What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Waggles said:

Good points presented - so a living soul is our body and consciousness ?? 

Now in Mathew chapter 10 Jesus says the following - 

26 “So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, utter in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim upon the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. 

so is Jesus differentiating between soul and body - between spirit and flesh ??? 

any ideas about this please. 

Shalom, Waggles.

You ask a valid question, and others have noticed it, as well.. The key is in the Greek word translated "destroy," which is different than the words translated as "kill" and "cannot kill."

The words for "kill" (apoktennontoon) and "cannot kill" (apokteinai) come from the Greek word listed in Strong's as ...

615 apokteinoo or apoktennoo (ap-ok-ti'-no). From apo and kteinoo (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy
-- put to death, kill, slay.

The word for "destroy" (apolesai) is a form of ...

622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee). From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively
-- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It's the difference between death and the Second Death!

Furthermore, it's the JUDGMENT SEAT OF THE MESSIAH! For the word "gee-henna" or "ge-enna" in the Greek is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase "Gei-Hinnowm," which is the "Valley of (the son of) Hinnowm" where the judgment seats of the kings of Israel were set. It's the valley just outside of Yerushalayim between the trash heap on his left, where criminals were put to death, and the Golden Gate to the city on his right!

Between the two conclusions, Yeshua` is talking about the Great White Throne Judgment!

Edited April 7, 2021 by Retrobyter

[Waggles]

28 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Between the two conclusions, Yeshua` is talking about the Great White Throne Judgment!

OK if our soul is our living body (our entity) then why does God refer to both body and soul being destroyed. 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What exactly gets resurrected up for this judgement - our bodies? our souls? Both? How does this work? --- no pressure  

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

OK if our soul is our living body (our entity) then why does God refer to both body and soul being destroyed. 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What exactly gets resurrected up for this judgement - our bodies? our souls? Both? How does this work? --- no pressure  

In Gen. 2:7 God gave us the formula for His creation- one part dirt and one part God’s breathing into this dirt. Most consider this second part- this “breathed” act to be simple air. I don’t And this has been mentioned a few times much earlier. 

But these two parts A + B = C, BECAME a “living soul”. This means we have the definition of a “living soul” and this CAN NOT ever change. I certainly can not speak to any translation issues, whether it be from Greek / Hebrew to English, or  how a writer determined or interpreted the meaning, but this formula must be honored and we need to investigate what God is telling us WITHOUT adding or subtracting to HIS verse.

So, (for me), if B is more than simple air, then this is what was lost when Adam sinned. He was still alive and could breath so what was taken back from him that would cause him to be allowed in the presence of God? Let’s call it “His Spirit” (not the HOLY SPIRIT). This now returned to God and we are no longer immortal and able to be in His Presence.

Now, after sin, we are a “living body” (physical being breathing air going about his / her business), but no longer a “living soul” as God had designed. 

The first death is the dearth of this “living being”, and where God tells us not to worry about those that can kill the “body” (living body), but worry about the ONE who can destroy both “body and soul”.  

We can exist and live outside of the Garden without “His Spirit” that was breathed into us. We can also die outside the Garden (first death). 

But at the end of all things those that are “in Christ” will be restored by God and He will once again complete the original formula of Gen. 2:7. We will once again be a “living soul”, but of course we will be perfected. However at the day of judgment, for all those “not in Christ”, this will not be the same! They will not be restored as those “in Christ” - they will never be a “living soul” and will be destroyed. 

Even after Adam sinned we kept our body, we still breathed the same air, we all still died a physical death, BUT the true thing we must fear is the death of the “living soul” - God not putting part B back with part A to once again create a “living soul”. 

Anyone can kill the body, but only God can destroy the “living soul” by NOT imparting His Spirit back into us at the resurrection.

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

 

[Waggles]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Even after Adam sinned we kept our body, we still breathed the same air, we all still died a physical death, BUT the true thing we must fear is the death of the “living soul” - God not putting part B back with part A to once again create a “living soul”. 

Anyone can kill the body, but only God can destroy the “living soul” by NOT imparting His Spirit back into us at the resurrection.

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

Thankyou I appreciate your thoughts on this.

But as for the lake of fire that is not annihilation of the soul. People will still be conscious and will suffer pain and sorrow for an eternity. 

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” [cited by Jesus again Mark 9:48)

2Thess 1:9  They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Even those that experience the resurrection unto condemnation retain a permanent ongoing body of sorts that can experience pain and anguish. 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Waggles said:

Thankyou I appreciate your thoughts on this.

But as for the lake of fire that is not annihilation of the soul. People will still be conscious and will suffer pain and sorrow for an eternity. 

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” [cited by Jesus again Mark 9:48)

2Thess 1:9  They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Even those that experience the resurrection unto condemnation retain a permanent ongoing body of sorts that can experience pain and anguish. 

Thanks Waggles! I was addressing the definition of a living soul at the beginning of creation in the Garden and then everything must come full circle - either we are to be restored as God created us or we will not be given His Spirit back into this body.

Now I believe you might be moving on to the next issue  - what happens to this resurrected living body which is NOT in Christ and where HE does NOT place His Spirit back into that body...... 

Without putting words into your mouth, I think you might believe there is eternal and everlasting punishment to this "body"...... whether it is seen as eternal fire or torture or whatever ....... this will last for eternity...... 

I don't follow that line of thought for many reasons...... despite the language mentioned in Revelation and other books, I believe they are not literal but figurative.... I also find that God would never torture anyone for their sins for eternity - makes no sense to me.... God does and will punish but HE has never nor will ever torture anyone ...... certainly not for eternity.

And also, God does tell us that we should not worry about those that can kill the body...... but the ONE who can destroy both body and soul....... 

God's punishment is to both the body and the soul... and it is not punishing for eternity but complete and immediate destruction.... "they will be no more".

Again, that is a topic down the line I believe..... look forward to your comments and thoughts  - always, Charlie

[Waggles]

22 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

God's punishment is to both the body and the soul... and it is not punishing for eternity but complete and immediate destruction.... "they will be no more".

But scripture does use terms such as 'eternal' and 'everlasting' punishment - so why would scripture not be true to its own wording?

If souls or bodies are to vapourised in brimstone then why not say so? Afterall scripture needs to be "truthful" so that doctrine is true. 

As to the lake of fire I once had a terrifying vision of this many years ago and I fell backwards off my chair. 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Waggles said:

But scripture does use terms such as 'eternal' and 'everlasting' punishment - so why would scripture not be true to its own wording?

If souls or bodies are to vapourised in brimstone then why not say so? Afterall scripture needs to be "truthful" so that doctrine is true. 

As to the lake of fire I once had a terrifying vision of this many years ago and I fell backwards off my chair. 

Well, I have not studied this topic as I should to be able to address the many questions... but I do believe the “second death” is exactly that- a final death and not an eternal punishment. 

I believe it might be similar to those verses throughout the Scriptures when speaking of the body, the soul and the spirit. Almost everyone believes we are made of 3 parts based on the use of these words... and clearly, they can be very confusing... 

So, I would have to go back to square 1 in the Scriptures and identify this “second death”. 

It clearly can not be both! Eternal punishment or a second death.  A lot of colorful language, a lot of deliberate and ridiculous beliefs by the RCC (Donte’s inferno, purgatory, etc.,), but I see nothing in HIS character in the Scriptures that speaks of torture, those kind of things... 

Again, I would need to study this much more, Charlie 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

52 minutes ago, Waggles said:

But scripture does use terms such as 'eternal' and 'everlasting' punishment - so why would scripture not be true to its own wording?

If souls or bodies are to vapourised in brimstone then why not say so? Afterall scripture needs to be "truthful" so that doctrine is true. 

As to the lake of fire I once had a terrifying vision of this many years ago and I fell backwards off my chair. 

Because to not have life, to be separated from God for all eternity, to be as though never having been, that is the punishment.  

The word of God is very clear.  
 

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

THIS is the end of this age.  


THIS is the beginning, or IN THE BEGINNING, God created a new heaven and a new earth

For the first heaven and earth, this 'AGE' is gone.  Completely.  There will be no remembrance of it.  

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


And we can BE SURE of that.  Because if Grandma and Grampa are right over there screaming and crying and burning up FOREVER, there would be tears, our hearts would hurt.  BLOTTED OUT is the same as NEVER WAS.  

AS the lake of fire is part of this age, it will become a part of the former things that are passed away.  

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


 

Revelation 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


And then it goes back to describing events that end this age.  

I hope this helps, I know it did me.  God isn't going to 'punish' forever those who CAN'T LOVE.  Just make them gone so a new and perfect age with us dwelling with God can begin.  And in the beginning.....and so it goes.  

Funny thing that the former things will not be remembered, again.  Made me  ponder how many 'In the beginnings' there had been.  It certainly would explain how God could know all He does about us, how some were pre ordained and how what we may view as 'un Just', really isn't when in possession of all the facts.  Would explain Satans kingdom and when he ruled as a king and fell and ended up the serpent in the garden.    Who knows could be the third or even more attempts God has given us,  to 'weed out' those who just don't appreciate the gift of dwelling with Him, immortality and in a perfect body.  Who knows?  WE WILL soon see and know...  

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Again, I would need to study this much more, Charlie 

 

yes I too need to have some thought about body and soul - spirit I understand and that is given by God to all living things in creation and returns unto God when living things die. God knows every ant that we step on  

Back to scripture and reading up on words

52 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Who knows could be the third or even more attempts God has given us,  to 'weed out' those who just don't appreciate the gift of dwelling with Him, immortality and in a perfect body.  Who knows?  WE WILL soon see and know...  

Hhhhmmm some interesting points of speculation to ponder here.

But it is all a mystery mostly. For now we see in a mirror darkly [in obscurity], but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. - 1Cor 13:12

"Who shall be punished with everlasting [perpetual] destruction [to destroy] from the presence of the Lord, ..." - maybe this is referring to destruction of body and soul as truly a second death (the first being physical death of a body but not death of the soul). Forever nothing or forever castaway from the presence of God trapped in a dark abyss with demons ?? 

All I know is that I do not want this for myself nor for other people. It is too gruesome an alternative to contemplate. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Waggles

[DeighAnn]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

God FORMED the body out of dust from the ground; then God JUMP-STARTED the living air-breather by puffing a puff of air into his nostrils! That's what a "SOUL" is!

To think that the "soul" is different than the "body" is wrong. The "soul" is not the "real you" in that sense, and one doesn't change "bodies" like one changes "shirts!"

I still can not follow this line of thought AND these are the things that I would FIRST need explained  

nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

1.   There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

IT DOESN'T SAY THAT BECOMES A SPIRITUAL BODY.

THERE IS + THERE IS = 2 BODIES

1 we have borne the image of the earthy              +
1 we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.    = 2

anyway,  flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Job 11:20 But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost.

Jeremiah 15:9 She that hath borne seven languisheth: she hath given up the ghost; her sun is gone down while it was yet day: she hath been ashamed and confounded: and the residue of them will I deliver to the sword before their enemies, saith the LORD.
 

Isaiah 3:20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

Leviticus 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

 

Leviticus 21:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:

 

Numbers 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

 

Numbers 6:6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body

 

Psalm 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

 

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

One does take off the shirt because the shirt has spots and blemishes and spots and blemishes don't be in heaven, only new clean shirts.   

FLESH and BLOOD CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.  

The life of the flesh is in the blood, and remember the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

 

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil
 

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

I forget why this is so important and really don't want to go back and search out 'the why', but I would, BUT if you could just tell me again what problem this solves for you and creates for me I would sure appreciate it.