What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

On 1/25/2021 at 4:24 PM, Uber Genius said:

...

Did you happen to Click on with reference I attached about understanding the Bible and reading it to draw out its meaning rather than read into it whatever we wanted?

Shalom, Uber.

No, did you happen to read the Hebrew of Genesis 2:7?

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

On 1/25/2021 at 4:24 PM, Uber Genius said:

False analogy.

Your method is one that destroys textual meaning. 

I was once called an idiot on my school playground.

I responded, 

"An idiot is a drip, a drip is a drop, a drop is rain, rain is nature, nature is beautiful, thank you for the compliment."

This is how we take words and play games with them to misrepresent their meaning. The only difference between us is that I intended to misrepresent the actual meaning and you clearly did not.

...

Shalom, Uber Genius.

My method doesn't ALLOW "textual interference!" Nothing I have said about Genesis 2:7 is the text misrepresented. To the contrary, I don't allow one to use some form of allegorical thinking to screw it up! It's really very simple and very basic. YHWH God formed the MAN (Hebrew: haa'aadaam = "the red [man]") from the dust of the ground (haa'adaamaah = "the red [ground]")! How is that possible if "the REAL person was actually some immaterial part" that wasn't directly related to the human corpse that God formed? No, the MAN IS the BODY!

[Uber Genius]

33 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

, I don't allow one to use some form of allegorical thinking to screw it up! It's really very simple and very basic. YHWH God formed the MAN (Hebrew: haa'aadaam = "the red [man]") from the dust of the ground (haa'adaamaah = "the red [ground]")! How is that possible if "the REAL person was actually some immaterial part" that wasn't directly related to the human corpse that God formed? No, the MAN IS the BODY!

My comments do not suggest an allegory or anything close, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

You are making basic exegetically word study fallacies. 

You are taking a one-many relationship and falsely assuming it to gen a one-to-one relationship.

I showed you how to test your assumption but you didn't run the test and are:

just repeating your earlier faulty claim

just repeating your earlier faulty claim

just repeating your earlier faulty claim

Please engage the posts.

Process is gather text about nature of man

identify differing attributes of same

determine of those are essential or just incidental attributes

develop inferences (explanations) of Biblical data 

test by running inference through various passages in base data to determine if inference is coherent.

Your inference fialsmcoherence test.

Your inability to respond and ask questions or try to further understand basic exegetical approaches means you will not progress in your knowledge but will increase in your false beliefs. 

Been there in my first few years of being a Christian. Then got a mentor and started to acquire  methods.

it is clear you are not at a place where you want to acquire methods for greater understanding. That is fine, I have limited time and have much mentoring to do and much to learn from those whom mentor me. Shalom.

[Retrobyter]

On 1/25/2021 at 2:15 AM, DeighAnn said:

Does the bible state somewhere that the celestial body is not air breathing?

Shabbat shalom, DeighAnn.

Yes, in a very interesting way. Paul gave us this information in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41 (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Here's the same passage in the Greek:

Pros Korinthioi A 15:40-41 (Greek)

40 Kai soomata epourania, kai soomata epigeia; alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon. 41 Allee doxa heeliou, kai allee doxa seleenees, kai allee doxa asteroon; asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.

Translated word-by-word, one gets...

40 And bodies from-above-the-sky, and bodies from-above-the-earth; but one truly [is]-the splendor of-those from-above-the-sky, but one [is]-the splendor of-those from-ab0ve-the-earth. 41 One [is] splendor of-[the]-sun, and another [the]-splendor-of-[the]-moon, and another [the]-splendor of-[the]-stars; for star from-star differs in splendor.

Thus, Paul TOLD us that the "bodies from above the sky" were things like the "sun," the "moon," and the "stars!" Do they "breathe air?" No.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Thus, Paul TOLD us that the "bodies from above the sky" were things like the "sun," the "moon," and the "stars!" Do they "breathe air?" No.

Of course they do,  at least the sun/stars do.  Haven't you watched PBS? 
Just kidding.  What do we know? 

One thing that seems to get lost in these 'studies' is the simplicity of Christ.  We are to be like little children.  God said we have two bodies.  When one is planted the other is raised.  Are we really a 'we' without a body?  WHY go through all those steps when it is just easier to do it Gods Way. And we don't make the straight crooked.  Remember the 'wise' don't get to understand, this is why.  Used to be no one ever had all these reference books.  I think we just have so much info at our fingers that we are dissecting every word like that will lead to the Truth.  But God tells us it doesn't.  

Die, flesh goes into grave spirit goes to heaven spirit comes back from heaven some how a spiritual body shows up then, get into spiritual body, go on.  

That is just all over the place for NO reason.  What would be the point of all that extra work when you could have

One body dies, other body raises, goes to God, returns with Christ, the alive are changed  

Simplicity in Christ.  

It is so close to the 'pre trib' type of thinking. 

Christ comes, Christ goes, Christ comes back, Christ goes, Christ comes 1/2 way back, Christ goes, Christ comes back.  What is the point of coming 1/2 way back especially when doing so makes void so many verses of the Word. 


OR  
Christ comes, Christ goes, Christ comes back, Christ goes, Christ comes back. 

I just need a reason why God would give us 2 bodies and then have us body less.  Why not just skip all the info on the two bodies.  Why be mentioning them when speaking of what happens when we die?  

Where is our spiritual body when the flesh is going back to dust and the body less spirit is with the Lord?  It has to be somewhere cause once that flesh is planted......



So let's take this real slow, CAPITOL LETTERS NOT YELLING, JUST CAPITOL LETTERS FOR THE EYES. 

PLEASE, take these same verses and put your thoughts with them so I can see where we are divided, feel free to use capitol letters also
 

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE IS JUST A PARTIAL RESURRECTION AT THE DEATH OF THE FLESH?  DOES THE BODY AND SOUL STAY WHILE THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD OR THE BODY STAYS WHILE THE SPIRIT AND SOUL RETURN TO GOD?
 

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
WOULDN'T IT BE THAT IF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD WERE DELAYED SO WOULD ALSO BE THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST?
 

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
I DO NOT SEE ANY SORT OF POSSIBILITY OF DELAY.  IT SEEMS TO SAY THAT CHRIST CAN NOT RISE IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE.  IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THE DEAD COULD STAY ONCE CHRIST ROSE.  
 

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
BECAUSE THE DEAD EITHER RISE (CHRIST INCLUDED)  OR THEY DON'T.(CHRIST INCLUDED)
 

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

AND WHAT MEANING DO YOU READ THIS AS HAVING?   ARE THESE NOT THE 'ASLEEP' OF 1 THESS THAT RETURN?


And how do you account for "no man in heaven" or the 'fellowservant' John was talking to in heaven?  

Why don't you do a study on the synagogue of Satan.  That has tons of 'clues' that have to be followed all down through the ages and even into our future.  That is something that both the churches approved of by Christ knew.  The only two He approved of, if that isn't a huge clue as to something everyone should know, a huge piece of the Armor, 

seeing what is coming and all.  

[DeighAnn]

On 1/29/2021 at 3:05 PM, Uber Genius said:

My comments do not suggest an allegory or anything close, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

You are making basic exegetically word study fallacies. 

You are taking a one-many relationship and falsely assuming it to gen a one-to-one relationship.

I showed you how to test your assumption but you didn't run the test and are:

just repeating your earlier faulty claim

just repeating your earlier faulty claim

just repeating your earlier faulty claim

Please engage the posts.

Process is gather text about nature of man

identify differing attributes of same

determine of those are essential or just incidental attributes

develop inferences (explanations) of Biblical data 

test by running inference through various passages in base data to determine if inference is coherent.

Your inference fialsmcoherence test.

Your inability to respond and ask questions or try to further understand basic exegetical approaches means you will not progress in your knowledge but will increase in your false beliefs. 

Been there in my first few years of being a Christian. Then got a mentor and started to acquire  methods.

it is clear you are not at a place where you want to acquire methods for greater understanding. That is fine, I have limited time and have much mentoring to do and much to learn from those whom mentor me. Shalom.

Does this come in a 'kid or an unlearned version'?  If so, could I have it.

[Retrobyter]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Of course they do,  at least the sun/stars do.  Haven't you watched PBS? 
Just kidding.  What do we know? 

<Chuckle.> What indeed!

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

One thing that seems to get lost in these 'studies' is the simplicity of Christ.

Since "Christos" was the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach," transliterated into English as "Messiah," do you mean "the simplicity of the Messiah," where "Messiah," means "the One Anointed by YHWH God to be the King of Israel"?

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We are to be like little children.  God said we have two bodies.  When one is planted the other is raised.  Are we really a 'we' without a body?  WHY go through all those steps when it is just easier to do it Gods Way.

First, our FAITH is to be like that of little children; we should just trust God completely, like a little child would unflinchingly jump into his daddy's arms. Our knowledge and our wisdom should be growing as we age, as did Yeshua`s.

Luke 2:52 (KJV)

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Second, some today think we are planted today in the grave, and IMMEDIATELY are raised in the "body" in "Heaven." That's NOT what the Scriptures teach.

We are planted today in the grave, but we are raised in the SAME body (although transformed) when the Messiah Yeshua` comes back! What did Paul say about the process?

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 (KJV)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (brought back to life), except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

We've grown away from an agrarian society, but farming is still essential. The people to whom Paul wrote were closer to the land than we are today, and they understood that it takes TIME for a seed, once planted, to be in the ground before it germinates and bursts through the sod to become the plants that we call wheat or corn or whatever. And, at NO time during the planting did an immaterial part of the seed go off to "Heaven" until the plant poked its head out of the ground! We also are not raised the same day as we are planted.

So, while we "have" (are) 2 bodies, they don't exist at the same time (one in the ground and one in "Heaven"), and the second body is the transformed first body. Furthermore, that resurrection will not occur until the Messiah Yeshua` arrives just PRIOR TO the Millennium. That is the First (General) Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Just, or rather, of the Justified. The Resurrection of the Unjust, the Second (General) Resurrection, will occur AFTER the Millennium, just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:1-15).

That IS God's way.

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

And we don't make the straight crooked.  Remember the 'wise' don't get to understand, this is why.  Used to be no one ever had all these reference books.  I think we just have so much info at our fingers that we are dissecting every word like that will lead to the Truth.  But God tells us it doesn't.  

I think you're slightly confused by a couple of passages:

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 (KJV)

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

This passage is talking about the "wisdom OF THIS WORLD," which we today call "sophistication." Any time someone thinks they're "all that," they need to be knocked down a peg or two. And, that goes for Christians as well as non!

HOWEVER, notice here that God is NOT rejecting all wisdom! GOD'S wisdom not only surpasses man's wisdom, but He offers it to all who ask it of Him!

James 1:5 (KJV)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 

Knowledge is the acquisition of information. Wisdom is the correct way (the Godly way) to USE that knowledge.

 

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Die, flesh goes into grave spirit goes to heaven spirit comes back from heaven some how a spiritual body shows up then, get into spiritual body, go on.  

That is just all over the place for NO reason.  What would be the point of all that extra work when you could have

One body dies, other body raises, goes to God, returns with Christ, the alive are changed  

Simplicity in Christ.  

Hopefully, you think differently about this after what was written above, but here's another scenario:

"Die. Breath goes back to God who gave it. Flesh goes into grave. [WAIT.] Christ comes back. Resurrection occurs, those alive are changed, and we are transported to Israel to be with Christ."

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

It is so close to the 'pre trib' type of thinking. 

Christ comes, Christ goes, Christ comes back, Christ goes, Christ comes 1/2 way back, Christ goes, Christ comes back.  What is the point of coming 1/2 way back especially when doing so makes void so many verses of the Word. 


OR  
Christ comes, Christ goes, Christ comes back, Christ goes, Christ comes back. 

I just need a reason why God would give us 2 bodies and then have us body less.

Why not just skip all the info on the two bodies.  Why be mentioning them when speaking of what happens when we die?  

Where is our spiritual body when the flesh is going back to dust and the body less spirit is with the Lord?  It has to be somewhere cause once that flesh is planted......
 

There's a better scenario here, too!

Christ comes. (Rejected.) Christ goes. [WAIT.] Christ comes back and STAYS. (Accepted!) Christ reigns for a millennium until all enemies are subdued. Christ judges. All persons not justified by God are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Christ gives worldwide kingdom to God. Christ goes on reigning over Israel. Earth and Sky are renewed. New Jerusalem comes.

We are NEVER "left body less." We, BEING our 1st bodies, the air-breathing ("natural" or "soul-ual") bodies, are awaiting the Resurrection, totally oblivious to what's going on in the rest of the earth. When we are re-created and resurrected at the Lord's return, we are also transformed into 2nd bodies, the air-blasting ("spiritual") bodies!

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

So let's take this real slow, CAPITOL LETTERS NOT YELLING, JUST CAPITOL LETTERS FOR THE EYES. 

PLEASE, take these same verses and put your thoughts with them so I can see where we are divided, feel free to use capitol letters also
 

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE IS JUST A PARTIAL RESURRECTION AT THE DEATH OF THE FLESH?  DOES THE BODY AND SOUL STAY WHILE THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD OR THE BODY STAYS WHILE THE SPIRIT AND SOUL RETURN TO GOD?

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead (PAST), how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead (FUTURE)?

 

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
WOULDN'T IT BE THAT IF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD WERE DELAYED SO WOULD ALSO BE THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST?
 

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

IF THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A RESURRECTION (EVER), THEN THE MESSIAH WASN'T RESURRECTED IN THE PAST!

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
I DO NOT SEE ANY SORT OF POSSIBILITY OF DELAY.  IT SEEMS TO SAY THAT CHRIST CAN NOT RISE IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE.  IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THE DEAD COULD STAY ONCE CHRIST ROSE.  
 

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

IF THE MESSIAH COULDN'T HAVE RISEN IN THE PAST, THEN OUR HERALDING IS USELESS AND YOUR FAITH IS ALSO USELESS AND WE'VE BEEN SHOWN TO BE LIARS ABOUT GOD, TELLING OTHERS THAT GOD RAISED UP THE MESSIAH WHEN HE DID NOTHING OF THE SORT, IF THE DEAD CAN'T BE RESURRECTED (EVER).

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
BECAUSE THE DEAD EITHER RISE (CHRIST INCLUDED)  OR THEY DON'T.(CHRIST INCLUDED)
 

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

FOR IF THE DEAD CANNOT RISE (EVER), THEN IT'S NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE MESSIAH WAS RAISED TO LIFE (IN THE PAST)!

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

AND WHAT MEANING DO YOU READ THIS AS HAVING?   ARE THESE NOT THE 'ASLEEP' OF 1 THESS THAT RETURN?


And how do you account for "no man in heaven" or the 'fellowservant' John was talking to in heaven?  

Why don't you do a study on the synagogue of Satan.  That has tons of 'clues' that have to be followed all down through the ages and even into our future.  That is something that both the churches approved of by Christ knew.  The only two He approved of, if that isn't a huge clue as to something everyone should know, a huge piece of the Armor, 

seeing what is coming and all.  

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 

IF THE MESSIAH WASN'T RAISED TO LIFE, THEN YOUR FAITH IS USELESS, BECAUSE YOU ARE STILL IN YOUR SINS! THE DEATH OF THE MESSIAH PROVIDED THE SACRIFICE FOR SIN, BUT THE RESURRECTION ASSURED ITS TRANSFER TO YOU!

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

FURTHERMORE IF THERE'S NO RESURRECTION (FUTURE), THOSE WHO HAVE DIED IN THE MESSIAH ARE GONE FOREVER! WE HAD THE MESSIAH AND WE LOST HIM WHEN HE WAS CRUCIFIED! HE'S GONE FOREVER! IF WE CAN ONLY BELIEVE IN A DIFFERENT MESSIAH COMING (IN THE FUTURE), WE WON'T BE AROUND TO SEE IT NOR DO WE HAVE ANY HOPE IN BEING RAISED TO SEE IT!

20 But NOW IS Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man (ADAM) came death, by man (YESHUA`) came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ SHALL all BE MADE ALIVE (IN THE FUTURE). 23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits (IN THE PAST);
AFTERWARD they that are Christ's at his coming (IN THE FUTURE BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM). 24 
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power (IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE MILLENNIUM). 

25 For HE MUST REIGN (DURING THE MILLENNIUM), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM AFTER THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT WHERE THE MESSIAH PRESIDES AS JUDGE). 

Hope that helps you.

[Frits]

36 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Christ goes on reigning over Israel. 

Scripture?

Bro, who do you mean by Israel?

Psa 47:7 KJV

For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.

[Frits]

52 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

and we are transported to Israel to be with Christ.

You think one of us will be transported to the Middle East?

Again, Scripte please.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Since "Christos" was the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach," transliterated into English as "Messiah," do you mean "the simplicity of the Messiah," where "Messiah," means "the One Anointed by YHWH God to be the King of Israel"?

Doesn't matter as the important thing is the simplicity.  It isn't the letter but the spirit of the Word.  Remember it is written to little children, not wise men


 

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Hope that helps you.

No help.  There are men in heaven.  There are men on earth.  That isn't future.  That is past.  We see it different. 

I can't think of a reason for God to want us without a body.  I can't see a reason to shake the heavens if there is no one there.  I can't think of who the violent are that take it by force.  Maybe you think space is limited. 

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.  We were all there before. 

Where do you suppose  the 'fallen angels' get their bodies from?  Or the angels we entertain unawares?  Or the angels that went to Sodom and Gomorrah?  How can we be equal to the angels without a body?  It ISN'T about the verses, It's about THE BIG PICTURE.  The whole plan.  Focusing on a specific point leaves the 'plan' out of the picture.  

No, My body is going back to dust and I will never touch, see or be near that decaying carcass of corruption again.  I am going straight to God, incorruptible and hopefully immortal. 

Maybe what we believe is what will happen to us.  You will be 'air',  I will be a heavenly body spirit and soul

Why does God say He is the God of the living and not the dead? We already know all souls belong to Him so why the distinction? 

I don't know.  It seems a sad way to look at it.  My life never ends and I see no reason to be without a body when God says I have two.    


Thanks for the discussion.  It is a matter that will soon be resolved and if neither of us have 'changed' and seen the light by now we probably wont.  Only real problem is that teaching false thing.  I really don't want to be in that line come judgment day. I really don't want you to be in that line either though.  It hurts knowing  one of us will be.  It always comes down to that 'every word uttered' doesn't it?