Revelation 6:2 White horse

[John n Claudia]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

John, forgot to ask you about Revelation- big picture:

I noticed you have responded by giving me an overview of Revelation- 30,000 foot view. And if I read this correctly, you believe there are many verses that can be identified by literal kingdoms or empires including the possibility of the US or Russia, etc. You also mention the need to follow / identify the post Roman kingdoms.

All of this tells me you look at Revelation on a literal approach versus a spiritual one. 

Please offer your thoughts, Charlie 

Charlie,

Please bear with me for a little while because it will seem like I am going off topic, but I promise that I will tie it all together.

In college when you first learn about a subject, you start by taking a general general course that is meant to give you the broad outlines of a subject.  For example, learning about sociology, the first course you take will cover the definition of sociology, why it is good to study it, some of the principles used in the study and that sort of thing.  As you take more and more advanced classes, the focus of the class narrows and the depth of exploration increases.  By the time you are studying for a doctorate, you might have narrowed down to a study of a 50 year period of time in the late bronze age in a particular city.  The point is that you start by learning the general landscape of a subject and then you narrow and deepen your focus in order to understand more nuanced points.

The same thing is true in studying the Bible and learning about Jesus.  You start by learning that God loves you and that He sent Jesus in order to suffer and die for us so that we could be set free from sin.  As you progress in your Christian walk, you learn about narrower and deeper topics.

Since this is what we do for general learning and our general Christian walk, I suggest that it is also good to do this with Revelation.  Rather than focusing on a specific verse or two and really understand what that means, I would rather see you get a good overview of the entire book.  Start by getting an audio copy, there are several free versions that are available on the Bible Gateway app if you don't already have one.  Then simply listen to the book over and over again.  Do not take notes or try to understand any particular passage, but instead try to notice patterns that permeate the structure of the entire book.

For example, after listening to this a couple times, you will probably notice that there are a lot of sevens.  Seven Churches, Seven Seals, Seven and Trumpets, Seven Bowls.  After listening a couple more times, you will notice that there are also seven stars, angels and candlesticks.  As you listen more you will find even more sevens.  This indicates that seven is an important number and when we do deeper investigations, we should look for even more sevens that might not be as obvious.

After this, you can listen closer to the stories of the Churches, Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.  There you will see that after the seven churches some crazy stuff happens.  There is more crazy stuff that happens after the seven seals and even more crazy stuff after the trumpets and bowls.  Perhaps this indicates something that is worth investigating.

You might then that it is not just after the seventh in each of these series, but after the sixth seal, trumpet and bowl (but not the church), the text seems to go off an a tangent for a little while.  Perhaps this is something else worth investigating.

Then you might notice that there are also stories of a woman clothed in the sun and an angel with great authority.  These don't have any obvious sevens, so perhaps we need to look at these a little closer and see if they are somehow related.

After all this, you might start getting really deep and notice that we have just investigated six things, but the Book of Revelation is all about sevens.  Perhaps there is something that you missed and need to search out.

I know that I went very deep very quickly with this post, so please don't worry if you don't understand all of it right now.  Instead, save this so you can refer to it later and just take the first step by listening to the book 30 or 40 times to get a general lay of the land.  Then come back to this post, read the next step and see if you can make sense of that.

I hope that you find this helpful.

[John n Claudia]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its not about the "Holy Land", its about Israel, and Israel were as "Dead en's Bones for nigh 2000 years until 1948.

There could be no Beast (between 70 and 1948 AD). This is why the Brits nor the Ottoman Empire is a Beast.

The LAST BEAST is a man, not an empire

Rome (the sixth head) fell via the Church overcoming the Beast.

After the Rapture the Beast will reform against Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. 

The number 10 stands for the WHOLE of something. e.g. 10 Virgin Brides stands for the Church in full, tribulation for 10 days, means for the ENTIRE Church Age, 10 Toes = ALL Europe.

The Legs of Iron and Clay represent a fractured Europe.  10 is ALL of the Fractured Kingdom (Europe).  The 10 arises BEFORE the Beast comes to power, means the E.U. Formed in the 50s-70s to become one nation again.  We see the end results, they are a united nation again, not 10, but 26 or 27 nation, which the number 10 covers. 

Then, this LITTLE HORN (the Antichrist) arises amongst them, a man born in Greece, of Assyrian (Turkish descent) and comes to power in the E.U.

RevelationMan,

We have had numerous interactions in the past and it has already been determined that any dialogue between you and me will never be fruitful because we have very different definitions for basic concepts like the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation.  I generally do not even read your posts because I understand we have this difference and until we can get on the same page regarding definitions, we will just confuse each other.

In my post, I presented my opinion and gave reasons why I believe they are true.  They may be true or they may be false, we will never know for sure until we get to Heaven and the Lord tells us.  Many of the statements that you made are also opinions that cannot be proven true or false, but you presented them as facts.  However, there is one claim that you made that can be proven to be false.  Namely that with the EU, Europe has become one nation.  This is not true and all of the European countries would strongly object to this characterization.  I have cousins who live in seven different European countries and while they are grateful that they no longer need a passport in order to visit one another, they will be among the first to tell you that Europe is not a single country.  But even more damaging to this claim is the fact of Brexit.  Great Britain left the EU and this shows that the EU cannot be considered a single country. 

Since in general, both you and I presented our opinions that can neither be proved nor disproved as true, I will let history and judge  between us and let other people make up their own mind which theory makes the most sense:

 

• The Holy Land
  • is a special place for God and has remained special throughout the existence of the Earth (JnC)
  • was abandoned by God in 70AD and replaced by Europe (RM)
• The seven heads of the beast
  • are all empires, a unified political, military and for the most part, religious entity (JnC)
  • the first six are empires as above, the last one is a man (RM)
• After the Jewish dispersion
  • the empire system continued without interruption (JnC)
  • the sixth empire continued for 1477 years and after being absent for about 500 years (1453 AD - 1950+ AD) was resurrected by an empire whose only connection to the previous empire is that it controls about half of the land (RM)
• The Antichrist
  • will resurrect the seventh head as the eighth empire as prophesied (JnC)
  • will take over the existing seventh head without creating an eighth. (RM)
• 10 represents
  • 10, as in 10 Muslim countries will band together in order to establish an Islamic Caliphate resurrecting the Ottoman Empire (JnC)
  • everything, as in the 26, 27 or however many countries are in the existing EU at the time the Antichrist arises (RM)
• The little horn
  • Will be the King of Assyria as prophesied by Isiah and Micah in at least 7 different places, born within the borders of the original empire, probably within 100 miles of its ancient capital of Ashur, and will control an empire that starts out in that same area of the world (JnC)
  • Will have Assyrian ancestry, but probably never even lived in that area of the world, was born in Greece and will control an empire based in Belgium approximately 2200 miles away.

 

As I said, for the most part all of the claims on both sides of the argument are opinions and not facts, so we cannot know for sure  who is correct.  Most likely we are both wrong because that is how the interpretation of Bible prophecy often works.  In general, it is not until after the prophecy has been fulfilled and the fulfillment has been properly explained to us that we can know for sure the interpretation is correct.  We should leave this determination to history and let every other person look at the claims made by each side and determine for themselves which lines up more closely with the prophecies made in the Scriptures and which one they choose to believe.

 

[Revelation Man]

6 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

RevelationMan,

We have had numerous interactions in the past and it has already been determined that any dialogue between you and me will never be fruitful because we have very different definitions for basic concepts like the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation.  I generally do not even read your posts because I understand we have this difference and until we can get on the same page regarding definitions, we will just confuse each other.

In my post, I presented my opinion and gave reasons why I believe they are true.  They may be true or they may be false, we will never know for sure until we get to Heaven and the Lord tells us.  Many of the statements that you made are also opinions that cannot be proven true or false, but you presented them as facts.  However, there is one claim that you made that can be proven to be false.  Namely that with the EU, Europe has become one nation.  This is not true and all of the European countries would strongly object to this characterization.  I have cousins who live in seven different European countries and while they are grateful that they no longer need a passport in order to visit one another, they will be among the first to tell you that Europe is not a single country.  But even more damaging to this claim is the fact of Brexit.  Great Britain left the EU and this shows that the EU cannot be considered a single country. 

Since in general, both you and I presented our opinions that can neither be proved nor disproved as true, I will let history and judge  between us and let other people make up their own mind which theory makes the most sense:

 

• The Holy Land
  • is a special place for God and has remained special throughout the existence of the Earth (JnC)
  • was abandoned by God in 70AD and replaced by Europe (RM)
• The seven heads of the beast
  • are all empires, a unified political, military and for the most part, religious entity (JnC)
  • the first six are empires as above, the last one is a man (RM)
• After the Jewish dispersion
  • the empire system continued without interruption (JnC)
  • the sixth empire continued for 1477 years and after being absent for about 500 years (1453 AD - 1950+ AD) was resurrected by an empire whose only connection to the previous empire is that it controls about half of the land (RM)
• The Antichrist
  • will resurrect the seventh head as the eighth empire as prophesied (JnC)
  • will take over the existing seventh head without creating an eighth. (RM)
• 10 represents
  • 10, as in 10 Muslim countries will band together in order to establish an Islamic Caliphate resurrecting the Ottoman Empire (JnC)
  • everything, as in the 26, 27 or however many countries are in the existing EU at the time the Antichrist arises (RM)
• The little horn
  • Will be the King of Assyria as prophesied by Isiah and Micah in at least 7 different places, born within the borders of the original empire, probably within 100 miles of its ancient capital of Ashur, and will control an empire that starts out in that same area of the world (JnC)
  • Will have Assyrian ancestry, but probably never even lived in that area of the world, was born in Greece and will control an empire based in Belgium approximately 2200 miles away.

 

As I said, for the most part all of the claims on both sides of the argument are opinions and not facts, so we cannot know for sure  who is correct.  Most likely we are both wrong because that is how the interpretation of Bible prophecy often works.  In general, it is not until after the prophecy has been fulfilled and the fulfillment has been properly explained to us that we can know for sure the interpretation is correct.  We should leave this determination to history and let every other person look at the claims made by each side and determine for themselves which lines up more closely with the prophecies made in the Scriptures and which one they choose to believe.

 

1.) You nor any man can confuse me.

2.) We most certainly can KNOW..........Which tells me you are guessing brother. So maybe Prophecy is not your calling.

[John n Claudia]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

John, forgot to ask you about Revelation- big picture:

I noticed you have responded by giving me an overview of Revelation- 30,000 foot view. And if I read this correctly, you believe there are many verses that can be identified by literal kingdoms or empires including the possibility of the US or Russia, etc. You also mention the need to follow / identify the post Roman kingdoms.

All of this tells me you look at Revelation on a literal approach versus a spiritual one. 

Please offer your thoughts, Charlie 

Charlie,

You are very correct that I interpret the Book of Revelation literally.  I also interpret the other prophecies literally as well. 

When revelation tells us that 1/3 of the forests will burn, I believe that 1/3 of the physical forest spread all around the world will burn.  With the fires we are seeing in Australia, Siberia, the Amazon and California, I believe the first trumpet has already sounded.

When the Bible tells us that all of the seas will turn to blood with the second bowl, I believe that all of the seas will turn to a blood color and the oxygen will be removed killing sea life.  Most likely this will be the result of algal blooms rather than actual blood, but the look and the result will be the same.  Remember that John was told to write what he saw, and what he saw was water that was reddish like blood and lots of fish dying.

I also believe that the trumpets represent world wide disasters while the bowls represent disasters that are local to the empire of the Antichrist.  This is why the sores associated with the first bowl only affected those who had received the mark of the beast.  This means that 1/3 of the oceans all around the world will turn to blood with the second trumpet and all of the seas around the reborn Ottoman Empire will turn to blood with the second bowl.

There are times where we need to spiritualize things, but even there, it is a literal interpretation.

For example, in the New Testament, every mention of the word temple is to be interpreted as being the body of believers or our own body, unless it is completely obvious it is talking about a physical temple (e.g. Paul went into the temple to preach).  This is especially true in Revelation 11:1 where John is given a measuring stick and told to measure the temple.  Note that the second half of the verse tells John how to measure the temple - by counting the number of people.  This is the clue that tells us we are not talking about a physical Jewish temple, but rather we are talking about the temple that is the Church, the set of believers whose heart has been circumcised and who are following after the Lord and John is being told to measure the size of the Church by counting how many people are in it worshiping God. 

As further evidence that this is the correct way to interpret the verse, we just need to look at the other time someone measured a temple.  This is Ezekiel starting in Chapter 40 and in that passage he gives a description of the rooms along with the size of the room in cubits.  This clearly indicates Ezekiel is measuring a physical temple that will be built at some point in our future, while John could not possibly be measuring a physical building or he would also have been given the sizes of the rooms.

If you do a search for the word temple or sanctuary (depending on the translation you use), you will see that my claim is correct.

Note also that this means I do not believe a third Jewish temple will be built before Jesus returns.  When the Bible tells us the Antichrist stands in the temple and declares that he is God, this is not saying that the antichrist stands in a physical Jewish temple, but rather that the religious institutions of the world will support his claim to be God.  Note that this is one more way in which he is an anti-Christ.  Jesus, the real Christ was rejected by the religious authorities while the Antichrist will be accepted and celebrated.

 

I hope that this helps.

[John n Claudia]

24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

1.) You nor any man can confuse me.

2.) We most certainly can KNOW..........Which tells me you are guessing brother. So maybe Prophecy is not your calling.

Thank you for confirming that I have correctly stated your position regarding

• The Holy Land
• The seven heads of the beast
• After the Jewish dispersion
• The Antichrist
• 10 represents and
• The little horn

As I mentioned, most likely we are both wrong and will be corrected by God at the appropriate time.  In the meanwhile, let everyone examine the prophecies of the Bible and the beliefs we have and decide what we want to believe.

 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I expect to complete the first phase of Daniel (all 12 chapters) within the next 2 months. 

I was instructed to study Daniel before I attempt Revelation. Because I had  so much difficulty with 11, I found/started to seek assistance within this forum.

I would not want or feel the need to try and tackle Revelation the same way-I believe it will be so much more challenging, and because there is so much talent within this forum, I would to learn with as many folks that are interested... it is ALWAYS so much more enjoyable when you can be part of a team.

Consequently, in Revelation 6:2, it reads-

“And I heard and I saw, and behold a white horse and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him and he went out victorious, both conquering and to conquer”.

I guess if I was going to tackle this verse, I would list out the specific characteristics, and try to ensure my interpretation includes all of them:

1) white horse- why a horse, why white,

2) who is “he” sitting on the horse,

3) this “he” had a bow- where is the arrow: was “he” not given one or did “he” already shoot it,

4) a crown was given to him - crown given after he had been sitting, what does the crown signify, is this his permission to go out.. who gave him the crown, 

5) he went out victorious- against who, is “he” a good or bad “he”, 

6) why two separate actions... both conquering and to conquer... seems that was his intended purpose or mission (was this “mission” a designed role or did “he” decide on his own to conquer,

7) are there any Scriptures that can identify these characteristics or identity

As mentioned in previous posts, I know NOTHING of Revelation and would respectfully ask for your comments and opinions.

Thank you very much, Charlie 

Charlie, almost everyone to the last man, pulls this first seal out of its context. Before ANYONE should try and figure out who or what the first seal is to represent, they should first understand the context. Here is how God taught me this context: 

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

 I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

 Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

  Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

 Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

You can try and answer these questions, or if you choose not to, just ask and I will tell you how I got the answers.
Or, you can just dismiss this post. 

 

[Charlie744]

I understand the kind of event you experienced... it must have been unbelievable!!!!

I am going to go back and start again and try to see what you are talking about... those kinds of experiences are unfortunately too few but so unforgettable!

Thank you for sharing this and I will get back to you soon..

Revelation appears to be exponentially more difficult than Daniel...Thanks again, Charlie 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Charlie,

You are very correct that I interpret the Book of Revelation literally.  I also interpret the other prophecies literally as well. 

When revelation tells us that 1/3 of the forests will burn, I believe that 1/3 of the physical forest spread all around the world will burn.  With the fires we are seeing in Australia, Siberia, the Amazon and California, I believe the first trumpet has already sounded.

 

I believe the first trumpet has already sounded.  Sorry, but what you suggest is impossible. Why? The trumpet judgments are what is written inside the book - you know - that book that cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first.

So before the book gets opened to reveal the trumpets, all 7 seals must be opened.
The 7th seal cannot be opened until the 6th seal is opened. 
We are not at the 6th seal. the Day of the Lord has not started. We have not seen a worldwide earthquake. 

Back up one more to the 5th seal: are there still believers being killed for their love of Jesus. YES! So the church is still at the 5th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age and start the Day of the Lord.  

[iamlamad]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

I understand the kind of event you experienced... it must have been unbelievable!!!!

I am going to go back and start again and try to see what you are talking about... those kinds of experiences are unfortunately too few but so unforgettable!

Thank you for sharing this and I will get back to you soon..

Revelation appears to be exponentially more difficult than Daniel...Thanks again, Charlie 

You are right! It was an incredible time in my life and walk with the Lord. See if you can answer the questions!

[John n Claudia]

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I believe the first trumpet has already sounded.  Sorry, but what you suggest is impossible. Why? The trumpet judgments are what is written inside the book - you know - that book that cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first.

So before the book gets opened to reveal the trumpets, all 7 seals must be opened.
The 7th seal cannot be opened until the 6th seal is opened. 
We are not at the 6th seal. the Day of the Lord has not started. We have not seen a worldwide earthquake. 

Back up one more to the 5th seal: are there still believers being killed for their love of Jesus. YES! So the church is still at the 5th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age and start the Day of the Lord.  

iamlamad,

As seen in different interchanges, we have very different views regarding how to interpret Revelation.  Per your interpretation, no trumpet can sound until after the seventh seal is opened.  As a result of your assumptions and how you interpret Revelations, my answer does not make sense to you.

Per my interpretation, the seals, trumpets and bowls are different series and they run in parallel.  This means that I do not have the restriction that the seventh seal has to be opened before the first trumpet can sound.  The reason that I have been asking you questions in the other thread is so that I can understand your theory and know how to interpret your answers.  I would ask that you provide me the same courtesy and try to understand how I look at Revelation before you dismiss my posts out of hand and say that things cannot happen the way I believe they will happen.

Thank you very much in advance for this consideration.