Understanding the timing of the rapture is too easy

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

Except for 1Thes:

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...

THEN.......WE who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord"

This "catching up" only happens after the dead in Christ rise FIRST. This is the FIRST resurrection that Rev 20:5-6 alludes to....

" The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection, over these the second death has no power; but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

So we are raptured AFTER the dead in Christ are raised. I think that you have to agree....yes?

Now I will give you credit for believing that the "departing, apostasy, rapture" and the "revealing of the antichrist" ALL must happen before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath. Absolutely. No believer is subject to God's Wrath. 

If we examine 2 Thes 1:4-   

" We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.".....( right here we are told about tribulation )

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering". 

"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to those who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution ........" 

God will pour out His wrath after the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ are rescued............ this is not a rescue from tribulation, it is a rescue from God's Wrath. They are two different scenarios. Tribulation has been/is going on still today. The great tribulation is the "megas tribulation". Megas means widespread, not more intense. This great tribulation will have a global impact, affecting almost every place on earth. It is Satan's wrath..... Rev 12:12....."woe to the inhabitants of earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath". God's wrath happens after. God will not share His glory with Satan...."God alone will be exalted in that day"..... Isa 2:11

We are told that tribulation is God's righteous judgment so that we will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God............. for which indeed we will suffer!

It's right there..... this is Paul's teaching. We will go through tribulation. We will suffer. Our perseverance and faith will get us through the persecutions and afflictions we will face.....with the help from the Holy Spirit.

We will face the antichrist. We will be tested by his deceptions, by his temptations to take his mark, to bow down to him so that we can eat.  But God has given us scripture that says He will give us some of the hidden manna..... He will provide for us.... our faith in Him and our perseverance will carry us through. And if we die.... hooray! We died for Him!..... 

Now....pick up your cross and follow Him.

We are only disagreeing on terms. If we believe Paul and John, the dead in Christ rising and then the catching up comes before wrath, as you have said, but John shows us wrath starts before the entire 70th week. The entire 70th week (trumpets in the first half, vials in the last half) comes with wrath, so the rapture comes before the week. People have used the nomenclature of "pretrib" but in reality it should be pre-70th week.

When I was young and not so wise, I thought it would be an honor to die for my country. (I was drafted.) Then I found out the real honor was to make the enemy die for his country.  In this scenario, the real heroes will become born again and be raptured out before any part of the 70th week. You are mistaken. We are not going to face the Antichrist. Why? Because at the same time he is coming to power, God is pouring out wrath. Sorry, but no one can separate God's wrath (in time) from Satan's wrath because they happen concurrently.  Always remember, for those who do face the Antichrist, they will be overcome. It will not be God's best for them - for they should have been ready and escaped all these things in the rapture. The real heroes will be those who get born again and so are caught up to escape all these things.

How did John write this? The Antichrist comes to power in chapter 13. While chapter 14 is taking place, the two beasts are creating the image and the mark. Finally, at the end of chapter 14, they begin enforcing the image and mark, and the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of will begin. 

In comparison, where in Revelation will the rapture be? It will be before God's wrath and before the start of the DAY of His wrath - so before the 6th seal. All we have to do is follow John's chronology. 

It's right there..... this is Paul's teaching. We will go through tribulation.  Yes, OF COURSE we go through tribulation. In Rev. 7, God called the entire church age as mega tribulation, due to its long duration. But the rapture is God's escape plan for "the tribulation" that is identified as the 70th week. "Pre-trib" as it is called is the truth of God's word.

Now, if you want to stay behind and face the AC, that is your choice. I would advise you to believe the WORD: John saw the raptured church in heaven before any part of the 70th week. In other words, EXPECT to be caught up before the 70th week. After all, it is for Daniel's people, not the church. 

God's wrath happens after. God will not share His glory with Satan...."God alone will be exalted in that day"..... Isa 2:11

Can we use a little common sense?

To whom will the nations of the world be take from, and to WHOM will they be given? To WHOM was it written, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned" after the nations of the world have been given to Him?

Therefore, WHO give who 42 months of authority?

WHO then is the exalted ONE?  WHO then is glorified for the ENTIRE 70th week? Sorry, but the Beast will have no glory - not even when he is overcoming the saints. He can only do what God allows him to do.

We cannot use human reasoning here. We MUST follow what is written. It is JESUS who delegates the 42 months of authority.  It is JESUS who allows the saints to be overcome. It is JESUS who will cause the vials to be poured out to shorten those days of GT. Jesus is reigning over the entire planet all during the 70th week and especially during the days of GT.  Your idea does not align with scripture. 

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

You think? A compound word has it's own definition and usage, it doesn't carry the definition and usage of the prefix. But carry on....

Too hung up on the restrainer and forgetting the overall context.

No. There were false reports circulating. Paul is affirming the truth's he taught them and telling them to ignore anything else. I can only speculate on the mindset of the Thessalonians and what was going on with them.

But yes, it seems reasonable to conclude the Thessalonians were under the mistaken impression they were caught up in a time in which they were not supposed to be in. 

And don't forget Paul begins 2 Thess 2 with; "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus AND our gathering together to Him.

It's not just the day of wrath they feared they were in but also that the had missed the gathering.

Well...one doesn't cancel the other. It's clear the scenario would play out as Jesus put it; The Signs appear, the earth mourns as Jesus appears, the angels are sent to gather the elect, wrath falls. Plausible and unforced and the very best understanding of the Coming, the Gathering and wrath.

Yes, you have said this many, many times. No scripture is offered, but you believe it.

Except for apostasia is rebellion, revolt or, defection. It's only departing from an ideology, and is not a harpazo.  This crowbar of irrational thinking pretrib uses to leverage harpazo into 2 Thess 2:3 is just outstanding. 

Not exactly. We are told we do not suffer wrath so we will never be in it. But this is the pretrib way. Pretrib believers avoid wrath yet allow for their own brothers and sisters to suffer God's wrath. Shockingly prejudicial.

No, no, no...Paul does not say that.

"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.…"

This peace and safety is not necessarily tied to the day of the Lord and that destruction. It could be but it's not clear here. It looks to me like this is a sign of the times. Paul is telling us what it will look like. I think that's supported by the cries for peace and security we have been hearing. No sudden destruction as yet.

Fine. Have it your way. Ignore that Paul, whom you cite often as your pretrib oracle, links the Coming and the gathering together;

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

Forget that Jesus did the same:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

There will be no gathering of the saints until the beast is revealed, the megachurches and their followers have all sworn allegiance to the beast, including the Catholic church and the acolytes of western televangelists, and the the Signs of the coming of the Son of Man occur. 

OF COURSE the "coming" and the "gathering" are linked: we meet Him in the air. How could there be the gathering if Jesus did not call us up? 

It seems you are absolutely determined to meet the Beast. Good luck with that! I and the church will be caught up  - departed - as the restrainer taken out of the way - and THEN the man of sin will be revealed. 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE the "coming" and the "gathering" are linked: we meet Him in the air. How could there be the gathering if Jesus did not call us up? 

It seems you are absolutely determined to meet the Beast. Good luck with that! I and the church will be caught up  - departed - as the restrainer taken out of the way - and THEN the man of sin will be revealed. 

No, I'm not keen on the way things are determined. I trust in Jesus. 

It's about eternal life of the soul and escaping eternal death, not about the salvation of the flesh.

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

No, I'm not keen on the way things are determined. I trust in Jesus. 

It's about eternal life of the soul and escaping eternal death, not about the salvation of the flesh.

 

God loves His Bride. He cares as much about our flesh as we do. It is our flesh that gives us authority on earth. Of course eternal life is more important.