A different perception - of the Beasts

[DeighAnn]

23 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The woman is a city Rev 17:18. But the beast is also a city.

Rev 17:3, "and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, ......, having seven heads ....".

Rev 17:9 "The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

The beast is seven mountains that the woman sits on. 

The woman is a city, that sits on the beast of the seven hills.

If the woman is a city, that sits on seven hills, the beast must also be a city of seven hills that the woman sits on.

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The woman sits on the beast, but she is not the beast, she is only seen as sitting on the beast of the seven mountains/hills.

Both are cities, but are different entities.

The place where the woman and the beast sit, in the vision, is the "seat of the beast."

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


So are you saying that "the city" is the
" was, is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit..."?

[abcdef]

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


So are you saying that "the city" is the
" was, is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit..."?

Yes.

The beast is seven mountains/hills on which the woman (city) sits.

How is it, that if the beast is seven hills, how do the seven hills fit the,  was, is not, and goeth into perdition, prophecy?

Edited September 5, 2020 by abcdef

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

Yes.

The beast is seven mountains/hills on which the woman (city) sits.

How is it, that if the beast is seven hills, how do the seven hills fit the,  was, is not, and goeth into perdition, prophecy?

We see the mountain differently.  I see that.  

I do see how you see the city that was, then destroyed, then taken by one who should not and the rest of the given history of it.  Still doesn't fit with the rest of scripture for me.  By the letter of it, maybe, but spiritually I got nothing.  Who knows, much knowledge is coming our way....I will keep it in the back of my mind though.  So thank you for putting it forth.   

[abcdef]

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We see the mountain differently.  I see that.  

I do see how you see the city that was, then destroyed, then taken by one who should not and the rest of the given history of it.  Still doesn't fit with the rest of scripture for me.  By the letter of it, maybe, but spiritually I got nothing.  Who knows, much knowledge is coming our way....I will keep it in the back of my mind though.  So thank you for putting it forth.   

I'm not sure that you really do understand what the answer to my question is.

The beast is something that is shown in the statue of Dan 2., the iron, and the 4th beast of Dan. 7.

Both show the beast that was at John's time, five have fallen, one is. The one that is in Johns time was Rome.

The beast is a city, Rome. A city/state that ruled Jerusalem and the people of Israel.

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The beast/city/Rome "was", it was even before John was born.

"Is" at John's time.

"Is not" after Rome falls in 476 AD.

"Yet still is" after the 7th head dies.

The power of Rome continued after the fall of 476 AD in the form of the RCC and the Bishop of Rome, the eighth head.

That last form lasts until perdition, the eternal damnation of souls.

The RCC has lasted to this day.

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So the city of the 7 hills Vatican is still powerful today with a kingdom of 1.2 billion members.

The Roman Empire city/state returned in 1929 to sit on the seat of the beast again.

The dragon/beast returned from the place of the dead, the abyss.

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Remember this one important thing, the timeline of the statue in Dan. 2 is continual, with no breaks. That is, the iron of Rome does not stop and then start again, it is a continual timeline.

The timeline doesn't end when Rome falls in 476 AD, it continues.

The Roman beast changes form, (sea beast to the earth beast after the sea beast dies), but it is still the beast even though it changes form.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

I'm not sure that you really do understand what the answer to my question is.

The beast is something that is shown in the statue of Dan 2., the iron, and the 4th beast of Dan. 7.

Both show the beast that was at John's time, five have fallen, one is. The one that is in Johns time was Rome.

The beast is a city, Rome. A city/state that ruled Jerusalem and the people of Israel.

------

The beast/city/Rome "was", it was even before John was born.

"Is" at John's time.

"Is not" after Rome falls in 476 AD.

"Yet still is" after the 7th head dies.

The power of Rome continued after the fall of 476 AD in the form of the RCC and the Bishop of Rome, the eighth head.

That last form lasts until perdition, the eternal damnation of souls.

The RCC has lasted to this day.

-------

So the city of the 7 hills Vatican is still powerful today with a kingdom of 1.2 billion members.

The Roman Empire city/state returned in 1929 to sit on the seat of the beast again.

The dragon/beast returned from the place of the dead, the abyss.

------

Remember this one important thing, the timeline of the statue in Dan. 2 is continual, with no breaks. That is, the iron of Rome does not stop and then start again, it is a continual timeline.

The timeline doesn't end when Rome falls in 476 AD, it continues.

The Roman beast changes form, (sea beast to the earth beast after the sea beast dies), but it is still the beast even though it changes form.

 

Like I said before "as to the LETTER" carnal, yes, it could be taken/explained/shown to be that way. 

BuT as to the Spiritual meaning,  I simply don't believe as you do.  I don't know what else to say.  

I believe it is the same exact problem that the 1st covenant had.  They got the "letter" of the law, but what they were supposed to see and hear and feel, in the spiritual sense of it, what was TRULY being conveyed,  was all but lost on them.    I have been down this road before, as I am sure you have,  and we both know it won't change anything.  It's up to God and His timing, not ours.

So. ALL those "kingdoms" have one thing in common.  They don't worship GOD.  What ever name you wish to call them by, Rome, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Mohammadin,  THEY ARE ALL OF THE SAME influence and that is NOT IN THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD.  Even when they make the claim, their fruit bears the witness of who their father really is.  WE are given the TRuTH about what is going on FROM the very beginning of the Book.  That is All it is about. God or the Adversary.  There is Enmity between the seeds.  Deception coming and there is going to be a test.  Pass-Life   Fail-Death.  And in the end, it really is just that simple.  

[douggg]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

The beast/city/Rome "was", it was even before John was born.

"Is" at John's time.

"Is not" after Rome falls in 476 AD.

"Yet still is" after the 7th head dies.

The power of Rome continued after the fall of 476 AD in the form of the RCC and the Bishop of Rome, the eighth head.

That last form lasts until perdition, the eternal damnation of souls.

The RCC has lasted to this day.

At Jesus's returns in Revelation 19/20 :

beast (a man)    - cast alive into the lake of fire.

false prophet (a man) - cast alive into the lake of fire.

Satan - cast into the bottomless pit.

 

Work backwards from there.

1.  the scarlet colored beast - Satan 

2.  the Harlot - the Vatican in Rome.

3.   mother of the Harlot - Babylon the Great, the mystical kingdom of Satan and his third of the  angels.

4.   the beast in the bottomless pit - the garden of eden serpent beast, tool of Satan

5.   the first beast in Revelation 13 -

........a.   the man, 8th king, mortally wounded/recovered king 7

........b.   his kingdom, the EU, end times Roman Empire

6.  the second beast in Revelation 13 - the false prophet man

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by douggg

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree with you but please hear me out.  I am questioning here.  I am making sure that i am not "seeing" because others do.   

What are wars about?  Religion, economic gain, territory, etc.  What happens when all "believe" in the same thing?  What happens when wealth is given out to all?  What happens when everything "feels" like it is being equal?  

The wars and rumors of wars are the beginnings of sorrows.  How much more noticeable will be the "one world all on the same page" life?  AND THEN, when it receives the deadly wound, the panic that will ensue only make it SUPER EASY to worship the "saviour of the system" that gave them such relief. 

I feel like there are several discussions in the above. If I understand the overall point it's one of deception. I agree. It's here. It's been here. The elect cannot be deceived. Everyone gets to make their choice. I used to worry about it too. There is zero you can do about it. I think scripture is clear about who gets people born again and leads then to the truth; the Holy Spirit. 

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. - 1 Cor 3

In the end each is responsible for their own personal conduct. I hope I don't sound callous because I'm not. I care but I have learned it's all about choice; Jesus Christ or not. All have heard or soon will and that decision is the only relevant one as our eyes are set on eternity. Whatever the truth of the end of the age turns out to be Jesus is the King and Savior and if anyone calls on His name they will be saved.

I take a lot of comfort in that and it settles my mind in peace and rest.

 

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IF I DIDN'T KNOW, BECAUSE I HADN'T STUDIED THE WORD OF GOD, that everything happening was all a lie and a deception, I would believe as the world will.  ALL you have to do is "worship" him.  Look at the people of today and how quickly and easily they worship anyone they like.  They have no devotion to God.  Anything and everything in this world comes before He does.  He is relegated to the hour on "whatever" day and a prayer of thanks before a meal and a prayer when in trouble.  HOW  many people do you truly know that put God above everyone and everything in their lives?  How many claim to be Christs, but have no interest in him besides "what can he do for me"?

You aren't wrong. The truth is not everyone will come to knowledge no matter how much we wish it to be. Sure it's the right thing but not all see it that way. I see our Lord and Father as merciful and loving and long suffering. A proper Father that gives abundantly but also corrects, harshly if needed, a fact for which I am very grateful. Others see Him as a brutal tyrant who is uncaring and vicious; and many other ways. Jesus knows all this. Look at Revelation 2-3. They have been warned, if they can hear it. 

I oppose doctrine all the time. Have for years. I have tried different methods and sometimes I'm not very nice about it. Does anything change? Not that I see. I hope in the unseen. What is happening in places where I can't look? The Spirit of God is active and successful. He will choose as He sees fit and accomplish that which He sets out to do. That is joyful and comforting to me and allows for a great deal of peace in my life. 

What I see is a lack of fear of the Lord. People in this country are just too fat and happy. The bread and circuses have done their job. No matter who I talk to they expect an affirmation of their personal beliefs. Those personal beliefs quickly and easily overcome the truth of the Spirit.

 

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What have we seen of Satan and his church?  

He lies and seduces by making you question God and what you know.  His followers come in and mingle amongst us AND WE ARE UNAWARE they are even there unless specifically looking for them or until it is too late.  

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it." - Gen 3

From the beginning....no different now. 

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Satans "beast" is going to satisfy "the flesh" of men and men are going to believe he MUST be God to make all the world happy and to bring about peace.  

THAT is the falling away.  That is the temptation.  That is the trial.  When all around you are of a like mind and it "looks and seems" like heaven on earth, and everyone is working together and on and on, and WE can't be a part of it, not at all.  

If it's Satan there will be no peace. Satan has influence in this world and it's chaotic and getting worse. The covid crisis increased unrest. Even as the world came together to fight an imaginary enemy it devolved into deeper chaos. It's won't be about peace, it'll be about saving the flesh and filling the belly. 

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

Well put and accurate. Yet the peace of God surpasses all. The above is fact and it cannot be changed. Some are destined to life and some to death. You have read Jude, yes? And Peter? 

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

If it's Satan there will be no peace. Satan has influence in this world and it's chaotic and getting worse. The covid crisis increased unrest. Even as the world came together to fight an imaginary enemy it devolved into deeper chaos. It's won't be about peace, it'll be about saving the flesh and filling the belly. 

I agree with you.  It is the  filling the belly that will make people "believe" there is peace and safety, though it is nothing more than another lie.  

Do you think that the beginning of sorrows we are experiencing now, all the wars and earths rebellion (earthquakes, floods, bugs, etc) the pestilence (covid as an Example)  are the chaos to bring about the setting up for what will be brought together under him to make it 'appear' as peace and safety? thereby bringing about the worship of him?  Or do you think the wars and all the rest will just keep getting worse until Christ appears to end it?  

I have 'pictured' Satans 1st beast to bring about the one world - under one rule, under one belief, under one money, under one education (or one lack of education), to be in such contrast to what the world was experiencing before that came into play, that he could then claim to be....and the world would believe him.  Especially if the first beast semi accomplishes it, receives the deadly wound, plunging the world back into total chaos but just for a moment and then VOILA, a savior appears and not only fixes what went wrong but perfects it, ushering in the 2nd half.  

For the whole world to believe, the whole world would have to come together and that can not happen if the world is at war, can it?  

I think I just made the same comment and asked same the question twice but it would be to hard to fix right now so please please excuse me.

[Diaste]

11 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree with you.  It is the  filling the belly that will make people "believe" there is peace and safety, though it is nothing more than another lie.  

Do you think that the beginning of sorrows we are experiencing now, all the wars and earths rebellion (earthquakes, floods, bugs, etc) the pestilence (covid as an Example)  are the chaos to bring about the setting up for what will be brought together under him to make it 'appear' as peace and safety? thereby bringing about the worship of him?  Or do you think the wars and all the rest will just keep getting worse until Christ appears to end it?  

I see the wars and rumors of wars in the olivet discourse as specific to the time of Christ's near return. Since we have had wars and rumors of wars since the Fall it doesn't seem to me that is what Jesus was referring to. Either the wars and rumors will increase, be more intense, or it's some new and different character of wars and rumors. It's sure to stand out and I don't the last 2000 years of wars as any thing different than what we have right now.

11 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I have 'pictured' Satans 1st beast to bring about the one world - under one rule, under one belief, under one money, under one education (or one lack of education), to be in such contrast to what the world was experiencing before that came into play, that he could then claim to be....and the world would believe him.  Especially if the first beast semi accomplishes it, receives the deadly wound, plunging the world back into total chaos but just for a moment and then VOILA, a savior appears and not only fixes what went wrong but perfects it, ushering in the 2nd half.  

I really don't know about all that; "under one rule, under one belief, under one money, under one education (or one lack of education)" It's possible all that is true. It may be there is a resistance to all of that. I can see the US and the British resisting any such dictates. But you could be right. From what I read I tend toward crisis of resources driving the implementation of the mark, but that's a whole other discussion. I can only prove through deduction the beast from the sea rises at the very beginning and that is the sign the week has begun. The beast rises from the healed wound and after much success then declares himself god at the midpoint. It seems like more of 'king and PM', the relationship of the beast and the FP. Some say it's the beast of the earth that is the 'antichrist'. I don't hold to that.

11 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

For the whole world to believe, the whole world would have to come together and that can not happen if the world is at war, can it?

I wouldn't say that. The world has come together because of war twice in this century. A big coalition came together against Iraq in 1991. War is reason to band together. So is lack of resources. Lack of resources can cause war also. Heck, a single lie can cause war. Seems we just like to go to war with any one and every one. 

This is interesting. Don't stop now.

 

[abcdef]

On 9/6/2020 at 1:49 AM, douggg said:

At Jesus's returns in Revelation 19/20 :

 

beast (a man)    - cast alive into the lake of fire.

false prophet (a man) - cast alive into the lake of fire.

Satan - cast into the bottomless pit.

 

Work backwards from there.

1.  the scarlet colored beast - Satan 

2.  the Harlot - the Vatican in Rome.

3.   mother of the Harlot - Babylon the Great, the mystical kingdom of Satan and his third of the  angels.

4.   the beast in the bottomless pit - the garden of eden serpent beast, tool of Satan

5.   the first beast in Revelation 13 -

........a.   the man, 8th king, mortally wounded/recovered king 7

........b.   his kingdom, the EU, end times Roman Empire

6.  the second beast in Revelation 13 - the false prophet man

Hi douggg,

Rev 19 does not show Jesus returning to planet earth, heaven is opened, yes, but it is an assumption that He returns to planet earth in this text.

The beast that is shown cast into the fire is the sea beast, the Roman Empire. It was defeated by the gospel sword. See that there is a remnant, the earth beast, the RCC. The religion of Rome and the RCC is Caesar worship.

The false prophet is Caesar and the RCC.

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The scarlet beast is a city of seven hills/mountains, Rev 17, that the harlot sits on.

The woman is harlot Israel shown as a captive in Rome in 96 AD. The mark shows the slavery possession. The woman still attacks the Pentecost gospel kingdom, as shown by the letters to the 7 congregations. 

The beast in the abyss is the Roman Empire. The religion of Rome, Caesar worship, continued after the fall until this day.

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The sea beast rises in power from the sea of the gentile nations. The earth beast rises from the religious sector.

The beast kingdom RCC is in power right now. It's members are in every nation. The idea that it will encompass a land mass is assumed. 

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Caesar is a man. The bishop of Rome is a man.

But the entity is not a singular man.

That is, the empire and it's successor must cover centuries and not the lifetime of one man.

The 7 heads represent the life time of the Roman Empire.

The 8th head is the Bishop of Rome who came to power after the fall of Rome.

When Rome fell, the beast changed form to the earth beast, an image, but it is still the beast.

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