The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[Guest theElect777]

15 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Perhaps the falling away is a lot of pre-tribbers get discouraged when they see they are still here for the tribulation. 

It is hilarious how Thessalonians is Paul speaking about how we will be with our dead loved ones one day and they turned that into a pre-trib rapture.   Even more hilarious how they claim to be saved and purposefully IGNORE the very words of Christ (God) in Matthew 24.   They will definitely be like lambs to the slaughter when they realize this 150 year old myth from a known HERETIC doesn't take place how they have twisted and manipulated the Word of God.   The Bible explains how adding to God's Word will bring upon you damnation.   The pre-trib rapture is full of God's Word being twisted and added to.   I feel for them.  They actually believe they are more special than any persecuted Believer we read about within the first 15 Centuries.

[iamlamad]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:28 AM, DeighAnn said:

Where exactly is the "trib" delineated or laid out in Revelation? 

The witnesses arrive a few days before.  I would do the math but that takes me too long,  but you probably could pretty easy. Something about days being longer than moons or months and when all is said and done they have like 10 days more from what I remember.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

...

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
 

The question was, "where exactly is the "trib" delineated or laid out in Revelation.

For the answer you show the story of the Two witnesses. You wrote: "the two witnesses arrive a few days before..." Before what? Before the trib?

First, let's define "the trib." Most people, when they think "the trib" are thinking of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. My question then would be, 

Where exactly is Daniel's 70th week delineated or laid out in Revelation?" It is obvious you don't know. 

When God began teaching me Revelation, He spoke and I heard His words. He said that I could find the "exact midpoint clearly marked" in Revelation. Then, almost as an afterthought, He added that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." When He said that, He downloaded some information that came without words: the REASON i could find the entire week clearly marked AFTER finding the exact midpoint clearly marked would be that God would use the SAME MARKER. 

What can others gain from what God said to me? They can believe or not believe. It is up to each hearer. I found the exact midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet. I instantly flipped my bible to the 7th vial and read "It is done." I knew at that instant I had found what He sent me to find. But I flipped quickly to the 7th seal and found the 30 minutes of silence. 

Therefore, the answer to the question: where is the 70th week delineated in Revelation? It is marked out by the 7's: the 7th seal STARTS the week, the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT and the 7th vial ENDS the week. 

[iamlamad]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:28 AM, DeighAnn said:

Where exactly is the rapture shown in Revelation in relation to the "Trib?"
If by rapture you mean 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is so simple it will blow you away:
Jesus returns,
at the same time Satan is bound 1000 yrs
at the same time we all are changed
It is called the Lords Day, 1000 yrs

The only time confusion comes into play is when another "return" or "coming" is added to the WORD. 

The SECOND THAT HAPPENS

EVERYTHING ABOUT HIS RETURN COMES INTO QUESTION. 
ALL THE VERSES THAT SPEAK TO HIS RETURN COME INTO QUESTION.  
THE TIMING OF HIS RETURN COMES INTO QUESTION

ASK YOURSELF, WOULD GODS WORD,  SO SPECIFIC AS TO DIVIDE CLEAN  FOODS FROM  UNCLEAN FOODS

LEAVE WHAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST MIRACLES ever seen by flesh man
without a single verse of it's own?

LOOK AT THE DETAILS (though misunderstood) about the coming Messiah given in the OT.  Where He would be born, to whom He would be born, the bloodline He would come from, where He would travel, where He would grow etc....

LOOK AT THE LACK OF DETAILS of a PRE TRIB Body of Christ rap.  When does it happen, to whom does it happen, what happens after that, what happens on earth after that etc...

LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS on earth created IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE SATAN IS ANYONE OTHER THAN SATAN, impossible to "deceive" anyone, impossible for the earth to recover for years with billions of bodies to dispose of and complete restructuring of the system.  
AND WHY IS THERE NOT ONE WORD OF THE PRE TRIB BODY OF CHRIST IN HEAVEN AND WHAT HAPPENS?  DO THEY GO UP FOR THE WAR THAT RAGES BEFORE SATAN IS KICKED OUT.  WHAT ABOUT THE 1/2 HOUR OF SILENCE.  SEEMS TO ME HEAVEN HAS ENOUGH GOING ON WITH OUT THE ADDITION OF A COUPLE BILLION PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN TESTED OR JUDGED YET.

It is so simple it will blow you away:
Jesus returns,
at the same time Satan is bound 1000 yrs
at the same time we all are changed
It is called the Lords Day, 1000 yrs

We have a good clear picture of Christ's coming to Armageddon in Rev 19. That would be "Jesus returns,"

at the same time Satan is bound 1000 yrs  You are mistaken on Satan bound at the same time: the first thing that happens is ARMAGEDDON. That is going to take TIME. Then probably the next event after Armageddon will be the sheep and goat judgment. So you are in error already.

at the same time we all are changed  We have two scriptures about this: 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 & 5.  1 Cor. text gives us no timing information, but the Thes. text does give us timing:

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we [in Christ] which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 ¹ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Notice how Paul brings up "the day of the Lord" just 3 verses AFTER the church is caught up. Why would Paul do that? He is telling us that the DAY will follow hard after the rapture - as if the rapture will trigger THE DAY.  Paul does not stop there.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Then WHEN? Notice: right after his mention of "the Day of the Lord" he talks of "sudden destruction." Why would Paul do that? He is telling us that the Day of the Lord will BEGIN with "sudden destruction." But Paul does not stop there.

 

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Notice: Paul now gives us a paradigm: a display of two groups of people that will get two different results at the same moment of time.

Ye, You, Ye, We, Us are all of those "in Christ."  On the other hand, "they" are of the other group.  Notice that for those "in Christ," god sets no appointments with His wrath. (The appointments for wrath are for "THEY.") 

Note carefully: those "in Christ" "obtain salvation." What does Paul mean here? HOW do we obtain "salvation?" Paul will tell us:

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. See? How did Paul end off verse 17 above? "so shall we ever be with the Lord." THAT is how we get to "live together with Him." We get raptured. 

To sum it up, what is Paul teaching?

1. Suddenly, when people are saying "peace and safety" the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. NO WARNING. (The DAY comes as a thief.) 
2. A moment after the dead in Christ rise, TWO groups of people get TWO different results:

   A. Those in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him."
   B. Those that Paul called "they"  - those not in Christ - they get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. And Paul is telling us that sudden destruction is the start of God's WRATH (God hath not appointed us to wrath) and the start of the Day of the Lord or the day of His wrath.

Just what is this "sudden destruction?" In Matthew 27 we read: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." In Rev. 11 we read: 

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Notice, two different verses show us a bad earthquake when God raises the dead. In Matthew 27 it appears it was the elders of the Old Testament that God rose up when Jesus rose. What really happens at a resurrection? Bodies turn to dust over time. However, at some level, perhaps at the QUARK level or even below that, each particle has a name on it. And at the sound of the trumpet, every particle that once made up a believer's body will fly together: INSTANTLY. Some of those particles that once made up a believer's body could be miles apart from other particles. It will make no difference: God will fly those particles together in an instant of time and REFORM that body. 

What am I saying? When God raises the dead in Christ, that resurrection is going to cause a WORLDWIDE earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be found around the world. This earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. It will begin an instant after the dead bodies fly up out of their graves. I know of people that had very vivid dreams of the rapture; and in their dream, the earth JUST STARTED to quake as they were caught up. So WE get "salvation" (Raptured or caught up) while THEY get "sudden destruction" from a worldwide earthquake.

Summary: A moment after the rapture,. THE DAY OF THE LORD starts - and it starts with Paul's "Sudden destruction" earthquake.  So at the time of the rapture it is "the age of grace." but this age ENDS and the DAY of the LORD BEGINs.

--------church age ----age of grace---> || rapture ||-->The Day of the Lord--->the 70th week.

Notice: we are living in the church age, but it will END SUDDENLY with the rapture. The next moment in time will be DAY OF THE LORD time. Grace will have ended.  Our dispensation  - the fullness of the Gentiles - will END. The DAY will begin instantly after. 

This is Paul's message in 1 thes. 4 & 5.  It will be GRACE - then WRATH. (There will be NO TIME BETWEEN)

Where then in Revelation can we find the end of the age of grace and the start of the Day of the Lord? 

Only ONE PLACE.  Rev. 6:

The martyrs of the church age:

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The START of judgment and the DAY of the LORD:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice: verses 9 to 11 tells us of the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was surely one of them. they wonder how long it is going to be before judgment comes and the murderers are judged. God tells them they have to wait for their complete number to be killed as they were killed - martyred during the age of grace or church age martyrs. 

What would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the end of the church age. the next martyr after that would be a Day of the Lord martyr.

In short, they are told they must wait for the rapture to end the church age, and THEN judgment will begin. So verse 12 begins that judgment they were crying out for: Notice verse 17: it is the start of the DAY OF THE LORD. 

What is this telling us? 

The rapture of the church - the catching up of the church - has to come after the 5th seal but before the 6th seal. We are not apppointed to wrath - and wrath begins with the sudden destruction earthquake. (I hope you have noticed that the 6th seal is the very first earthquake listed in Revelation.)

Is there any other proof that the rapture happened (will happen) before the 6th seal start of "THE DAY?"  Yes, there is. John SAW the raptured church shortly after the 6th seal start of the DAY.

 

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

¹⁰ And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Think about it: perhaps 50 generations of believers all in one place at one time. Perhaps just the dead in Christ will make up several BILLION believers! (it would take over 30 years to count to one billion!) Add to that the final generation: those alive and in Christ. Add to that all the children at the time of the rapture. We are talking many BILLIONS of people in one place at one time. OF COURSE it is the raptured church. Don't doubt this!

Now, in summary, read:

Rev. 19:

⁶ And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Notice, many believers already in heaven; Notice: the marriage takes place: IN HEAVEN. Notice, after the marriage, the supper takes place: IN HEAVEN. Then, AFTER the marriage, and AFTER the supper:

Jesus descends:

 

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The resurrected church and the angels descend with Him:

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

¹⁶ And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

The Battle of Armageddon:

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

¹⁸ That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

¹⁹ And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

²¹ And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Please show us a verse ANYWHERE HERE that could possibly be the rapture. It cannot be found. 

Take CAREFUL NOTE: if the rapture was as Jesus descends, the church would MISS the marriage and supper. This is how silly a posttrib rapture theory is: it does not fit what is written: it is imagination without substance. 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by iamlamad

[DeighAnn]

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now did I miss something there?

But of that day and hour knowet no man, followed by what the days will be like before HIS return, that return no man knows the hour of.  

when Christ returns,  Christ returns AFTER the fallen angels have been on the earth
just like Noah got in the ark AFTER the fallen angels were on the earth.  



Do we agree that:   IN order for it to be like in the days of Noah, Satan and his angels will have had to have been kicked out of heaven?   Noahs days having fallen angels all the way up until the time Noah got in the ark and GOD DESTROYED THEM, THOSE WHO DIDN' T get in the ark.  All those who didn't believe the Word of God perished, correct?  All who didn't make it to the ark, if it were a different time could be said to have taken a Mark of a different sort, don't you think?
 

So we agree this verse could  NEVER  ever  belong to pre trib  BECAUSE pre trib is pre Satan and the fallen angels, NOT KNOWING the hour is in direct relationship to fallen angels upon the earth   Correct??

Fallen angels means THE TRIB is in full swing, completely up and running, right?   
 

[DeighAnn]

Is pre trib supposed to be before the beginning of sorrows too?  

[DeighAnn]

On 8/5/2020 at 1:48 PM, iamlamad said:

It has to be a VERY SIGNIFICANT "departing," one that all would recognize as: "Ah! So that is what Paul was talking about.

It is very significant because it is significant TO GOD, Who's will it is,  that none should perish. 


There wont be any question,  as the "the whole world" will be deceived. 
THAT in itself IS a great falling away. 

And that would mean a great many Christians on earth to fall away.   O

Only those with eyes to see will see it and its significance.  The rest don't know or don't care or are deceived you know, have received the mark.  

[Revelation Man]

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church.

I am writing (make that trying to write)  a paper and as you WILL SEE I need help (more like an overhaul) with its accuracy and presentation.  I have many "bits" that I believe ask many of the the questions and give many of the answers I am trying to explain but every time I go back and "revise" it keeps getting  worse. I am looking for any important things I have missed, answers to questions I do not have.  I am setting out a "fleece" of sorts.   It could be God just wants me to do it on my own (He has before).   I will soon have my answer either way.  

The "proof" given for the Church being raptured before the tribulation is given by  (have missed some important parts, I'm sure I have)

Revelation 19 proves the Church marries the Lamb in Heaven then returns while the Beast is STILL RULING on earth. In Rev. 4 and 5 we see the Church/24 Elders who have three things mentioned in Rev. 2 and 3 by those that OVERCOME. In Rev. 4:4 they have Crowns, White Robes and sit at Gods Throne. In Rev. 5:9 they are called THE REDEEMED, Angels do not need redeeming. Its the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened by Jesus.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

1.  Its lack of being mentioned after Revelation chapters 2 and 3.  
2.  We are not appointed to Gods Wrath
3   I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation
4   the word "day" is sometimes "days", and  "door" is mentioned "doors"
5   The Word uses "return and cometh", and they mean different things 
6  Gods trump is not the last trump

The Last Trump is referring to the Last Feast Trump that ALWAYS ENDED the Harvest (Pentecost we are in = The Harvest of souls) and announced that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle were nigh at hand. Israel has to ATONE before the 70th week can come to pass, then they will TABERNACLE (which means to Dwell with God) with God/Jesus for 1000 years in Jerusalem. 

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

7  Only Israel is blinded - it is Jacobs trouble

Israel is blinded as a NATION.......All Nations are blinded, look around you, do you see any Governments that rule as God would? I don't, in Luke 4 Satan told Jesus ALL THESE NATIONS have been given me, and I do as I will with them. Israel was different, but they became like the Gentile world. God wanted them to take the gospel unto the whole world, instead they rejected Christ and would have taken a form of Judaism to the world, so God forsook them for nigh 2000 years. He did not forsake INDIVIDUAL Jews however, all men have a chance to serve God by Faith alone, be they Jew or Gentile. God blinded the Israeli NATION because they loved the world more than they loved God.  (As a whole entity/Nation)

Jacob's troubles is meant to get Israel to REPENT. Just before the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath starts at the 1260 midway event, Israel repents (ATONES) when the Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, they flee Judea at the 1290 (AoD) and this gives them 30 days to make it to Petra at the 1260. The Two-witnesses are only sent to reach the Jews. The Church is no longer needed. Every man on earth has heard the Gospel by this time, our mission is COMPLETE. The END is the 70th week. 

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Zechariah 13:8:9 says 1/3 of the Jews repent and 2/3 will not repent and thus will perish. So, it comes full circle, ALL Israel will be saved, not every Jew, but the Nation of Israel is preserved.

BUT....All nations are Blinded, Israel went from Gods chosen Nation to a reprobate nation like all the Gentile Nations. 

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

8  Jews must suffer for rejecting Christ

This is a MISNOMER, the Nation of Israel were rejected because they rejected God, but God doesn't charge each individual with the sins of a Nation, else Paul and Peter would have been rejected also. Israel had to be rejected, else they would have ACCOMPLISHED Galatians 3, and would have taught the Gentiles to serve Jewish Customs//Traditions. Gal. 3 is not what some people say, it has nothing to do with all men of God being THE SAME, its just the opposite, God is telling the Gentiles, you don't have to BECOME JEWISH like those people are teaching you....."Who has bewitched you that you starting in the Spirit have gone to the FLESH WAYS". They were being told, in order to be of God you have to keep the Sabbath and Jewish Customs etc. etc. Thus Paul told them, HEY....All men, both Jews and Gentiles are one and the same in God's eyes. The inference is, those "Jewish Christians" that have been teaching you the Customs of Judaism are LYING, you do not have to become Jewish to be of God.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

9  Jesus comes as a thief in the night - unexpectedly  and to those who believe they have secured their house but they haven't

At the Pre trib Rapture.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

10 The tribulation is not for the church

True, but those Gentiles who get saved after the Rapture go through the Tribulation, they are the Remnant Church.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

11  Coming in the air is not coming all the way 

Reading John 20, it proves Jesus went to Heaven and came back AFTER he was Crucified with the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The Two Comings are over wrought with analysis. Its about the TWO ADVENTS, the Suffering Servant and the Conquering King.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

12 Two harvests

Actually THREE Harvests. The Church is Harvested in Rev. 14:14.....But that is a FLASHBACK: In Rev. 14:1 we see the 144,000 (Jews who Fled Judea unto Petra which might be 3-5 million Jews) are with Jesus on Mt. Zion, so they are "THE WHEAT" who are gathered into God's Barn. Then in Rev. 14:17-20 we see the "WICKED TARES" are placed into the Wrath of God's Wine-press, to be bundled up and BURNED 1000 years later. 

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

13 Noe and Lot are different events
14 He comes quickly, at an hour not known
15  only saints to stand
16  only saints to overcome the Overcomer
17  only saints to endure to the end

But why is the church being raptured?  What purpose of God is it serving?  IDK

The part about ENDURING to the end in Matt. 24 is speaking to Christians lives in general, Paul stated we run a Marathon. Noah and Lot were left in the midst of the trouble, as were the early churches for the exact same reason, their MISSIONS ON EARTH was not  yet accomplished. Jesus had not been born, so Noah, Lot, Abraham, Daniel, etc. etc all Jews had to remain until the SEED came and died for all mankind's sins. I mean, that is easy to see. NEXT: The Churches MISSION is to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto the ENDS OF THE WORLD, THEN...........the End will come !! Once that is accomplished, then we are no longer needed on this earth, so we are TAKEN TO Heaven, to Marry the Lamb. The Two-witnesses are sent to TURN Israel back unto God BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

We leave because our MISSION is complete.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

WHAT exactly are these end time churches to OVERCOME?  Certainly most churches are not having any problems, especially in America, freedom of religion and all.  Not like anyone is getting killed for being a Christian in this country.  People may not agree with each other but they aren't persecuting, not like other places.  Now I know that "the Overcomer" is being sent to the earth.  Are they going to have to overcome in heaven?  The Word says nothing on this.  Didn't Jesus tell us he has foretold us all things?  Why did He never speak about  this "pre tribulation" event?

 

These are not 70th week Churches (End Time) these are the CHURCH AGE that covers 2000 some odd years. Do you know how many millions of Christians have been killed for Jesus' name sake? THINK ABOUT IT. This is the WHOLE CHURCH PERIOD.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

Should I go on to give the explanations of what these "churches" look like in todays world here or wait?  I think it is important but is almost a different subject. 

The trials and tribulations remain same as everyone who has ever lived.  Since they wont be here for the tribulation of Satan, that cant be what is overcome.  These are the doctrines going to heaven with them.  How is that going to sit with GOD??   Is a "pre trib raputure" a good thing??

We overcome the WORLD/Satan by Jesus' Blood,  and laying down our lives, Rev. 12 tells us this.

Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Which he?  The one "Raptured" or the one staying?  

THIS ONE........The Church.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

This is the Church IN HEAVEN, they have the Gifts promised to those who OVERCOME.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

This next part of the church is even more confusing to me .  Is half this church STAYING and the other half going?

The ones PLAYING CHURCH can not got to Heaven with SIN in their lives. They will be like the 5 virgins shut out of the Wedding.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

Now this church certainly seems to be the only one that would really be "welcomed" in heaven at a"pre trib rapture" yet EVEN THEY ARE TOLD, to HOLD FAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN.  Who is it trying to take their crown?  If HE will make them "the synagogue of Satan" come to worship at their feet, wouldn't they be the ones trying to take it?  

 

These are TYPES.....Just like you might have a TYPE of anything, an Angry TYPE man, a Silent TYPE man, a Happy TYPE man, a Humble TYPE man, etc. etc. but over a 2000 year period those TYPES only represent specific types, not time periods. All 7 of those TYPES were in existence 2000 years ago, and now. Its an EXAMPLE unto us of what to be and WHAT NOT TO BE.

On 7/23/2020 at 11:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

I don't know how much convincing it would take to convince me that these churches are pre trib rapped, but so far that surface hasn't even been scratched.  

 

Well, explain Rev. 19,  the Marriage and COMING BACK while the Beast is still on earth. This is only hard and complicated to those who do not study hard enough IMHO, or to the stiff necked types who can never be wrong, but always are wrong.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

It is very significant because it is significant TO GOD, Who's will it is,  that none should perish. 

There wont be any question,  as the "the whole world" will be deceived. 
THAT in itself IS a great falling away. 

And that would mean a great many Christians on earth to fall away.   O

Only those with eyes to see will see it and its significance.  The rest don't know or don't care or are deceived you know, have received the mark.  

First off, a "falling away" means people were SOMEWHERE first, and then fell away from that position. However, Paul never gave any hint as to what was being departed FROM, until you really understand, He was talking about the departing of the church as in the gathering. 

If a falling away is what Paul had in mind, how would anyone know ENOUGH had fallen away to fit Paul's argument? 

The truth is, when one "falls away" two come in. The church is GROWING, not shrinking. "Falling away" is just a bad translation.

By the way, the church will be gone, so none of the church will "fall away." (but the church will suddenly depart!).

For those left behind, indeed the whole world will be deceived - all EXCEPT those whose names are written in heaven.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Is pre trib supposed to be before the beginning of sorrows too?  

The "beginning of sorrows" is church age. Jesus said, "the end is not yet," meaning, He is not yet talking of end times.