The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[The Light]

7 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Okay, let’s consider... Why in the world do some sibs even believe in any kind of pretrib or prewrath rapture?  If you are born again saints or if you are of the ElectIon, don’t you know that you were born in this final generation (the generation of the fig tree) for the greatest and most awesome purpose?  Do you  not know what it is?  Well here it is in Mark 13:11:   This is our destiny!

¹¹ But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

This is out of context. This is a verse for the Jews.

What does the Word say about the fig tree? It says there are two harvests in the fig tree, and of course the fig tree has two harvests.

The fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other gods. So the Gentiles will become the 1st harvest.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

What is the purpose of the Gentiles being the first harvest?

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

How do the Gentiles provoke the Jews to jealousy? The Gentiles are the 1st harvest, and the Jews will see it.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

There will be a harvest, a rapture before the time of Jacobs trouble. Jacobs trouble occurs in the 1st six seals. Bottom line, there will be a pretribulation rapture as the scriptures constantly show. If you don't see it, it is no great wonder as He is coming in a time you think not.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

You might rethink this logic, as 1st thes. 4 is not talking about the day of vengeance.

 

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Quote

Jesus quits reading in the temple right BEFORE day of vengeance, if "pre trib" was a truth Isaiah would have written it and Jesus would have stopped before it, but that just didn't happen

Sorry but I have no idea what you are referring to.

 

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

 

 

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.|Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
Luke 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luke 4:11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luke 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

. This is a verse for the Jews.

What does this say to you?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[The Light]

13 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

What does this say to you?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Those verses say I had better understand this

John 10

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And I should probably understand this

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And I should definitely understand this.

Dan 9

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Edited July 24, 2020 by The Light

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

What does the Word say about the fig tree?

So many its hard to choose.  

16 minutes ago, The Light said:

The Gentiles are the 1st harvest, and the Jews will see it.

WHO ARE THE GENTILES AGAIN? 

THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE SON OF GOD LORD AND SAVIOUR



OR YOU ARE TRYING TO DIVIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST  AND CAST OUT THE NATURAL BRANCHES AGAIN?   IF YOU ARE THEN YOU HAVE TO  GET AROUND THOSE WHO HAVE COME TO CHRIST NOT BEING GENTILES ANYMORE (NOT EVEN FOR THE PURPOSE OF DOCTRINES THAT NEED IT)  AND HAVING A NEW NAME,   "CHRISTIANS".  

[The Light]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

So many its hard to choose.  

WHO ARE THE GENTILES AGAIN? 

THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE SON OF GOD LORD AND SAVIOUR



OR YOU ARE TRYING TO DIVIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST  AND CAST OUT THE NATURAL BRANCHES AGAIN?   IF YOU ARE THEN YOU HAVE TO  GET AROUND THOSE WHO HAVE COME TO CHRIST NOT BEING GENTILES ANYMORE (NOT EVEN FOR THE PURPOSE OF DOCTRINES THAT NEED IT)  AND HAVING A NEW NAME,   "CHRISTIANS".  

Hmmm. Err, AHHHH. Well AAAAHHHHH. Yeah. The Word can speak for itself.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[Marathoner]

40 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Okay, let’s consider... Why in the world do some sibs even believe in any kind of pretrib or prewrath rapture?  If you are born again saints or if you are of the ElectIon, don’t you know that you were born in this final generation (the generation of the fig tree) for the greatest and most awesome purpose?  Do you  not know what it is?  Well here it is in Mark 13:11:   This is our destiny!

¹¹ But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

I'm in agreement with you, @SONshine. Confusion reigns when we humans (who know only in part) seek to impose our modern paradigms of reason upon the mind of God as revealed to us in the scriptures. "But that only applies to Jews" and whatnot only serves to lengthen the shadow cast by the schoolmaster which God provided in the example of fleshly Israel. The revealing of the Word made flesh is the culmination of our Father's plan of redemption prophesied in the third chapter of Genesis and spoken of by our brethren of old, the prophets who have the testimony of Christ. What does the book of Revelation tell us regarding the testimony of Jesus Christ?

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)

As for the identity of the Jew look no further than the words of the Apostle who informs us one is a Jew inwardly (circumcised of the heart), grafted into God's holy nation by the washing of the Lamb's blood and the sealing of His Holy Spirit. Where others see division I only perceive unity in Jesus Christ; when the Lord returns we who are still in this world shall be joined with those who went before us. This means Enoch... Job... Abraham... Moses... David... the witnesses and prophets of the Lord... and our forebears who believed in Christ Jesus after He was revealed in this flesh. I've never cared for distinctions such as "Old Testament saints" though I do understand why some make that distinction. I prefer to stick with the saints.  

I sympathize with anyone who fears suffering and terrible tribulation. Recalling the example of fleshly Israel we know that God's people endured much during their trek through the wilderness. An entire generation perished! We ourselves can expect no less in this life... how many have perished for the testimony of Christ over the course of two thousand years? We face powers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places; Joshua's war in the Promised Land is symbolic of the battle we face in this present age. As faithful Joshua (even he stumbled) carried out God's will so must we even in the face of tribulation the likes of which has never been witnessed in this world. 

No matter where we go the Lord is with us. What you shared above is the truth! 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Yeah, I know all about that pinpoint timing that you are referring to.

Matt 24

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The only timing in scripture that proves 'When?' is order of events. It's not a Dentist appointment.

It's: Beginning of sorrows, A of D, GT, The Signs, Jesus appearance, the Gathering; per Matthew.

From Paul: the rebellion and revealing precede the Coming and the Gathering.

This is pretty plain in any language. You know this as well.

No gathering at the end of the age is described dissociated from other events yet Pretrib insists it's so. 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

If I made a statement like - Isaiah didn't say there was not a pretribulation raputre so that proves it. That would be bad logic, as is most of what you have presented.

You said the above to DeighAnn. How does the reasoning that arrives at a pretrib gathering on lack of evidence differ from the above?

It's equally bad logic to use lattice, goodman, thief, dicessio, last week=trib=wrath, and bygone traditions as proof of an early gathering when a gathering is clearly laid out, and it only happens when Jesus comes in power and glory. 

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The only timing in scripture that proves 'When?' is order of events. It's not a Dentist appointment.

It's: Beginning of sorrows, A of D, GT, The Signs, Jesus appearance, the Gathering; per Matthew.

 

It's: Fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the 70th week begins, the beginning of sorrows, the daily sacrifice is taken away, the A of D, GT, the signs, Jesus appearance, the gathering from heaven and earth (70th week ends), the wrath of God; per the Word.

Quote

 

From Paul: the rebellion and revealing precede the Coming and the Gathering.

 

From Paul: the rebellion and revealing precede "A" Coming and the Gathering.

Quote

 

This is pretty plain in any language. You know this as well.

 

Here's some simple language.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Noah and the animals entered the ark as God commanded and after 7 day the flood was upon the earth.

So we have the Word speaking for itself. This is cut and dried, matter of fact. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. But your prejudice will not let you see the obvious. Your fear of acknowledging one FACT has you paralyzed from acknowledging the truth. You got your finger in the dike and know if you pull it out, the truth of the pretribulation rapture is going to begin tearing down the dam that holds back the truth.

Quote

No gathering at the end of the age is described dissociated from other events yet Pretrib insists it's so. 

 

Matthew, Paul and Jesus have pinpointed the gathering. That's a FACT. Then Jesus says that He will come in an hour that you think not. That's a FACT. How many facts are you going to dismiss. How many fingers and toes do you have in that dike?

 

Quote

 

You said the above to DeighAnn. How does the reasoning that arrives at a pretrib gathering on lack of evidence differ from the above?

 

The facts say that the gathering is AFTER the Great Tribulation. The facts also say that Jesus will come in an hour that you think not. Just because we can pinpoint the gathering does not mean that Jesus will not come in an hour that you think not.

Quote

 

It's equally bad logic to use lattice, goodman, thief, dicessio, last week=trib=wrath, and bygone traditions as proof of an early gathering when a gathering is clearly laid out, and it only happens when Jesus comes in power and glory. 

 

As you say, the gathering is clearly laid out. It is a gathering from heaven and earth. But are there more days that the Son of Man will come as lightning?

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

So the gathering is clearly laid out and yet Jesus comes in an hour that we think not. We are told that the Son of Man in His day will be as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven. And yet the Word clearly states that there is more than one day of the Son of Man. Gotta another finger in the dike?

Additionally, I don't think that the  last week=trib=wrath. I think that the last week = the tribulation= the 70th week = the time of Jacobs trouble. However the wrath of God is times, time and half a time and occurs AFTER the week is over.

Edited July 24, 2020 by The Light

[abcdef]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church.

I am writing (make that trying to write)  a paper and as you WILL SEE I need help (more like an overhaul) with its accuracy and presentation.  I have many "bits" that I believe ask many of the the questions and give many of the answers I am trying to explain but every time I go back and "revise" it keeps getting  worse. I am looking for any important things I have missed, answers to questions I do not have.  I am setting out a "fleece" of sorts.   It could be God just wants me to do it on my own (He has before).   I will soon have my answer either way.  

The "proof" given for the Church being raptured before the tribulation is given by  (have missed some important parts, I'm sure I have)

 
2.  We are not appointed to Gods Wrath

DeighAnn,

We are not appointed to God's eternal wrath. 

This is a good example of pre-trib's assumptions that are without scriptural evidence.

1 Thess 5:9 is about the eternal wrath.

What proof of scripture do you have that this scripture is about a 7 times period in the future and not the eternal wrath of God?

1 Thess 5:9, along with others, is taken out of context and falsely applied exclusively to a 7 times period in the future when they are, in context, speaking about the eternal wrath.

Just because they both use the word "wrath" does not change the application of time periods of the verses.

What scriptures can you supply to verify this connection outside of the fact that they both use the word wrath?