Revelation 6:2 White horse

[Justin Adams]

26 minutes ago, Moby said:

Please understand that John was on the isle of Patmose around 96AD. He was told to write down the things which must come to pass HERE AFTER

That is only the 'party line'. If John wrote before 70 AD it changes everything and puts to flight much fancy...

[Moby]

13 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

That is only the 'party line'. If John wrote before 70 AD it changes everything and puts to flight much fancy...

There is no historical precedent for John writing the book of Revelation before 70AD.

John and the other disciples were busy studying the scriptures and ministering the gospel in the city of Jerusalem after Pentecost around 30 AD to the point they appointed deacons to care for the widows:

Acts 6:2-4  And the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not fit that we should forsake the word of God, and serve tables.  (3)  Look ye out therefore, brethren, from among you seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.  (4)  But we will continue stedfastly in prayer, and in the ministry of the word.

Sure sometimes apostles such as Peter were commissioned to go present the gospel in other cities such as the case with Cornelius in Acts chapter 10:

Acts 10:20  But arise, and get thee down, and go with them, nothing doubting: for I have sent them.

But the "disciple whom Jesus loved" was not found commissioned anywhere to present the gospel throughout the next 40 years until Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. Daniel was a eunuch in Jerusalem until he was taken captive when Babylon was commissioned by God to destroy Jerusalem and take the seed royal captive: 

Daniel 1:3 & 6  And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring in certain of the children of Israel, even of the seed royal and of the nobles;....(6)  Now among these were, of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.

Both Daniel and John fulfilled the same order of events where they were given deeper revelations after they were in exile for the truth!

Sure John wrote John 1,2, and 3 either in Jerusalem sometime just before the the destruction of that city in 70 AD or shortly thereafter while he was in exile in Ephesus when the greatest dispersion took place:

James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

The fact remains that John was on the isle of Patmos when he wrote the book of Revelation sometime after the destruction of Jerusalem and after his time in Ephesus where further persecution for living "the testimony of Jesus" caused him to be exiled to the prison on the isle of Patmos which almost all historians date his exile around 90 AD or later:

Revelation 1:9  I John, your brother and partaker with you in the tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

[Justin Adams]

44 minutes ago, Moby said:

There is no historical precedent for John writing the book of Revelation before 70AD.

Just as much as after. Cannot listen to the 'church fathers'. They were misogynists and got a good deal of doctrine wrong. In 'against heresies' the guy even wrote that Yeshua was over 50 years old and other strange stuff. The fathers may have been very knowledgeable about the Tanakh, but knew little else and often followed Plato and Greek in their philosophies. 

You must study well and see between the lines. Same goes for the various legendary creeds.

[Moby]

18 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Just as much as after. Cannot listen to the 'church fathers'. They were misogynists and got a good deal of doctrine wrong. In 'against heresies' the guy even wrote that Yeshua was over 50 years old and other strange stuff. The fathers may have been very knowledgeable about the Tanakh, but knew little else and often followed Plato and Greek in their philosophies. 

You must study well and see between the lines. Same goes for the various legendary creeds.

Please notice I did not quote anyone but what I found in the scriptures where I get all my facts and nowhere else!

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Moby said:

Please notice I did not quote anyone but what I found in the scriptures where I get all my facts and nowhere else!

Dare we limit the Lord High God that made everything seen and unseen etc.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Justin Adams

[canada]

23 hours ago, canada said:

I believe the reason the Holy Spirit used "white" for the first horse is because of the great deception of this counterfeit Christ. 

The papacy sits in his "temple" claiming to be "in the place of Christ" ... in stead of Christ ... a substitute of Christ ... "vicarious" ... The Vicar Of Christ.

The deception throughout the world by this "universal" church (for that is the meaning of "catholic") is so convincing to most that the HS uses the color white to describe that particular horse. 

When pope John Paul II arrived at the US, he literally rode on a "white horse" a popemobile (a converted white Ford Bronco)  and one of his trademarks was to bow to the ground of the host country and kiss it.

Being a former actor, he also held his arms up (outstretched as in Daniel) in the form of a bow to encourage the adulation of the admiring crowds.  The bow is toxon ... simple fabric ... the papal "triple crown" is weaved of finely spun literal gold thread.

His titled name summed at 666 in three different languages.

The deception is complete ... our watchmen on the wall were asleep on their watch.

Perhaps this will become more clear to students of prophecy when God completely destroys Vatican City in the not too distant future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This post is for those who believe the rider on the first white horse is a counterfeit Christ ... an imitation, a deceiver.

Jesus said, “I am come in my Father’s name and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”

By a 2/3 vote of the 111 Cardinals present (66.6%) Cardinal Karol Wojtyla Archbishop of Krakow was elected pope.

Just as Jesus came in the name of His Father, in fulfillment of prophecy, upon the election of a pope, he is asked – “what name do you wish to be called?”  He chooses, and therefore “comes in his own name.”

Another did come in his own name, and the world of Romanism (and some within Christianity) received him with open arms.

President Carter greeted him with “God has blessed America by sending you to us.”

Billy Graham stated: “He’s the most respected religious leader in the world today.”

The deception was complete.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Moby said:

Please understand that John was on the isle of Patmose around 96AD. He was told to write down the things which must come to pass HERE AFTER:

Revelation 4:1  After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

This means that the seals Jesus is about to open were NOT opened in 32 AD as you are trying to claim!

I suggest you study the difference between the former and latter rain that is hidden all through our Father Word as a major sign of when Revelation will take place and I alude to above and here:

"Jesus came as the the former rain so now 2 day or 2000 years later the latter rain outpouring of the Spirit on the man-child will harness his body as a white horse":

Hosea 6:1-3  Come, and let us return unto Jehovah; for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.  (2)  After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live before him.  (3)  And let us know, let us follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is sure as the morning; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain that watereth the earth.

Please understand that John was on the isle of Patmose around 96AD. He was told to write down the things which must come to pass HERE AFTER:  He CERTAINLY wrote of things "hereafter:" MANY things Please understand, John did not include the word "Only" in this verse.  The fact is, John included some history with his "hereafter" events. 

This means that the seals Jesus is about to open were NOT opened in 32 AD  No it doesn't. You only think it does. John did not write "ONLY." He was free to include some history - which he did. Don't take my word for it, go back and see: He suddenly appeared in the throne room (where He wasn't before) and then sent the Holy Spirit down. My friend, that happened around 32 AD, not in 2020 or future. 

I have no doubt that soon in our future the former rain and latter reign will be here together. We are soon to see a great outpouring. The "manchild" was Jesus, and yes, He was filled with the Holy Spirit - without measure.  You and I will continue to disagree. I don't see you changing your mind. 

[Moby]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Please understand that John was on the isle of Patmose around 96AD. He was told to write down the things which must come to pass HERE AFTER:  He CERTAINLY wrote of things "hereafter:" MANY things Please understand, John did not include the word "Only" in this verse.  The fact is, John included some history with his "hereafter" events. 

This means that the seals Jesus is about to open were NOT opened in 32 AD  No it doesn't. You only think it does. John did not write "ONLY." He was free to include some history - which he did. Don't take my word for it, go back and see: He suddenly appeared in the throne room (where He wasn't before) and then sent the Holy Spirit down. My friend, that happened around 32 AD, not in 2020 or future. 

I have no doubt that soon in our future the former rain and latter reign will be here together. We are soon to see a great outpouring. The "manchild" was Jesus, and yes, He was filled with the Holy Spirit - without measure.  You and I will continue to disagree. I don't see you changing your mind. 

No John was not given freedom to write whatever he wanted as he was commanded to write down what he was shown and heard:

Revelation 1:11  saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

He was so diligent in his obedience that a voice from heaven had to stop him from penning what the 7 thunders uttered:

Revelation 10:4  And when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

This passage has the word "must" in it which clearly means John was shown things which MUST come to pass hereafter 96 AD:

Revelation 4:1  After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Please notice that John is writing in the future tense here when he writes "when the living creatures shall give glory" then "the four and twenty elders shall fall down before him that sitteth on the throne":

Revelation 4:9-10  And when the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to him that sitteth on the throne, to him that liveth for ever and ever,  (10)  the four and twenty elders shall fall down before him that sitteth on the throne, and shall worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

No where in Revelation chapters 4, 5 or 6 is there any hint that the things John was being shown have already happened or need to happen at anytime until shortly before Jesus opens the 1st seal which begins the tribulation!

Jesus was a manchild but He is not the corporate manchild spoken of in Revelation chapter 12!

We are not here to change each others mind. We are here to share scriptures that one another may not of considered before and let the Holy Spirit teach them the truth:

John 14:26  But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

You are free to believe what ever you want but the Christian who takes away from the meaning of the truth will be blotted out of the book of life:

Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Moby said:

No John was not given freedom to write whatever he wanted as he was commanded to write down what he was shown and heard:

Revelation 1:11  saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

He was so diligent in his obedience that a voice from heaven had to stop him from penning what the 7 thunders uttered:

Revelation 10:4  And when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

This passage has the word "must" in it which clearly means John was shown things which MUST come to pass hereafter 96 AD:

Revelation 4:1  After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Please notice that John is writing in the future tense here when he writes "when the living creatures shall give glory" then "the four and twenty elders shall fall down before him that sitteth on the throne":

Revelation 4:9-10  And when the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to him that sitteth on the throne, to him that liveth for ever and ever,  (10)  the four and twenty elders shall fall down before him that sitteth on the throne, and shall worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

No where in Revelation chapters 4, 5 or 6 is there any hint that the things John was being shown have already happened or need to happen at anytime until shortly before Jesus opens the 1st seal which begins the tribulation!

Jesus was a manchild but He is not the corporate manchild spoken of in Revelation chapter 12!

We are not here to change each others mind. We are here to share scriptures that one another may not of considered before and let the Holy Spirit teach them the truth:

John 14:26  But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

You are free to believe what ever you want but the Christian who takes away from the meaning of the truth will be blotted out of the book of life:

Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

No where? You are mistaken, not understanding what Jesus was showing to John in the vision. I will explain, it will be up to you whether you are willing to change your mind.

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

 I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

  Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

 Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

 “This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

 I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

 Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Now for what I pasted in.

 For years pretribber have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

 Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

 If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these. We determine which one by STUDY and meditation.)

 We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure. Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

 The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

 NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was  sent down to the church.

 So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to open seals. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

 Next we have the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. These three ride together. (“And power was given unto THEM...” - these three: note “to kill with the sword” [red horse]; to kill “with hunger” [black horse]; and to kill “with death” [pale horse.]) They are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to STOP the advance of the church. God LIMITED their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. I am convinced, Satan was SURE he could keep the church bottled up in that 1/4 and prove God to be a liar. (This one fourth would certainly be centered over Jerusalem, so would take in all of Europe and Africa.) Well, it is obvious he failed! The Gospel of our Lord is everywhere available – in every nation under the sun, yet there are many that still need to be reached.

 Finally we come to the 5th seal, the ONLY seal with a hint of a long wait. Because many have misunderstood the timing, they have supposed these to be 70th week martyrs. No, they are CHURCH age martyrs, and Stephen was one of the first. If we understand what God said to them, we have a HINT to the timing of the rapture. Stop for a moment and think: if these were 70th week martyrs, they would have NO REASON to ask how long, for they would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. But consider Stephen: he did not know how long the church age would be...and he has waited nearly 2000 years. They were told they must wait until the very last martyr was killed in the same manner they were killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (John could not have been speaking of how each one died, for they were all different: the one COMMON thing - they were all killed as church age martyrs.) So what would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age would cause the end of church age martyrs; anyone martyred after this would be classified as a 70^th week martyr. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture of the church will end the church age!

 So what is the very next event in John's book? Of course the 6th seal comes after the 5^th seal. We are right now between the 5^th and 6^th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. What is the final sentence at the 6th seal? "The day of His wrath has come." (Remember, we have no appointment with His wrath. He comes to delivers us FROM His wrath.) So the 6th seal is for the signs of the Day of the Lord. What did Paul write, just three verses after his classic rapture verse? He wrote about the Day of the Lord coming at a time of peace and safety, but coming as a thief in the night. If we understand chapter 5 of 1 Thes., we see that Paul is showing us the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. So this fits "hand in glove" with John in Rev. chapter 6.

 The rapture is the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. At this suddenly, those in Christ are caught up, and those left behind get "sudden destruction." What is this sudden destruction? It is the worldwide earthquake caused by the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Matt. 27 says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." We see also that there was a great earthquake when the two witnesses were raised. Make no mistake, when the dead in Christ are resurrected, there WILL BE a worldwide earthquake. We see that earthquake as the FIRST EVENT of the 6th seal (remember, it came right after the 5th seal.)

 It is NOT a coincidence that John then saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. Chapter 7. Again, make no mistake, this IS the raptured church. Many are distracted by the two words, "great tribulation" and suppose these were killed by the Beast. But John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less got to the midpoint or the days of Great tribulation caused by the Beast and false prophet. So what is John's meaning here? It is simple, by the time of the rapture, there will be great tribulation around the world, meaning, people will be dying for their testimony. It is that way in half the world today, and it WILL move West. So the rapture will IMMEDIATELY bring on the signs of the start of the Day of the Lord: the sun turning dark, and the moon into blood. In Revelation, the rapture of the church will come JUST BEFORE the earthquake at the 6th seal.

I have been willing to share with others, what God spoke to me. It is up to those who read to either receive it is truth, or not. 

 

 

[Moby]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No where? You are mistaken, not understanding what Jesus was showing to John in the vision. I will explain, it will be up to you whether you are willing to change your mind.

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

 I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

  Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

 Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

 “This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

 I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

 Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Now for what I pasted in.

 For years pretribber have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

 Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

 If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these. We determine which one by STUDY and meditation.)

 We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure. Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

 The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

 NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was  sent down to the church.

 So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to open seals. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

 Next we have the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. These three ride together. (“And power was given unto THEM...” - these three: note “to kill with the sword” [red horse]; to kill “with hunger” [black horse]; and to kill “with death” [pale horse.]) They are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to STOP the advance of the church. God LIMITED their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. I am convinced, Satan was SURE he could keep the church bottled up in that 1/4 and prove God to be a liar. (This one fourth would certainly be centered over Jerusalem, so would take in all of Europe and Africa.) Well, it is obvious he failed! The Gospel of our Lord is everywhere available – in every nation under the sun, yet there are many that still need to be reached.

 Finally we come to the 5th seal, the ONLY seal with a hint of a long wait. Because many have misunderstood the timing, they have supposed these to be 70th week martyrs. No, they are CHURCH age martyrs, and Stephen was one of the first. If we understand what God said to them, we have a HINT to the timing of the rapture. Stop for a moment and think: if these were 70th week martyrs, they would have NO REASON to ask how long, for they would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. But consider Stephen: he did not know how long the church age would be...and he has waited nearly 2000 years. They were told they must wait until the very last martyr was killed in the same manner they were killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (John could not have been speaking of how each one died, for they were all different: the one COMMON thing - they were all killed as church age martyrs.) So what would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age would cause the end of church age martyrs; anyone martyred after this would be classified as a 70^th week martyr. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture of the church will end the church age!

 So what is the very next event in John's book? Of course the 6th seal comes after the 5^th seal. We are right now between the 5^th and 6^th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. What is the final sentence at the 6th seal? "The day of His wrath has come." (Remember, we have no appointment with His wrath. He comes to delivers us FROM His wrath.) So the 6th seal is for the signs of the Day of the Lord. What did Paul write, just three verses after his classic rapture verse? He wrote about the Day of the Lord coming at a time of peace and safety, but coming as a thief in the night. If we understand chapter 5 of 1 Thes., we see that Paul is showing us the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. So this fits "hand in glove" with John in Rev. chapter 6.

 The rapture is the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. At this suddenly, those in Christ are caught up, and those left behind get "sudden destruction." What is this sudden destruction? It is the worldwide earthquake caused by the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Matt. 27 says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." We see also that there was a great earthquake when the two witnesses were raised. Make no mistake, when the dead in Christ are resurrected, there WILL BE a worldwide earthquake. We see that earthquake as the FIRST EVENT of the 6th seal (remember, it came right after the 5th seal.)

 It is NOT a coincidence that John then saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. Chapter 7. Again, make no mistake, this IS the raptured church. Many are distracted by the two words, "great tribulation" and suppose these were killed by the Beast. But John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less got to the midpoint or the days of Great tribulation caused by the Beast and false prophet. So what is John's meaning here? It is simple, by the time of the rapture, there will be great tribulation around the world, meaning, people will be dying for their testimony. It is that way in half the world today, and it WILL move West. So the rapture will IMMEDIATELY bring on the signs of the start of the Day of the Lord: the sun turning dark, and the moon into blood. In Revelation, the rapture of the church will come JUST BEFORE the earthquake at the 6th seal.

I have been willing to share with others, what God spoke to me. It is up to those who read to either receive it is truth, or not.

Look I have had other men who said they had conversations with Jesus and He showed them great insights that turned out not to agree with the sum of Father's Word. Jesus warned us that there would be so much deceit in these last days that if possible the elect would fall for it:

Matthew 24:23-25  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ(self proclaimed anointed of God), or, Here; believe it not.  (24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.  (25)  Behold, I have told you beforehand.

You are trying to divide the first 5 verses of Revelation chapter 12 from the 6th verse to try and paint your narrative but anyone who reads this passage as a whole can clearly see that verse 6 is the conclusion of events spelled out in the first 5 verses:

Revelation 12:1-6  And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;  (2)  and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.  (3)  And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.  (4)  And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.  (5)  And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.  (6)  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The 1st clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that Herod tried to kill Jesus but not the coming beast with 7 heads and 10 horns:

Revelation 13:1  and he stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.

The 2nd clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that the dragon has not yet used his tail to draw the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth!

The 3rd clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that we as the church are all to be seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:6  and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

John didn't need a history lesson as He already was taught special prophecies none of the other gospel writers penned such as this passage:

John 16:17-23  Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?  (18)  They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith.  (19)  Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?  (20)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.  (21)  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.  (22)  And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.  (23)  And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

Jesus was very clearly prophesying of a future birth of a corporate body called the manchild and "they in verse 6 who would be caught up to heaven as the firstfruit of the last days who would nourish the coming exodus of a larger group of the church who begin fleeing the coming persecution by the beast:

Revelation 14:1-5  And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.  (2)  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:  (3)  and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.  (4)  These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.  (5)  And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

There is only ONE rapture/resurrection of ONE elect from the foundation of the world who are the ONE olive tree being ONE holy nation as Rob clearly proves here with hundreds of scripture that fits seamlessly into one truth:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/