COVID-19: Rev 6:8 and 9:18

[David1701]

12 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

This new fad to say Jesus had short hair and no beard actually is an ancient Roman idea (see pic). Some people use such art to prove Jesus looked clean shaven and short hair, but its actually cultural approbation, just like in China Jesus looks Oriental (see pic).  

However Jesus had a beard because the Law says, “'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.” (Leviticus 19:27) and Jesus being a Son of David (Romans 1:1-9) would have blended in. 

The Bible, not a fad, says that it's a shame for a man to have long hair (except for the Nazarite vow, which is an exception).  I can't speak for others, but I said nothing about Jesus not having a beard.

1 Cor. 11:14-16 (KJV)

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and in his apostolic authority, reminds the Corinthians that even nature teaches that men should have short hair and that long hair is a shame.  In other words, God's natural order is that women have long hair and men have short hair.

If anyone wants to be contentious about this, then he should know that the apostles had no such custom as the contentious person (i.e. the one arguing against men having short hair and/or women having long hair).

In the sculptures of the catacombs, the women have close-fitting head dresses, while the men have short hair.

There will always be the odd rebellious person (male or female) who wants to go against God's natural order, but at least he is showing his heart in what he does, so that others can discern.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by David1701
typo

[Fidei Defensor]

9 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The Bible, not a fad, says that it's a shame for a man to have long hair (except for the Nazarite vow, which is an exception).  I can't speak for others, but I said nothing about Jesus not having a beard.

1 Cor. 11:14-16 (KJV)

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and in his apostolic authority, reminds the Corinthians that even nature teaches that men should have short hair and that long hair is a shame.  In other words, God's natural order is that women have long hair and men have short hair.

If anyone wants to be contentious about this, then he should know that the apostles had no such custom as the contentious person (i.e. the one arguing against men having short hair and/or women having long hair).

In the sculptures of the catacombs, the women have close-fitting head dresses, while the man have short hair.

There will always be the odd rebellious person (male or female) who wants to go against God's natural order, but at least he is showing his heart in what he does, so that others can discern.

 

Well if Jesus has no long hair upon His Return, I’ll be ok with that. But I think in the time of Christ, long hair was common. I’ll find some sources, give me some time. 

I cited the Nazarite Vow, which requires long hair. 

As for Paul’s statement on long hair, that is something to consider. The question is was this for all churches or just that church? Like when he said “women cannot teach,”  (pythonesses, 1 Timothy 2:12) but praises women ministers like Phoebe (Romans 6:1) elsewhere. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Fidei Defensor
Added some verses

[BeauJangles]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

The Bible, not a fad, says that it's a shame for a man to have long hair (except for the Nazarite vow, which is an exception).  I can't speak for others, but I said nothing about Jesus not having a beard.

1 Cor. 11:14-16 (KJV)

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him

Ignoring my posts and the truth as usual, Dave?

12 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

This is simply untrue. None of us were there two thousand years ago. Some Jewish men including the priests during those days were their beards and hair long. Some did not. You're making an incorrect assumption. I'm sorry, but this is surmising. 

The Apostle Paul was a citizen of Rome and the Romans typically did wear their hair short and were by majority clean shaven. These were the styles for each cultures at this time during historical account. You need to read this scripture in correct context here. 

1 Corinthians 11:14 ¹⁴Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Notice, this is his opinion and NOT an ordinance from the Holy Ghost? You are out of order on this. 

You should know the difference between NATURE ITSELF TEACH YOU as to GOD HIMSELF TELL  YOU etc., etc.? Again, you're totally taking that passage out of the context of correctness. Sorry, you are wrong on that. Erroneous call, dear brother. 

P.S. And have a nice day! 

Edited July 20, 2020 by BeauJangles

[BeauJangles]

For the record, Jesus did NOT wear a flat top... 

[Fidei Defensor]

3 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

For the record, Jesus did NOT wear a flat top... 

I am also sure he didn’t wear dreadlocks. 

[BeauJangles]

5 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am also sure he didn’t wear dreadlocks. 

No, it's not likely he wore Rasta Dreads. It is possible he just may have worn payots or peyos. 

By the way, I personally know a Messianic Rabbi here in our city who wears his hair long in a braid in back and peyots or peyos as they are known. He's came from South America, but was was born in Israel. His wife he met after he moved there had converted to reformed Judaism, later also became Messianic. They're both really wonderful people. I'm glad they are here. Rabbi Ravi's wife is Hispanic. 

 

Payot - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payot

Payot are worn by some men and boys in the Orthodox Jewish community based on an interpretation of the Biblical injunction against shaving the "sides" of one's head. Literally, pe'ah means "corner, side, edge". There are different styles of payot among Haredi / Hasidic, Yemenite, and Chardal Jews.

• Babylonian Talmud: Makkot 20a
• Torah: Leviticus 19:27

• Shulchan Aruch: Yoreh Deah 181
• Mishneh Torah: Avodath Kokhavim 12:6  

  1. How Do Hasidic Jews Curl Their Sidelocks? - Jew in the City

     https://jewinthecity.com/2019/05/how-do-hasidic...

     Thanks for your question. Honestly, I had no idea how chasidim curl their payes – in fact, I had literally never given the matter a moment’s thought! I asked the colleague to whom I turn when I’m stumped and he also had no idea. He directed me to another colleague, from a Hasidic background, who told me that the barber perms the payes.

  2. Why Do Hasidic Jews Have Sidecurls? | The Hasidic World

     https://hasidicworld.wordpress.com/2017/06/23/why...

     Jun 23, 2017 · Hasidic Jews wear sidecurls or "peyos" to differentiate themselves from others, as a stringency in Jewish law, and as a mystical/kabbalistic practice. Unsure what I mean by sidecurls? Here is a picture of a Hasidic Jew with sidecurls: Now, let's dig a little deeper to truly understand the three primary reasons why Hasidic Jews wear…

  3. Why Do Orthodox Jewish Men Have Sidecurls? - Jew in the City

     https://jewinthecity.com/2018/06/why-do-orthodox-jewish-men-have-sidecurls

     Those sidecurls are called “peiyot” in Hebrew, meaning corners. This is commonly Yiddishized as “peiyes” and is usually rendered in English in a variety of less-phonetically-accurate spellings, including “payes” and “peyot.” (By the way, the common English-language term is “sidelocks,” not “sidecurls.”)

  4. Why do some Orthodox Jewish men wear side curls? Do they ...

     https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-Orthodox-Jewish...

     Firstly, they are only curly if you have curly hair or put rollers in them… but seriously, the sidelocks are called PAYOT. Payot are worn by some men and boys in the orthodox Jewish community based on an interpretation of the (biblical) Torah injunction against shaving the "corners" of one's head. Literally, pe'ah means corner/side/ edge.

     Why do some Jews wear payot -- strands or ringlets of hair ...	Mar 23, 2020
     Are Hasidic Jews the only Orthodox Jewish Group where the ...	Jun 19, 2018
     Why do some Jewish orthodox men (especially young men ...
     Why do Orthodox Jews have long sideburns and large hats ...

     See more results

  5. Hasidic Jewish Hair – Women & Men Orthodox Info

     https://www.brooklynunpluggedtours.com/hasidic...

     Hasidic Jewish men typically wear sidecurls and a beard. The sidecurls - called "Payos" - are usually in front of each ear, extending downwards. They can be long and often curly. The curls are not based on any scriptural rule - they are just a style that has become widespread.

  6. Why Do Some Chassidic Jews Have Long Sidelocks (Peyot ...

     https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/...

     It should first be pointed out that, contrary to the common misconception, leaving sidelocks (peyot) is not just a “chassidic” thing; it’s a Jewish thing.. The Torah states, “Do not round off [the hair] at the edges of your heads.”1 The Talmud explains that the term “edges” refers to the hair between the ears and the temples. “Rounding out the edges” refers to removing the ...

   

Edited July 20, 2020 by BeauJangles

[David1701]

11 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Well if Jesus has no long hair upon His Return, I’ll be ok with that. But I think in the time of Christ, long hair was common. I’ll find some sources, give me some time. 

Whether or not it was common (it certainly wasn't amongst the Romans, or the Christians in the catacombs) is irrelevant, since it is God's created order and that is what matters.

Quote

I cited the Nazarite Vow, which requires long hair. 

And I've already agreed that that was an exception (almost always temporary, except Samson, and the hair was cut off at the end of it).

Quote

As for Paul’s statement on long hair, that is something to consider.

Well, that's big of you.  Hey, Paul, Fidei Defensor thinks that your Holy Spirit-inspired statement, in apostolic authority, declaring God's created order, is "something to consider"!

Quote

The question is was this for all churches or just that church? Like when he said “women cannot teach,” (pythonesses, 1 Timothy 2:12) but praises women ministers like Phoebe (Romans 6:1) elsewhere.

God's created order is for everyone, obviously.  There are only the exceptions of the vow of the Nazarite and medical conditions.

Regarding women and teaching, this is a larger subject; but I'll briefly touch on it here.

1 Tim. 2:12-14 (Darby)

12 but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;
13 for Adam was formed first, then Eve:
14 and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression.

Paul gives two reasons why women are not to teach or exercise authority over man (in the assemblies).

1) Adam was formed first and Eve was made as a helper for him. - a matter of authority

2) Adam was not deceived but Eve was. - a matter of a tendency to being deceived

These reasons clearly apply universally.

Titus 2:3-5 (ESV)

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,
5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Older women are, however, to train the younger ones in those things pertaining to a woman's role.  This will, of necessity, involve teaching about a woman's role.

[BeauJangles]

50 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Whether or not it was common (it certainly wasn't amongst the Romans, or the Christians in the catacombs)

I believe that was mentioned previously. The Greeks also wore short hair. Certain sects in India such as Sadhu holy men and Sikh militia do not cut their hair, back to ancient Phoenicians, Philistines, going up in time a bit, the Gauls, Vikings, over here in America, our native tribes, well then let's see. 

I guess that takes out the ducks in your shooting gallery one by one pretty well there. Do you have any more examples but for Romans or Greeks, which many Christians were from? I believe Paul ministered to them also. Looks like you're out of ammo already, Dave. No points scored on this one for you. 

50 minutes ago, David1701 said:

And I've already agreed that that was an exception (almost always temporary, except Samson, and the hair was cut off at the end of it).

Just because Delilah cut off Samson's hair doesn't mean he didn't fully intend to keep it. You don't think so? Well, you'd be wrong again on that also. Many Nazarites vow for life, not like young Buddhist boy priests who serve one or more years head shaved and go back to secular life. Where do you get these misnomers from? 

Oh, well. You have serious issues. Here's a link of interesting information for you. 

 

The Long History of Why We’re Still So Angry About Long Hair

https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/the-long...

Sep 27, 2017 · The Long History of Why We’re Still So Angry About Long Hair. 1. Hating on men with long hair is unBiblical. In St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians he asks, “Doth not nature itself teach you that if a man... 2. It was customary for men in Ancient Roman to keep their hair short, explains Robert ...

51 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Well, that's big of you.  Hey, Paul, Fidei Defensor thinks that your Holy Spirit-inspired statement, in apostolic authority, declaring God's created order, is "something to consider"!

Including an attitude adjustment necessity needs as well. You still have some distinction difficulties understanding Paul's personal Roman opinions of men AND now women here also included I see. Nevermind all that right now, we'll get to it. Here's some other information.

You need to understand the historical opinions of Paul also as a native Roman citizen and his personal style. Or at least you should try to understand. This scripture is not a commandment from the Holy Ghost and you need to fully realize this. Taking things out of context is common. 

1 Corinthians 11:14 KJV ¹⁴Doth not even nature itself * (NOT GOD) teach you, teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

The nature itself * is a thing and not the Holy Ghost, Dave. Well, here's some come up in time and styles returning to more ancient days. I think you know this, right? I would think so. I guess legalism is your thing? 

Hairstyle - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairstyle

In Western countries in the 1960s, both young men and young women wore their hair long and natural, and since then it has become more common for men to grow their hair. During most period in human history when men and women wore similar hairstyles (length) as in the 1920s and 1960s, it has generated significant social concern and approbation.

52 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Regarding women and teaching, this is a larger subject; but I'll briefly touch on it here.

Why? 

[BeauJangles]

bump

[BeauJangles]

Just now, ChickenCoop said:

This has become quite a hair raising thread. 

Maybe.  Some are having difficulties with doctrine and biblical misinterpretations.