When is the rapture?

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, this is an old argument and it's incorrect. This is how the Berean Bible renders the passage.

Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God and they will reign upon the earth"" 

 

I don't see how that changes anything.  "Worthy ARE You, to take the scroll and open its seals, because You WERE slain, and by Your blood You PURCHASED for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God and they will reign upon the earth"

Additionally, it doesn't take into account the fact that there are 24 elders with white raiment and crowns.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

This is really the correct way to see it given the rest of the evidence of timing and identity. And I don't see the church present here where I do in Rev 7. So the lack of a presence of the church here and the obvious presence of the vast group in Rev 7 only leads to one conclusion;

The church is not present in Rev 5 and is in Rev 7. Maybe the elders are representatives of the church by they are not the church. It's not a metaphor.

Oh, you can see the Church there, but it's just not crystal clear. It's certainly crystal clear that the 24 elders are there with their crowns. You've already told me that you will begin looking for Him when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Not such a wise plan. He is coming when you think not, and you think not that He will come before the tribulation.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is a great deal more evidence than just the above. All the evidence has to be taken into account. While what you post is truth it's not the only truth nor is it more true than other truth. There isn't a hierarchy of truth where one fact or set of facts take precedence over other fact. When taken together and the body of evidence examined and fully considered is when we find understanding.

 

And it is exactly this great deal of evidence that proves that there will be two harvests even as the fig tree has two harvests.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is no contradiction in not knowing the day and the hour but knowing the general time and reading the existing global conditions. Day and hour are not a metaphor it's a time/space day and hour like Tuesday at noon. Since there are a lot of those moments there is no way to know which moment. 

 

Right, and you will be looking for armies around Israel, when instead you should realize that you can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

You think we are going through the tribulation. The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to the Jews and part of Israel will have it's blindness removed. The fullness of the Gentiles will come in when the pretribulation rapture occurs. We can escape all things that happen during the tribulation, and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Pretrib is fond of saying, "Well, if we know when it starts then we can just count the days, and then we will know which day, therefore all others are wrong." But Jesus said when speaking of the day of  GT, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Therefore we cannot know the day or hour because GT is cut short from any specific time period. We know it begins at or about the A of D but the end is cut short(one assumes that means from the end of the week) and the length is a mystery and the exact day is unknown.

 

I don't suspect your logic holds up because 70 weeks are determined upon the Jews. The week will not be cut short, the time period of the great tribulation will be cut short. And that can only happen one way.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

And I'm not telling you, Jesus is in Luke 21.

"When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

"So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. "

Until we see those things there is no coming or gathering. Pretrib says the opposite and says this is for Jews and not the church; not realizing the church is the Israel of God and if the church isn't Jewish then they are not the church.

 

He is talking to the Jews in those passages. Most of us realize that there is no difference between Gentile and Jew in the kingdom. Jesus will bring both folds with Him. However, it's all about timing and the FACT that part of Israel will not have it's blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So the verses you posted are for the Jews and those verses occur at the end of the 70th week. As for the Church, here is what is told to the Church.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There will be two raptures. You best get ready now.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, this was made up by Darby and others.

 

Baloney. I never read anything but the scriptures and came to the conclusion that there will be a pretrib rapture. I just understand that there will be two raptures so none of your arguments hold up against the truth.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

No where does scripture liken the GT associated with the end of the age and the coming of Christ as synonymous with the 70th week.

 

I know you are familiar with this scripture and already have an excuse figured out why as why this does not fulfill your statement. But your concoction is not factual, scriptural truth as all the information is here that proves that the 70 weeks are not complete.

Dan 9

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Jesus himself says GT begins after the A of D which is the midpoint of the week. We then can assume what Jesus talked about previous to the A of D in the Discourse is the first half of the week; and it is called the beginning of sorrows not GT or tribulation or the tribulation period or whatever else man's doctrine imposes to prove some ill conceived scenario.

So you are wrong because Jesus says,

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

For at that time there will be great tribulation,

This is not the end of the week, it's the midpoint.\

 

I saw no scripture that shows Jesus saying that the AOD happens in the middle of the week. What does Daniel say was revealed to him.

Daniel says that the daily sacrifice is ceased in the midst of the week. That occurs on day 1185. And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up there shall be 1290 days. That puts the abomination of desolation being set up on day 2475 which is toward the end of the week. Jesus returns 1335 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away. That will be day 2520.

Dan 9

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

¹² Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The dail

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The beast gets 42 months, exactly one half of the week. That 42 months begins at the A of D when the beast proclaims himself god in the temple. The wrath of God falls on the beast. Therefore the wrath of God in within the last half of the week during the reign of the beast.

 

The week is over when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. The end of the age happens with the coming of Jesus. That is also the end of the week. When the week ends the day of the Lord begins and lasts time, times and half a time. 42 months

Dan 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

³ And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

⁴ But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

⁵ Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

⁶ And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The wrath of God is impending at the 6th seal. The whole world knows it as the people of earth beg to be buried by the rocks so as not to face the One who sits on the Throne. This is before the end of the week. 

 

What you say is correct, except, When Jesus comes for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes, the week is over. Then the wrath of God and the day of the Lord begins. The wrath lasts 42 months.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 8/22/2020 at 4:37 AM, Moby said:

I have been looking for a good explanation on the timing of the rapture as there seems to be so much dissension out there among the brethren as to whether it happens before 7 years of tribulation, 3.5 years into the tribulation, or after the tribulation.

I am so tired of opening link after link where the teachers give nothing more than their opinions on when this event happens with the same verses that really have nothing to do with the timing of the rapture before, during, or after the tribulation.

Yeah, I get that, but I am afraid I will just offer you more links.

First are the simple reasons why I think as I do, from a scripture perspective, regarding the sequence of events, but one cannot get a date, just the order of things:

Next, I think also instructive, is to notice things that the Bible does not say:

I hope you choose to dig in, but I am not offended if you do not want to do the work of clicking a couple of times, it just saves me a lot of work typing it all out. Of course there is lots more, but after 40+ years of studying this, one might expect that, so this is just some concise points. May God bless you as you seek His truths!

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

You contend that those in heaven in Rev 5 are souls or spirits that will return with Christ for their new glorified bodies. Then you use Jesus as an example. Has it occurred to you that Jesus has already risen from the dead? So all you have done is prove my point. Those in heaven in Rev 5 have already risen pre trib and are already dressed in white raiment and have their gold crowns.

Not pre trib as you mean "pre trib", but from the time Christ rose (way way pre trib) until the time Christ returns as Lord of lords and King of kings there will be souls joining in heaven.  After all, that's where we came from.  
 
Risen are all those who died.  Those before Christ, were offered the same salvation as we and all those who have and will have died before Christ returns.  That all  who were ever put in the grave ,were not seen walking around, doesn't mean they didn't go.  Just enough for an example of proof that Christ conquered death.  
 

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now we either believe Christ is risen and when Christ returns if we should sleep before then, we come back with him, having risen ourselves,
or we don't.  

THOSE are the "elders" we see. 

The lack of mention of the multitude before and the mention after can only, at best, be surmised by us, as It Was Not Written nor explained by the Word.  The gentiles were offered salvation last, so I would surmise they are the "youngers" SINCE it seems we are just deciding on what means what now,  I'll go and find some verses that I could use to "back it up" as long as no one minds if I take it all out of context, oh wait, I already know that isn't an issue.  Sure hope that doesn't make God angry, you know, just deciding on what something means and all.  IF it ends up voiding out some scripture on down the line, we'll just work something out and set about telling what  HE "REALLY" meant because we know that is going to take some change too.  It just gets worse from there.  
   

 

[DeighAnn]

49 minutes ago, The Light said:

He is talking to the Jews in those passages. Most of us realize that there is no difference between Gentile and Jew in the kingdom. Jesus will bring both folds with Him. However, it's all about timing and the FACT that part of Israel will not have it's blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So the verses you posted are for the Jews and those verses occur at the end of the 70th week. As for the Church, here is what is told to the Church.

Luke 21

Yes, it is timing.  AND the timing is AS SOON AS you are in Christ.  Upon belief.  

 

53 minutes ago, The Light said:

And it is exactly this great deal of evidence that proves that there will be two harvests even as the fig tree has two harvests.

How are you accounting the "second" resurrection of the "dead/spiritually dead" at the end of the Lords Day?  When Satan is loosed a short season,  at the end there will be those who have been "dead/spiritually dead" who will at that time receive immortality.  

What harvest is that?
 

50 minutes ago, The Light said:

Not such a wise plan. He is coming when you think not, and you think not that He will come before the tribulation.

By that reasoning, HE ISN'T COMING FOR ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN "RAPTURE" BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 8/23/2020 at 11:06 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

I think it safe to say, Daniel would not agree the resurrection would take place a full year after the tribulation had ended. Insted it appears the resurrection takes place 42 months after the persecution of the saints in Israel had began and at a time of great tribulation. . I don't believe anyone why precede this resurrection. 

I think it is safe to say, that the timing of the rapture is given in Rev 20

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It calls this the first Resurrection. That these people were killed for their testimony of Jesus, makes them Christians to me. The fact that they refused the mark, means they were in the tribulation.

In 1st Thess 4, we read:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So, if it is true as Paul says, that those who are asleep (dead Christians) in Christ, will rise first (the first resurrection?) and them after that we who are alive will be caught up to be with them and Jesus in the clouds (the rapture?) then if follows, unless there is some special kind of Bible math, that there is a tribulation with Christians it it who die in it, and since they are part of the dead in Christ who will rise first, followed by the living raptured, then necessarily, the rapture has to follow the tribulation. I cannot see how another scenario make sense in light of these passages.

And of course, it should go without saying, that Jesus said He would return, immediately after the tribulation.

[Shilohsfoal]

25 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I think it is safe to say, that the timing of the rapture is given in Rev 20

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It calls this the first Resurrection. That these people were killed for their testimony of Jesus, makes them Christians to me. The fact that they refused the mark, means they were in the tribulation.

In 1st Thess 4, we read:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So, if it is true as Paul says, that those who are asleep (dead Christians) in Christ, will rise first (the first resurrection?) and them after that we who are alive will be caught up to be with them and Jesus in the clouds (the rapture?) then if follows, unless there is some special kind of Bible math, that there is a tribulation with Christians it it who die in it, and since they are part of the dead in Christ who will rise first, followed by the living raptured, then necessarily, the rapture has to follow the tribulation. I cannot see how another scenario make sense in light of these passages.

And of course, it should go without saying, that Jesus said He would return, immediately after the tribulation.

Immediately.That I can agree with but not a full year after the tribulation has ended. 

That is what I was disputing. 

[Moby]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, I get that, but I am afraid I will just offer you more links.

First are the simple reasons why I think as I do, from a scripture perspective, regarding the sequence of events, but one cannot get a date, just the order of things:

Next, I think also instructive, is to notice things that the Bible does not say:

I hope you choose to dig in, but I am not offended if you do not want to do the work of clicking a couple of times, it just saves me a lot of work typing it all out. Of course there is lots more, but after 40+ years of studying this, one might expect that, so this is just some concise points. May God bless you as you seek His truths!

Amen Omegaman! I agree bro as your much study has paid off with truth spoken!

I am curious if you got a chance to study this link and the sub-links within about the "mystery of lawlessness" and "all Israel"?:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Edited September 3, 2020 by Moby

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 minutes ago, Moby said:

I am curious if you got a chance to study this link and the sub-links within about the "mystery of lawlessness" and "all Israel"?:

I have not, but will try to get to it soon, if I can remember to do so.

[DeighAnn]

57 minutes ago, The Light said:

The fullness of the Gentiles will come in when the pretribulation rapture occurs.

Where is IT WRITTEN 

"WHEN THE FULLNESS OF GENTILES COMES" MEANS

The entire church that was set up by Christ, will not go through the tribulation, the gentile part of the body of Christ to escape whilst Israel and the Jews do not?



WHAT DO ALL THESE HAVE IN COMMON?

1 Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

THAT IS HOW GOD WORKS.  AND HE TELLS US TIME AND AGAIN IN A BILLION DIFFERENT WAYS.  
 

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.


2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2 Corinthians 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

2 Corinthians 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

 

Acts 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

 

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


WHY I CAN'T BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIB RAP AMONGST SO MANY OTHER REASONS IS IT GOES AGAINST HOW GOD WORKS.  

[DeighAnn]

 

 

2 hours ago, The Light said:

What you say is correct, except, When Jesus comes for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes, the week is over. Then the wrath of God and the day of the Lord begins. The wrath lasts 42 months.

Except for of course?  The wrath is poured/dumped out of shallow wide mouth bowls and


 

Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Revelation 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by DeighAnn
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