Human nature: Good or Bad?

[Fidei Defensor]

7 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

Somebody had to sin first, and the first people to walk the earth would have held that honor, since we've all sinned. It is interesting but I don't see it's import.

Well Original Sin has been importand to the Church for 2,000yrs. More importantly it is important to salvation. Christ came to reverse the curse that is on us because of Adam and Eve. It is because of Original Sin we were doomed, bit thanks be to God He cane in the flesh to pay for Original Sin with His blood and sacrifice, “But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree” (Galatians 3:13). The curse of sin and its taint from Adam and Eve had to be covered by Christ’s sacrifice: 

“1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person-though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:1-21)

[johnthebaptist]

4 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Well Original Sin has been importand to the Church for 2,000yrs. More importantly it is important to salvation. Christ came to reverse the curse that is on us because of Adam and Eve. It is because of Original Sin we were doomed, bit thanks be to God He cane in the flesh to pay for Original Sin with His blood and sacrifice, “But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree” (Galatians 3:13). The curse of sin and its taint from Adam and Eve had to be covered by Christ’s sacrifice: 

“1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person-though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:1-21)

We can't decide to sin and then blame Adam and Eve, I don't believe. There will be a judgment day - I think it best we repent before that (preferably now) rather than sin and then tell the Lord it was Adam and Eve's fault.

[Fidei Defensor]

6 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

We can't decide to sin and then blame Adam and Eve, I don't believe. There will be a judgment day - I think it best we repent before that (preferably now) rather than sin and then tell the Lord it was Adam and Eve's fault.

Its in two pieces, we own our sins, they are ours, but the sinful nature came into being in us because of Adam and Eve. We don’t blame Adam and Eve for our sins, but they are culpable, for had they not sinned, we’d be in paradise in Eden eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. 

[johnthebaptist]

9 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Its in two pieces, we own our sins, they are ours, but the sinful nature came into being in us because of Adam and Eve. We don’t blame Adam and Eve for our sins, but they are culpable, for had they not sinned, we’d be in paradise in Eden eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. 

On Judgment Day, I think you are betting off saying, "I repented of my sin," rather than saying, "I didn't repent of my sin because it was Adam and Eve's fault."

[Fidei Defensor]

15 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

On Judgment Day, I think you are betting off saying, "I repented of my sin," rather than saying, "I didn't repent of my sin because it was Adam and Eve's fault."

I will say “I repent of my sin,” and declare, “Christ has cleansed me of sin.” 

But Adam and Eve will be held accountable for introducing the virus of sin to mankind. 

Just as the teacher had harsher judgement, “Not many of you should be teachers my brothers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment,” (James 3:1), and woe to the one whom the tenpting comes through, “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting/ Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come” (Matthew 18:7). 

I own my sin, but woe to Adam wnd Eve for who the tenpting/ sinful nature came into the world. 

When we sin we are guilty, but our nature that desires sin came from our ancestors (Genesis 3). This does not make us exempt for being accountable for sin. 

Parable:

We are a like a computer, the orignal computers A and E downloaded software that had Malware on it which puts a virus in all computers. The individual computers are responsible for  clicking on other viruses like Trojan, but the desire to even click on viruses comes from the original Malware. 

We are responsible for our sins, but the nature that craves to sin originated at the Fall (Genesis 3). 

At Judgement Day we plead, “we repent,” and Christ declares, “not guilty, they are in my Book (of the Lamb).” 

Its not about blaming Adam and Eve and trying to avoid our confession, but we cannot ignore from whence Original Sin came from. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[johnthebaptist]

16 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I will say “I repent of my sin,” and declare, “Christ has cleansed me of sin.” 

But Adam and Eve will be held accountable for introducing the virus of sin to mankind. 

Just as the teacher had harsher judgement, “Not many of you should be teachers my brothers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment,” (James 3:1), and woe to the one whom the tenpting comes through, “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting/ Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come” (Matthew 18:7). 

I own my sin, but woe to Adam wnd Eve for who the tenpting/ sinful nature came into the world. 

When we sin we are guilty, but our nature that desires sin came from our ancestors (Genesis 3). This does not make us exempt for being accountable for sin. 

Parable:

We are a like a computer, the orignal computers A and E downloaded software that had Malware on it which puts a virus in all computers. The individual computers are responsible for  clicking on other viruses like Trojan, but the desire to even click on viruses comes from the original Malware. 

We are responsible for our sins, but the nature that craves to sin originated at the Fall (Genesis 3). 

At Judgement Day we plead, “we repent,” and Christ declares, “not guilty, they are in my Book (of the Lamb).” 

Its not about blaming Adam and Eve and trying to avoid our confession, but we cannot ignore from whence Original Sin came from. 

Well, we'll be judged on what we did, not what we say we did, of course.

[Guest theElect777]

3 hours ago, Glory To God said:

 

So was God wrong in his judgment to punish Adam the way he did? 

Absolutely Not!   Predestination alone reveals God's intentions and plan here.   God created a system of Right/Wrong in the Garden.   Adam, even not understanding the consequences, still broke God's one rule.   Adam got what he deserved.

[ReneeIW]

6 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

I trust you are careful to observe this teaching of Paul’s never to speak when you are in a church building: 

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 1 Cor 14:33-36 RSV

What does this have to do with the topic we were discussing? This reminds me of my Philosophy professor who would bring up a verse in Deuteronomy that he believed allowed men to rape women. Or he’d say the Bible allows slavery or killing of innocent children. It would have nothing to do with the topic at hand, but he’d bring it up whenever he was challenged.

I don’t think Christians should behave that way.

As far as Paul telling women to keep quiet in church, that is a different discussion and I’m sure if you started a thread on it people would be happy to teach you about what that verse means. As for me, I’m at the point that the only things I want  to say in Church are,“Amen,Praise God, Thank you, and please forgive me.” So, if Paul was actually giving a commandment from God, that is one that would be easy for me to follow.

[ReneeIW]

6 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

I don't think you will find it helpful to blame Adam or Eve for your mistakes.

I find it immensely helpful because it reminds me of my humanity and how much I am dependent on God and prayer to live the Christian life.

 

[johnthebaptist]

2 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

What does this have to do with the topic we were discussing? This reminds me of my Philosophy professor who would bring up a verse in Deuteronomy that he believed allowed men to rape women. Or he’d say the Bible allows slavery or killing of innocent children. It would have nothing to do with the topic at hand, but he’d bring it up whenever he was challenged.

I don’t think Christians should behave that way.

As far as Paul telling women to keep quiet in church, that is a different discussion and I’m sure if you started a thread on it people would be happy to teach you about what that verse means. As for me, I’m at the point that the only things I want  to say in Church are,“Amen,Praise God, Thank you, and please forgive me.” So, if Paul was actually giving a commandment from God, that is one that would be easy for me to follow.

You insist I agree with Paul in all things. Do YOU agree with Paul in all things? In other words, do you remain silent whenever you are in a church building?