Understanding the timing of the rapture is too easy

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nope. You deliberately left out the meaning of apostasia. Why?

All this is based on an idea that does not appear in the text. The questions are moot.

I used to suspect you were a preacher or a pastor at the head of some congregation, now I'm sure.

If a jet is traveling west and an apple falls from a tree does ManU win the title? See? I can do it too. It's nonsense as the concept doesn't exist.

Then you better question all the other things Paul said as well. Now the well know rapture verses in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 are suspect. Maybe Paul meant something else instead of what he said in every letter? If you are going to call Paul into question for this none of what he said is reliable.

That's the road you're on.

Maybe I left out YOUR meaning. I gave the meaning Strong's gave - and he was an expert in Greek. 

The questions are not moot. The real meaning MUST fit the context, or Paul was not a good writer. But we KNOW he was an awesome writer. Therefore, the meaning Paul meant behind "apostasia" has to be what he wrote of in verses 6-8: the restrainer "taken out of the way." This is absolute, because Paul shows the man of sin revealed in 3b. 

No, sorry, never have been a pastor. I am placed in the body of Christ as a teacher. Some pastors are good teachers, but others are preachers.

Maybe a better question would be WHY Paul wrote this passage as he did. Well, maybe not, for we know he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write. So why did God have Paul write this passage the way He did? In your mind, does a falling away (from what is not given) equate to the restrainer being "taken out of the way?"

Can evil restrain evil? I think not. GOD can restrain evil. God can prevent the man of sin from being revealed until the right time. 

Sorry, but 1 Thes. 4 & 5 are easy to understand, along with 1 Cor. 15. Most people agree on what these verses say. There is GREAT disagreement on the 2 Thes. 2 passage.

Just so you know, I am certainly NOT calling Paul "into question." Our job is to understand what God meant for us to understand in that passage. Most people read right over "is revealed" in 3b and read right over "now you know what is restraining" in verse 6. Most people's theories ignores these two statements. 

In short, I TRUST Paul! I am sure he knew every possible meaning of this compound word. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FIRST QUESTION ALWAYS IS, WHERE IS IT WRITTEN?
IF IT ISN'T, IT IS NOT OF GOD.  

NO MATTER HOW MANY SEEMINGLY "WISE" WORDS GET PUT TOGETHER THAT  
WHEN ASKED TO "SHOW  WHERE IT IS WRITTEN" and  IT IS NEVER DONE,  IT IS NOT OF GOD. 

HEED THE WARNING OF JESUS AND DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.  


KNOW WHY WE KEEP ASKING THE SAME QUESTION OVER AND OVER?  BECAUSE IT  NEVER IS AND NEVER WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE WORD OF GOD.  PRAYERFULLY,  THE EWES SEE THAT AND SO ARE NOT LEAD DOWN THAT ROAD THAT MAKES VOID THE WORD OF GOD. 


CAN WE BE SURE GOD HAS TOLD IT TO ONE OF HIS PROPHETS AND THAT IT WILL/HAS COME TO US AS A DOCTRINE WE CAN FIND IN WRITING?

Amos 3:5 Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Amos 3:7 SURELY THE LORD GOD WILL DO NOTHING BUT HE REVEALETH HIS SECRET UNTO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.  

Amos 3:8 The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Amos 3:9 Publish in the palaces at Ashdod, and in the palaces in the land of Egypt, and say, Assemble yourselves upon the mountains of Samaria, and behold the great tumults in the midst thereof, and the oppressed in the midst thereof.

Amos 3:10 For they know not to do right, saith the LORD, who store up violence and robbery in their palaces.

Amos 3:11 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; AN ADVERSARY  there shall be even round about the land; and he shall bring down thy strength from thee, and thy palaces shall be spoiled.

Amos 3:12 Thus saith the LORD; As the shepherd taketh out of the mouth of the lion two legs, or a piece of an ear; so shall the children of Israel be taken out that dwell in Samaria in the corner of a bed, and in Damascus in a couch.

Amos 3:13 Hear ye, and testify in the house of Jacob, saith the Lord GOD, the God of hosts,

Amos 3:14 That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of the altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground.

Amos 3:15 And I will smite the winter house with the summer house; and the houses of ivory shall perish, and the great houses shall have an end, saith the LORD.

WHO ARE THE PROPHETS? THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, PLUS THOSE WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD SUCH AS MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, JOHN, PAUL, PETER, JAMES, JOHN, MOSES, DAVID, ISAIAH, EZEKIEL, JEREMIAH, DANIEL, HOSEA, AMOS AND ON AND ON. 


JESUS DOESN'T RETURN UNTIL THE 7TH TRUMP. 

PERIOD. 

THAT IS WHAT GODS WORD SAYS.  THAT COMES AFTER THE 6TH.  



FACTS THAT CAN NOT BE CHANGED FOR ANY THEORY

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


THE END




SO WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT BEING/BECOMING THE SEED OF ABRAHAM? 

QUICKLY FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW OR REMEMBER WHAT THAT MEANS

A QUICK COPY AND PASTE OF OF SOME VERSES

THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT 
 

Genesis 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

 

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

 

Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Genesis 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Genesis 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

 

Genesis 35:22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:

Genesis 35:23 The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun:

Genesis 35:24 The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin:

Genesis 35:25 And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali:

Genesis 35:26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid: Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padanaram.

Genesis 35:27 And Jacob came unto Isaac his father unto Mamre, unto the city of Arbah, which is Hebron, where Abraham and Isaac sojourned.



Genesis 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours. 

WITH A TAD BIT OF COMMENTARY
(NOT REUBEN BECAUSE OF Genesis 35:22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it.)

SO THE BIRTHRIGHT 
 

1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

1 Chronicles 5:2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)

AND JOSEPH TOOK HIS SONS

Genesis 48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.

Genesis 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

Genesis 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


 INTO EGYPT, 400 YRS LATER THE GREAT DELIVERANCE (EX 1-14) TO MOUNT SINAI GIVEN  LAWS EX 19-40, LE, NU,DE.  

Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.


BUT AS THEY DID NOT 

Leviticus 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;

Leviticus 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Leviticus 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Leviticus 26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.

Leviticus 26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.

Leviticus 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

Leviticus 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

Leviticus 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

Leviticus 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

Leviticus 26:37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

Leviticus 26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

Leviticus 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

Leviticus 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Leviticus 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

A TIME 360 X 7 = 2520


ANYWAY, BACK GOING INTO THE PROMISE LAND (THE KINGDOM DIVIDED AMONGST THE SONS EACH OF THE TRIBES HAVING THEIR OWN LAND)

THEN

1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

1 Samuel 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

1 Samuel 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1 Samuel 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

SAUL APPOINTED, REMOVED, DAVID (OF JUDAH) APPOINTED

2 Samuel 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

2 Samuel 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

2 Samuel 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

2 Samuel 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

2 Samuel 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

2 Samuel 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

2 Samuel 7:17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.


 

Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

Jeremiah 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Jeremiah 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,

Jeremiah 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

Jeremiah 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

Jeremiah 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Jeremiah 33:23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,

Jeremiah 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

Jeremiah 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

Jeremiah 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.



Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

DAVID HAD REIGNED OVER JUDAH FOR 7 YEARS THEN ALL ISRAEL 33.  THINGS WENT GREAT, TILL SOLOMON SINNED AND CAUSED ALL TO 



SO GOD DIVIDED 

1 Kings 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

1 Kings 11:32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)

1 Kings 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.


 

1 NKings 12:16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.

1 Kings 12:17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

1 Kings 12:18 Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem.

1 Kings 12:19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.

1 Kings 12:20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

1 Kings 11:34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:

1 Kings 11:35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.

1 Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.

NORTHERN KINGDOM OF ISRAEL, 10 TRIBES, HOUSE OF ISRAEL,  UNDER LEADERSHIP OF EPHRIAM, SAMARIA AS CAPITOL,  JEROBOAM KING

SOUTHERN KINGDOM OF JUDAH, 2 TRIBES, (AND MOST OF LEVI) HOUSE OF JUDAH, JERUSALEM AS CAPITOL,  REHOBOAM KING


NOTES:  LEVI HAS NO LAND, STILL A TRIBE.  MANASSEH IS 13.  

BIRTHRIGHT TRIBES EPHRAIM AND MANASSEH WITH NORTHERN HOUSE OF ISRAEL

SCEPTER (COVENANT WITH DAVID)  SOUTHERN,  HOUSE OF JUDAH


 

1 Kings 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

1 Kings 12:22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

1 Kings 12:23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,

1 Kings 12:24 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.


AND THE REST OF THE STORY IS NORTHERN TRIBES SINNED WENT INTO CAPTIVITY OF THE ASSYRIAN AND UPON RELEASE WERE SCATTTERED AROUND THE WORLD, SOUTHERN TRIBE SINNED WENT INTO CAPTIVITY OF BABYLON MOSTLY WENT BACK TO JERUSALEM.  

SINCE EVERYONE ELSE MOSTLY STAYED WHERE THEY WERE, AND WE CAN SEE THE WORLD KINGDOMS OF THE TIMES, I BELIEVE IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT THE STARS OF THE SKY AND THE SANDS OF THE SEA, AND THE DUST OF THE EARTH ARE THE CHILDREN TO BE FOUND IN THE REMAINING PARTS OF THE WORLD.  

SO THOSE WHO BELIEVE THEY ARE "GENTILE" WHO LIVE "ELSEWHERE" MOST LIKELY AREN'T, THEY ARE MOST LIKELY "SCATTERED SHEEP" THAT ARE ROUNDED UP IN CHRIST.  NATIONS WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS, WHO ARE UNDER GOD.  WHO HAVE BEEN PROTECTED AND BLESSED BY GOD THESE MANY YEARS.  LIKE AN EDEN BEFORE THE LOCUST COME TO DEVOUR.  THEY ARE SWARMING, THAT IS FOR SURE.  


SO IS THERE EVEN A POSSIBILITY OF A PRE TRIB RAPT THEORY EVENT?  NOPE CAUSE ITS ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL

AND

AS ALL OF CHRIST ARE OF "JACOB/ABRAHAMS SEED" AND  THE TROUBLE COMING IS FOR ALL OF US.

THE GOSPEL ARMOR WILL KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION AS YOU WILL NOT BE TEMPTED.  BECOMING A CHRISTIAN KEEPS GODS WRATH FROM FALLING UPON US AS IT ONLY FALLS ON THEM.  MUCH LIKE THE FIERY FURNACE IN DANIEL DIDN'T SINGE ONE OF GODS BUT BURNT TO A CRISP ONE OF THEM.  ELDERS ARE ELDERS, APOSTASY IS A FALLING AWAY FROM TRUTH AND FOLLOWING AFTER LIES, THE ARMIES RETURNING WIWTH CHRIST ARE THOSE WHO HAVE "FALLEN ASLEEP" NOT THOSE TAKEN ALIVE.  WHEN ALL WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CHANGED, THERE IS NO ONE LEFT ALIVE AND REMAINING FOR TRIB TO COME UPON.  THE 5 CHURCHES DESCRIBED IN REVELATION ARE IN NO WAY READY TO STAND OR SIT IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND THE 2 WHO ARE ARE REMAINING.  THEY CAN'T BE "SEEN" AFTER THE BEAST RISES BECAUSE THE ONLY CHURCH WHILE SATAN HAS CONTROL OF THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE HIS, HENCE THE MESSAGE IS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCHES BUT IT IS ONLY "HIM", AS AN INDIVIDUAL, THAT MUST STAND, OVERCOME AND ENDURE TO THE END, NOT TO MENTION THE FACT GOD NEVER SPEAKS OF IT.  

 

JESUS DOESN'T RETURN UNTIL THE 7TH TRUMP. 

PERIOD.   Sorry, but Jesus returns in chapter 19, NOT at the 7th trump. Why then should anyone believe the rest of your very long post? 

THE END
Why did you continue after "the end?"

A TIME 360 X 7 = 2520
Finally! Something I can agree with.

SO IS THERE EVEN A POSSIBILITY OF A PRE TRIB RAPT THEORY EVENT?  NOPE CAUSE ITS ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL
Another error. If you wish to be left behind, that is your choice: why try to cause others to follow your error and be left behind?

THE TROUBLE COMING IS FOR ALL OF US.  Wrong yet again! Go back to Daniel 9 and read that the 70th week is for DANIEL's people. If you wish to remain behind and live (or try to) through God's wrath, fine: it is your choice. But why try to convince others to stay and face His wrath, when GOD'S will is that we escape His wrath? Why would ANYONE wish to live through God's wrath poured out - when God Himself has made a way of escape for us?

THE GOSPEL ARMOR WILL KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION AS YOU WILL NOT BE TEMPTED. No, GOD said HE will.  It is written that the saints will be overcome. Why not teach that? It is truth. 

The rest of your post is myth. 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe I left out YOUR meaning. I gave the meaning Strong's gave - and he was an expert in Greek. 

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm

So yes, you left this out. I can take a picture of the page in the hard copy and post it if you like.

No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no matter how much you hope or sincerely believe, it's a revolt, not an abduction from one place to go to another.

THE rapture verse of the NT in 1 Thess 4 shows harpazo as the rapture:

"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up [harpazo]..."

Strong's Concordance

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away

Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

HELPS Word-studies

726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

 

Literally forcing apostasia to take on the definition and concepts of harpazo is no way to prove your point.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The questions are not moot. The real meaning MUST fit the context, or Paul was not a good writer. But we KNOW he was an awesome writer. Therefore, the meaning Paul meant behind "apostasia" has to be what he wrote of in verses 6-8: the restrainer "taken out of the way." This is absolute, because Paul shows the man of sin revealed in 3b. 

Unrelated. Taken out of the way is 'ginomai', that's an emergence. Doesn't fit anyway with the holy grail of pretrib which is 1 Thess 4 and harpazo, an abduction in broad daylight right in front of everyone.

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, sorry, never have been a pastor. I am placed in the body of Christ as a teacher. Some pastors are good teachers, but others are preachers.

One of the many?

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe a better question would be WHY Paul wrote this passage as he did. Well, maybe not, for we know he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write. So why did God have Paul write this passage the way He did? In your mind, does a falling away (from what is not given) equate to the restrainer being "taken out of the way?"

If you were to distance yourself from two false assumptions: "a falling away (from what is not given)" and "the restrainer being "taken out of the way?"" then I could answer a proper question. 

What's being restrained is the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect; these events are restrained by the nonoccurrence of the revolt and the revealing of the man of sin.

Once those two occur Jesus can return and kidnap us.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can evil restrain evil? I think not. GOD can restrain evil. God can prevent the man of sin from being revealed until the right time. 

Of course, but this has nothing to do with the order as laid out by Paul. First revolt and revealing, then Christ and gathering. 

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but 1 Thes. 4 & 5 are easy to understand, along with 1 Cor. 15. Most people agree on what these verses say. There is GREAT disagreement on the 2 Thes. 2 passage.

Just so you know, I am certainly NOT calling Paul "into question." Our job is to understand what God meant for us to understand in that passage. Most people read right over "is revealed" in 3b and read right over "now you know what is restraining" in verse 6. Most people's theories ignores these two statements. 

In short, I TRUST Paul! I am sure he knew every possible meaning of this compound word. 

You are calling it all into question with dogged insistence to the point of changing definitions and meaning. All pretrib does this. 'Harpazo' is the rapture, apostasia is rebellion. They are not equivalent. 1 Thess 4:17 uses harpazo and 2 Thess 2:3 says apostasia. You are saying they have similar definitions and concepts when they do not.

You don't trust that Paul meant what he said and said what he meant as inspired to write at the moment of pen on paper, or relating what he learned from the Apostles, or perhaps was given on the road to Damascus. 

If your argument is that Paul knew exactly what he was doing then why do you not trust Paul choose the correct word with the exact meaning he wanted to convey?

Since you cannot interview Paul to ascertain his mindset or intent you are simply trafficking in wishes and hope. Paul cannot be interrogated so we can only go with what he wrote as inspired; 'harpazo' for the gathering, 'revolt' before Jesus returns.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm

So yes, you left this out. I can take a picture of the page in the hard copy and post it if you like.

No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no matter how much you hope or sincerely believe, it's a revolt, not an abduction from one place to go to another.

THE rapture verse of the NT in 1 Thess 4 shows harpazo as the rapture:

"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up [harpazo]..."

Strong's Concordance

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away

Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

HELPS Word-studies

726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

 

Literally forcing apostasia to take on the definition and concepts of harpazo is no way to prove your point.

Unrelated. Taken out of the way is 'ginomai', that's an emergence. Doesn't fit anyway with the holy grail of pretrib which is 1 Thess 4 and harpazo, an abduction in broad daylight right in front of everyone.

 

One of the many?

If you were to distance yourself from two false assumptions: "a falling away (from what is not given)" and "the restrainer being "taken out of the way?"" then I could answer a proper question. 

What's being restrained is the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect; these events are restrained by the nonoccurrence of the revolt and the revealing of the man of sin.

Once those two occur Jesus can return and kidnap us.

Of course, but this has nothing to do with the order as laid out by Paul. First revolt and revealing, then Christ and gathering. 

 

You are calling it all into question with dogged insistence to the point of changing definitions and meaning. All pretrib does this. 'Harpazo' is the rapture, apostasia is rebellion. They are not equivalent. 1 Thess 4:17 uses harpazo and 2 Thess 2:3 says apostasia. You are saying they have similar definitions and concepts when they do not.

You don't trust that Paul meant what he said and said what he meant as inspired to write at the moment of pen on paper, or relating what he learned from the Apostles, or perhaps was given on the road to Damascus. 

If your argument is that Paul knew exactly what he was doing then why do you not trust Paul choose the correct word with the exact meaning he wanted to convey?

Since you cannot interview Paul to ascertain his mindset or intent you are simply trafficking in wishes and hope. Paul cannot be interrogated so we can only go with what he wrote as inspired; 'harpazo' for the gathering, 'revolt' before Jesus returns.

You are mistaken, it was not deliberate. My intention was to include everything Strong's said. When I first copied and pasted from Strong's, it pasted formatting stuff, so I had to paste to notepad first. I missed the definition of the first word. Sorry. 

No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no matter how much you hope or sincerely believe, it's a revolt, not an abduction from one place to go to another. 

If Paul meant a "revolt," you are now faced with the problem of making that definition fit the context. If words mean anything (and they do) then "revolt" has to be the restrainer being "taken out of the way." How can you get around this? Please explain to us how "revolt" can have anything to do with the restrainer and it being "taken out of the way."

Literally forcing apostasia to take on the definition and concepts of harpazo is no way to prove your point.

This is not what anyone is doing. As the first several translations into English put it, the harpazo is a departing and a departing is a harpazo. It is where a part of a whole group is transported to a different location, exactly as Strong's has for "apo."

Question: at the rapture, is anyone moved "spatially?" That is Strong's definition of "apo." I am only trying to show you that Paul knew very well that apostasia was a compound word that could have the meaning of the two separate words put together: a departing done so fast the rest of the world seems standing still. In fact, a "falling away" (from what is not given) is indeed a departing from SOMETHING. 

When you arrive (if you ever do) to the place where you can make your own English translation from the Greek texts, as these men did: Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Cranmer, Matthew, and Beza, perhaps then you will understand that "departing" is a good English word for the Greek "apostasia." 

Again I must ask: at the rapture, is there a "departing?" 

Taken out of the way is 'ginomai', that's an emergence.  Ha! So you insist that the KJV "falling away" is the best translation, but you disagree with their translation into "taken out of the way." Green's literal shows that phrase as "until it comes out of the midst." Others put it:

out of the way, he be gone, removed from the scene, is removed,  is taken away, from out of the midst.  "Out of the way" seems by far the must used. Therefore I think the KJV did well with this phrase. At the rapture, the Restrainer - the Holy Spirit - will indeed by "taken out of the way" or "gone from the midst" because He resides IN all the believers. 

Strong's #1 definition of ginomai is "to become" which fits with the rest of the Greek as "to become out of the way." or to become "out of the midst." To me, "taken out of the way" is a good way to translate it.  At the great departing (of the church) certainly the body of Christ on earth, with the Holy Spirit residing inside of each one, is "gone from the midst" of all the rest of the population. 

You wrote: Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away

At the rapture, the church is indeed snatched away, and when they will have been snatched away, they will also have departed, and will be gone from the midst. A part of a whole group will be removed spatially to another location. 

What's being restrained is the Coming of Jesus

How can you say this ? Follow the bold:

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he might be revealed in his time. ("he" here goes right back to the "man of sin.")

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [the restraining power] who now letteth [restrains] will let [restrain], until he [the restrainer]  be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked [the man of sin] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him [the man of sin], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Since you don't understand who or what is being restrained, it makes sense you don't understand the rest of this passage.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If Paul meant a "revolt," you are now faced with the problem of making that definition fit the context. If words mean anything (and they do) then "revolt" has to be the restrainer being "taken out of the way." How can you get around this? Please explain to us how "revolt" can have anything to do with the restrainer and it being "taken out of the way."

False. I am not faced with any such problem. A theme will be repeated and that is:

"That day shall not come except revolt and the revealing occur first." 'That day' can only be the coming and the gathering. As Paul said;

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"

The 'it' here is the coming and gathering. It can be nothing else. The order is established and it cannot be changed.

So if the gathering cannot occur until the  'falling away' occurs. Then what you have here is a gathering happening before the gathering.  

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Literally forcing apostasia to take on the definition and concepts of harpazo is no way to prove your point.

This is not what anyone is doing. As the first several translations into English put it, the harpazo is a departing and a departing is a harpazo. It is where a part of a whole group is transported to a different location, exactly as Strong's has for "apo."

But Paul didn't write 'apo', did he? And you're missing a key element in the definition and usage of 'apo'; it's a separation from. Harpazo is a gathering to.

The whole idea of the gathering is bringing us to meet the Lord as Paul points out here; "our being gathered to him". I know what you are getting at but Paul never likens the gathering to 'separation from the world' but a 'gathering to'. 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question: at the rapture, is anyone moved "spatially?" That is Strong's definition of "apo." I am only trying to show you that Paul knew very well that apostasia was a compound word that could have the meaning of the two separate words put together: a departing done so fast the rest of the world seems standing still. In fact, a "falling away" (from what is not given) is indeed a departing from SOMETHING. 

Yes, and a change of location is described in 1 Thess 4. Why did you stop there with the possible usage and idea of 'apo'?

" of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place (of departing, fleeing, removing, expelling, throwing, " [This is not gathering to]

"of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken:" [We are not being separated from, we are being taken to]

" of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed;" [This doesn't follow the idea of gathering to]

So Paul understood something. You can't know that; you're just guessing since you cannot ask the author. That knowledge doesn't mean that's what Paul intended. Paul intended what he wrote; first the rebellion and the beast, then the coming and the gathering.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When you arrive (if you ever do) to the place where you can make your own English translation from the Greek texts, as these men did: Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Cranmer, Matthew, and Beza, perhaps then you will understand that "departing" is a good English word for the Greek "apostasia." 

I have looked at many translations and used several different Greek/English translators as well as searched the etymology of 'apostasia'. The translators never return 'departing' and the etymology establishes rebellion, revolt or defection as the definition from as far back as the first copies of 2 Thess 2. 

"Departing" holds many ideas. In fact there are 20+ different words for 'departing' used in the NT and many by Paul. Funny he didn't use one in 2 Thess 2:3.

Even so, the problem remains of a gathering before the gathering if one insists apostasia means departing from one place to go to another. There is a departing in 2 Thess 2, it's a departing from God. You'll see. We all will see.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again I must ask: at the rapture, is there a "departing?" 

A departing from the world yes. But that idea is no where to be found except in the desperate, blind groping of a failed doctrine. Every time the 'rapture' is taught it's always a gathering to, not a departing from. 

The departing that's in view is a departure from the faith of God. I don't know why this is so difficult to comprehend. We see it every day en masse. Every mega church and every televangelist has long age departed from the faith. Some equate themselves with the Godhead, like the Pope. They aren't at the point where they have publicly sworn fealty to a false god but they have privately. They are leading millions right into the waiting maw of the beast. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Taken out of the way is 'ginomai', that's an emergence. 

Ha! So you insist that the KJV "falling away" is the best translation, but you disagree with their translation into "taken out of the way." Green's literal shows that phrase as "until it comes out of the midst." Others put it:

out of the way, he be gone, removed from the scene, is removed,  is taken away, from out of the midst.  "Out of the way" seems by far the must used. Therefore I think the KJV did well with this phrase. At the rapture, the Restrainer - the Holy Spirit - will indeed by "taken out of the way" or "gone from the midst" because He resides IN all the believers. 

No, I don't insist 'falling away' is the best rendering. It captures the sense of the action in that it's a change in ideology. I much prefer 'defection'. Rebellion is also apt.

Consensus is just group think. If you want to know how it's phrased go to the Greek. 

The illogic of the pretrib position, and many others, is on full display in this havoc wreaked upon the words of Paul. How do you justify changing the order from 

"for that day [The Coming and Gathering] will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, " 

to the Holy Spirit restraining evil when Paul says; "And now you know what is holding him [The Lord] back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time." ???

Paul begins with saying the Day isn't coming until the beast is revealed. Therefore the revealing of the beast is what is holding back the Coming of the Lord. Nothing in the text mentions Michael, the Holy Spirit, or the church holding back evil. Nothing. Zero evidence. 

This made up story of the Holy Spirit being taken from the earth is tedious and reckless imo. What inhabits all the believers in Jesus during GT? Red Bull? 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Strong's #1 definition of ginomai is "to become" which fits with the rest of the Greek as "to become out of the way." or to become "out of the midst." To me, "taken out of the way" is a good way to translate it.  At the great departing (of the church) certainly the body of Christ on earth, with the Holy Spirit residing inside of each one, is "gone from the midst" of all the rest of the population. 

You're close. This is the reason why we see it translated as it is. But you're wrong on the identity of the actors, their roles and the order. The context is, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" and the well put order of things is, " that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed,"

Paul says here the Day isn't coming until the beast is revealed. You cannot change the context or order by whimsy. Since the context and order is clear from the beginning, as well as the roles of the actors ergo;

What is being restrained is the Day Christ comes and what is restraining is the non-occurrence of the revealing of the beast.

But yes; the beast 'becomes out of the way' buy the revealing event. Meaning now that he has emerged on the world stage the Day of Christ and the gathering of the elect can occur where before it could not.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You wrote: Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away

At the rapture, the church is indeed snatched away, and when they will have been snatched away, they will also have departed, and will be gone from the midst. A part of a whole group will be removed spatially to another location.

Yes, as described in 1 Thess 4. This is the idea, catching up to a meeting in the clouds, a gather to. You place the focus on the by product of leaving when no instrument of the Holy Spirit does so. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What's being restrained is the Coming of Jesus

How can you say this ? Follow the bold:

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he might be revealed in his time. ("he" here goes right back to the "man of sin.")

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [the restraining power] who now letteth [restrains] will let [restrain], until he [the restrainer]  be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked [the man of sin] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him [the man of sin], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Since you don't understand who or what is being restrained, it makes sense you don't understand the rest of this passage.

Typical. Leave out the context of the first 2 verses.  Look at verse 3. What day is it that shall not come until the revealing? So not only does the twisted logic of a fear based doctrine demand the gathering occurs before the gathering; now the revealing of the beast cannot occur till the beast is revealed?

Paul is clear. The beast will be revealed before  Christ comes. The revealing of the beast is harbinger of the Coming of the Lord. What is held back is the Day of the Lord and what is holding back the Coming of the Lord is the as yet to happen emergence of the beast on the world stage. 

[DeighAnn]

WHAT POST TRIBS BELIEVE IS THAT CHRIST HAS ALREADY DONE ALL HIS WORK, AND NOW IT IS TIME FOR US TO DO OURS.  

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

WHEN WAS CHRIST RISEN?  AFTER THE WORK WAS DONE.  NOT BEFORE





THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE THEORY WOULD HAVE THE SAVIOUR COMING TO KILL THE "CHURCH" BECAUSE

WHO ARE WE TOLD WILL BE RETURNING WITH HIM?

1  Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

NOT THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN RAPTURED, BUT THOSE WHICH SLEEP (HAVE DIED)




THE VERY DEFINITION OF THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE THEORY IS "SAVING" THEMSELVES FROM 
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Luke 17:33 WHOSOEVER SHALL SEEK TO SAVE HIS LIFE SHALL LOSE IT;  AND WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE SHALL PRESERVE IT. 


CERTAINLY MAKES THIS MAKE SENSE
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.




BUT there is a gathering before 'the gathering to Christ'.  It is done by Satan.  The overcomer SENT to overcome

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, BUT NOT BY HIS OWN POWER and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.



Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


WHEN TAKEN/OVERCOME BY THE ANTI CHRIST IN DECEPTION, ONE BECOMES UNFAITHFUL TO GOD, NO LONGER A VIRGIN, SPIRITUALLY DEAD and HAVE ALLOWED THE FIRST THING JESUS COMMANDED US 

(Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you).

NOT TO LET HAPPEN, HAPPEN.




ANGELS AS MEN   Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Genesis 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.



WHY would Gods servants need to be SEALED before the four winds are released?

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

WHO ARE GODS SERVANTS?






BUT IT ALL STILL COMES DOWN TO ALL WHO CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THE PRE TRIB RAP THEORY FIRST VOIDING

 

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

UNTIL THAT CAN BE EXPLAINED AWAY BY THE WORD OF GOD, ALL THE REST IS JUST A WASTE OF PRECIOUS TIME.  WHO CAN SEPARATE WHAT CHRIST MAKES ONE?  


ISN'T THAT WHAT SATAN WOULD LOVE TO SEE?  KEEP GOING OVER THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER?  WHAT DOES THAT SERVE TO DO??  IT KEEPS US FROM MATURING IN CHRIST.  MOVING ON TOWARDS PERFECTION.  KEEPING US AS A CHILDREN, THINKING LIKE A CHILD.  





IF ANYONE WAS BEING 'RAPPED' WHY TELL US TO HOLD FAST?
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.




Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

HASN'T SET BEFORE US A 'TRIP' TO HEAVEN, A GET OUT OF TRIB FREE CARD, OR ANY OTHER KIND OF ESCAPE






 

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

But yes; the beast 'becomes out of the way' buy the revealing event. Meaning now that he has emerged on the world stage the Day of Christ and the gathering of the elect can occur where before it could not.

THANK YOU.  All of it well put, but this clarifies for me VERY nicely.  

 

[DeighAnn]

YET ANOTHER PLACE A PRE TRIB RAP THEORY DOESN'T WORK OR GET MENTION



1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
THE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP,

THEREFORE THERE CAN BE NONE LEFT. 

EXACTLY AS IT WILL BE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE WHEN 'ALL' WILL BE CHANGED.  
WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF 'LEAVING AFTER THAT'
AS THERE WOULD BE NO ONE LEFT.  WOULD GOD LEAVE ONLY EVIL UPON THE EARTH TO BRING 'WHOMSOEVER WOULD' OR THE TWO WITNESSES AS THE ONLY HOPE FOR ALL THE REST OF MANKIND?  WHO WOULD BE 'DELIVERED UP'?  

(UNLESS, OF COURSE, GODS WORD ONCE AGAIN IS NOT WRITTEN AS GOD INTENDED.  IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT GOD, WHO CREATED ALL THINGS AND GAVE LAWS TO ALL THINGS AND INVENTED LANGUAGE, WOULD SO OFTEN NOT HAVE WHAT HE MEANT END UP AS WHAT IS WRITTEN AND WHAT IS NEVER WRITTEN AS WHAT HE MEANT.  IT MUST BE EITHER IGNORANCE, EVIL, OR BLINDNESS.) 


I WONDER HOW MANY 'THAT'S NOT WHAT IS MEANT'  IT TAKES UNTIL ONE WOULD ASK THEMSELVES 'COULD THIS BE RIGHT'?  HOW FAR IS ONE WILLING TO KEEP TWISTING?

FOR A THEORY.  SERIOUSLY, FOR JUST A THEORY.  



1 THE DEAD RETURNING WITH CHRIST ARE NOT THOSE WHO HAVE GONE TO SLEEP/SLEPT IN THE LORD  (THE SUBJECT OF THE TEACHING)

BUT ARE IN FACT THOSE OF "A PRE TRIB RAPPED CHURCH"

2  THE FALLING AWAY IS NOT FROM CHRIST AND FAITH AND TRUTH BY THE DECEPTION

BUT IS IN FACT IS A GATHERING TO CHRIST

3  THOSE WHO ARE 'KEPT' ARE NOT 'KEPT' BY KNOWLEDGE/GOSPEL ARMOR AKA SPIRITUALLY, AS THEY ARE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE WORD

BUT ARE IN FACT TAKEN AWAY,  PHYSICALLY

4 NOT TO SUFFER GODS WRATH OR IT'S NOT FALLING UPON US,  ISN'T BECAUSE GOD ISN'T ANGRY WITH US 

BUT IT IS  BECOME A REASON FOR A PRE TRIB RAPPED CHURCH

5  THE ELDERS SEEN IN HEAVEN ARE NOT 'ELDERS' SEEN THROUGHOUT AT ALL 

BUT ARE NOW A PRE TRIB RAPPED CHURCH

ALL BECAUSE THE CHURCH AS AN ENTITY IS NOT MENTIONED AGAIN.

(COMPLETELY SKIPPING THE REST OF THE POINT IN THE MESSAGES TO  CHURCHS, ENDING IN "HIM WHO OVERCOMES", AS IN EACH PERSON WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR HIMSELF AND HIS OWN CONDUCT, AND WHAT TEACHING TO GET RID OF AND WHAT ONES TO KNOW)

BUT IT BEING TAKEN AWAY (AGAIN,  LEAVING NO ONE TO COME BACK TO)


 

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

NOT MAKE UP A GREAT ESCAPE, SOMETHING THAT WILL APPLY TO ONLY ONE GENERATION AND ONE GENERATION ONLY 

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

GOT TO BE HERE TO HEAR.  (EVEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION HAS HAPPENED BEFORE)

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

THAT DAY OVERTAKE YOU, GOT TO BE HERE FOR THIS TOO!
 

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

DON'T SLEEP, WATCH, BE SOBER, AND WHAT FOLLOWS?  PUTTING ON A WEDDING DRESS?  NO, ARMOR.  FAITH, LOVE, HOPE.  

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

WHY DO WE PUT ON FAITH, LOVE, HOPE?  TO KEEP OUT OF WRATHS WAY AND TO OBTAIN SALVATION, NO FLIGHTS MENTIONED AGAIN

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
DOES IT SAY WAKE SLEEP OR FLY?  NO.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

SO BEING ALIVE IN CHRIST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STATE OF THE FLESH BODY AT ALL.  AND WE ARE TO HAVE NO FEAR OF EITHER THE FLESH DEATH OR ANY EVIL THAT HOPES TO COME UPON US (AS ONLY GOD CAN KILL THE SOUL AND AS WE WERE GIVEN POWER OVER EVIL THROUGH THE NAME OF JESUS OF NAZARETH)

[The Light]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

False. I am not faced with any such problem. A theme will be repeated and that is:

"That day shall not come except revolt and the revealing occur first." 'That day' can only be the coming and the gathering. As Paul said;

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"

The 'it' here is the coming and gathering. It can be nothing else. The order is established and it cannot be changed.

So if the gathering cannot occur until the  'falling away' occurs. Then what you have here is a gathering happening before the gathering. 

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The rapture of the Church occurs before any seals are opened. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. Two different events.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The rapture of the Church occurs before any seals are opened. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. Two different events.

Ok. If you could show where scripture says there is a gathering before the seals open containing statements like: 'these came out of' like in Rev 7 or, 'I will send my angels to gather the elect' like in Matt 24 or, 'that day will not come until' as in 2 Thess 2, then I'll change me mind.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Diaste