What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:25 AM, DeighAnn said:

Let's see if we are saying the same thing, 


Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven(s) (ouranois), Hallowed be thy name.  (Where GOD dwells)

You can stop right there. We are ALREADY separated in this statement. Please, PLEASE, PLEASE! Understand that the word "ouranois" means "SKIES!" I avoid using the word "heavens" simply because of how you (and others like you) MISUNDERSTAND THE WORDS "HEAVEN" AND "HEAVENS!" The word "heaven" USED TO MEAN the "sky!" Today, it is used as YOU are trying to use it! BUT, that usage is INCORRECT!

I'm going to go back to an old reference note in an old Scofield Reference Edition (first published in 1909) of the King James Version of the Bible: On page 1238 in this Scofield Reference Bible, in the center margin, is a note: 'the first heaven is “of clouds,” the second heaven is “of stars,” and the third heaven is “God’s abode.” 

    Rev. C. I. Scofield, The Scofield Reference Bible, p. 1238.'

There's no explanation; there's no Bible references to Scriptural support of this theory. He just made this blanket statement ... and IT STUCK! Now, whenever one uses the word "Heaven," they immediately equate that to "God's abode!" Page 1238 in the Scofield Reference Bible is where 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 is found:

2 Corinthians 12:1-2 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And, it was this "third heaven" to which this note was addressed.

BUT, Peter gave us a DIFFERENT explanation for Paul's "third heaven:"

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But THE HEAVENS and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW HEAVENS and a new earth, WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Thus, Peter's explanation of the "third heaven" was ...

The first heaven was the sky before the Flood, the second heaven is the sky which is now, reserved for the Fire, and the third heaven is the sky wherein will dwell righteousness.

Scofield taught a SPATIAL counting of "three heavens"; heaven 1 (the sky) - UP - heaven 2 (space) - UP - heaven 3 (God's Abode).

Peter taught a CHRONOLOGICAL counting of "three heavens"; heaven 1 (the sky before the Flood) - LATER - heaven 2 (the current sky after the Flood and before the Fire) - LATER - heaven 3 (the future sky after the Fire).

Who do you think is more likely to be correct?

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Thus therefore pray you Father of us, who {is} in the heavens, hallowed be the name of you

Is plural   -  as God is not only in heaven but also on the earth

No, sister, the word "heaven" in the Greek (ouranois) is PLURAL! (It should have been translated as "heavens," as you show.) I believe that this is referring back to the Hebrew word "shaamayim," which was a DUAL word. It was dual because there's a daytime sky and there's a nighttime sky. THAT'S where God dwells. In the daytime, we can see the sun, the clouds, and the birds - the atmosphere is much of the time blue with the nitrogen and oxygen gases. In the nighttime, we can see BEYOND the atmosphere; we see the moon, we see the planets, we see the stars, we see the galaxies, etc. We see the UNIVERSE! ALL of that is where "God dwells!" 

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Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (ouranō)
Come the kingdom of You, be done the will of You as in heaven also upon the earth

Is singular  - to show difference  between them

The Greek word translated "heaven" here is "ouranoo," the dative form of the singular word "ouranos." That's because we're not interested in this passage about the different "skies" over the various lands; we're only interested in the ONE "sky" which was above where Yeshua` was teaching them to pray.

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Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (s) (ouranōn) and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Where God dwells)

IN THE SKIES where God dwells; not in some ethereal "Heaven!" 

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Takes a KING to have a kingdom.  So kingdom of the 'skies' is ? 

The Kingdom of the skies (or FROM the skies) is TAKEN AWAY with the King until the King returns!

Matthew 21:42-43 (KJV)

42 Jesus saith unto them,

"Did ye never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' (Psalm 118:22-23.) 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!' (Psalm 118:26.)"

Luke 19:15 (KJV)

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 

 

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What is the subject of Matthew?  The King proclaimed, highest office of man, hence the Royal bloodline.  Not to mention Mary's cousin being a full blooded Levite, making the Lord Jesus of both  - the Spectre and the Priest in one.  Lord of lord and King of kings.  

I think you mean "scepter."

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I agree that they should be translated more accurately than they are for understanding.

Wait, I am willing that the living breathing body is a part of the body/spirit/soul but not that the 'flesh' body is the soul and I think I have tried to see it from your point of view but still is an 'incomplete' truth for me when approaching it that way.  

 

 

I sure hope so.  I understand the promises of God.  I understand prophecy.  I understand the separation that brought about the Northern and Southern split.  I understand the opposition set between the birthright and the sceptre (Gods covenant with David)

 

 

I don't get this at all.  NO Heaven?

Maybe you could explain verses such as

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

And, where would that be exactly? Besides, sitting on God the Father's righthand side doesn't mean that Yeshua` is reigning right now. No, "into heaven" simply means "into the sky."

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2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This will take a while to develop, so please bear with me and hang in there:

There is no word in 2 Corinthians 12:2 that translates to the word "up." The Greek word so "translated" is harpagenta, which was "translated" as "having been caught up," and it is a form of "harpazoo":

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). 

Thus, the word harpazoo actually means "to seize," and with the endings and form, the word harpagenta actually means "having been seized." In context, 2 Corinthians 12:2 would say, "such an one having been seized to the third heaven" and with a good understanding of "heoos tritou ouranou," it means "such a person having been seized until/to a third sky."

As I said before, Peter has a MUCH better understanding of "third heaven" than did Scofield! It's not "third" spatially; it's "third" SEQUENTIALLY! As is typical with prophets, God takes them away to see visions of the FUTURE! Paul was describing a prophet (probably himself) who saw the "NEW HEAVEN and the new earth!" The "first heaven" or the "first sky" was the sky above the first earth that was destroyed in the Flood. The "second heaven" or the "second sky" is the sky that currently exists. It's been this way since the Flood and will continue until the Fire "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." Peter then went on to explain, "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW HEAVENS and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." THIS is the "third heaven" which Paul saw! And, what did John say about what he was shown?

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV)

1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN (Greek: OURANON KAINON = "a NEW SKY" in the accusative case; that is, the direct object) and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Previously, John recorded Yeshua`s words:

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.

So, where is the "tree of life?"

It's in the middle of the "paradise" of God. The word "paradise" is a TRANSLITERATION (not a translation) of the Greek word "paradeisos"; that is, it was changed letter-by-letter into a new English word.

3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); A PARK, i.e. (specially), AN EDEN (place of future happiness, "paradise")
-- paradise.

This comes from the Hebrew word, pardeec:

6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; A PARK 

-- forest, orchard.

And, where do we find this "park?"

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

"In the middle of the street of 'it'?" What is this "it" here? Where is "the throne of God and of the Lamb?" It's a continuation of the description of what John saw and recorded that is now called "Revelation chapter 21."

Revelation 21:10-27 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me THAT GREAT CITY, THE HOLY JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

THAT'S where the "PARK" is! It's IN The New Jerusalem, specifically, in the median of the street of pure gold, that runs throughout the city, where the river of the water of life flows!

What people call "Heaven" is really the NEW JERUSALEM!

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Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

The Greek of "by heaven" is "en too ouranoo" which means "in/on the sky." How big is the night sky? How much of the night sky is "God's throne?" ALL OF IT! How far can one see by gazing up into the night sky?

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Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 1:10 That IN THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him

Notice that this happens IN THE FUTURE! And, the words translated "things ... which are in heaven" here is "ta epi tois ouranois" meaning "the-things above the skies!" What "things?" How about the things in "the city from-above-the-skies," the New Jerusalem?

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OR 

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Yes, the Lord Himself (Yeshua` the Messiah) shall "descend from [the] sky" (Greek: katabeesetai ap' ouranou), just as He ascended into the sky. (Acts 1:9-11.) The dead, those who are asleep in the Messiah, shall be resurrected, and be brought with Yeshua' by God to His Land, the Land of Israel.

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Again, ALL GOES BACK [to] needing a KING for dominion so 'skies' 

We should do this next
Kingdom of heaven vs Kingdom of God 

It's not really necessary. The two terms are identical. The same events in Yeshua`s life where Matthew uses the words translated to "Kingdom of heaven" are recorded in John Mark's and Luke's accounts as "Kingdom of God." They are the same Kingdom.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Retrobyter
to get rid of the excess italics

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Thus, Peter's explanation of the "third heaven" was ...

The first heaven was the sky before the Flood, the second heaven is the sky which is now, reserved for the Fire, and the third heaven is the sky wherein will dwell righteousness.

The first heaven was before light came upon a null and void earth.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I forget, what is the difference if we call it skies or heaven?
 

 it is a place.  Gods kingdom.  

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

First heaven was before the earth.  Second heaven now.  Third heaven is new one.  

 

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The first heaven was before light came upon a null and void earth.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I forget, what is the difference if we call it skies or heaven?
 

 it is a place.  Gods kingdom.  

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

First heaven was before the earth.  Second heaven now.  Third heaven is new one.  

 

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

The quick answer is that Iyov ("Job") was not talking about the Creation; he was talking about the RE-FORMING of the earth after Noach's Flood!

First, there were NO clouds before the Flood. There was a mist that went up from the ground each morning.
Second, the foundations of the earth were broken up in the Flood. Job 38 talks about those foundations being "laid" and being "fastened." But, the first thing that happened in the Flood was "all the fountains of the great deep [were] broken up."
Third, there are definite statements that could only be about the Flood!

I'll use your quotation of GOD'S words:

Job 38:8 "Or who shut up THE SEA with doors, WHEN IT BRAKE FORTH, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 "When I MADE THE CLOUD the garment thereof, and THICK DARKNESS a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 "And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

Job 38:11 "And said, 'HITHERTO SHALT THOU COME, BUT NO FURTHER: AND HERE SHALL THY PROUD WAVES BE STAYED'?"

God made the continental shelves to reduce the "proud waves" of the seas after the Flood so they wouldn't wash over the land anymore!

God wouldn't have said this BEFORE the Flood! He WANTED and PLANNED FOR the waters to wash over the land in the Flood!

Regarding Revelation 12:7-8, yes, the SKY is a place! There was no place for them in the sky anymore; thus, they were GROUNDED! Their wings were clipped! Read on to verse 9:

Revelation 12:9-12 (KJV)

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven (in the sky),

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power (Greek: hee exousia = "the authority") of his Christ (His Messiah; His Anointed to be King): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them (birds). Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

As the 1979 movie Alien said in its promotional poster, "In space, no one can hear you scream." No sound travels in the vacuum of space. You need AIR MOLECULES to transmit sound from the speaker to the listeners!

[Retrobyter]

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thank you very much for your thoughts! 

First, in my last response to you I copied a few statements from an article that spoke to the Hebrew words - I think the last one might have caught your interest ... I don’t believe “ruwach” IS used as you mentioned but I am not saying it was or should have been used... God did NOT impart HIS Holy Spirit (HS) into Adam, But HIS Spirit. 

Shalom, Charlies744.

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm a bit at a loss, though. How does one differentiate between God's Holy Spirit and a Holy God's Spirit? I believe that you are "grasping at straws." And, I don't know why.

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

This is what separates man from the animals.. this is why the “act” of God breathing into Adam was unique and special, this is what made Adam immortal, this is what makes man “in the image of God, this is what Adam lost when he sinned.

These statements all have some troubles: First, why does the man have to be separate from the animals? ALL of God's creations are miracles!

Second, we don't KNOW that Adam was created any differently than were the animals. While it is true that His puffing into the Man He created the puff of living things, we DON'T know that this puffing wasn't done any differently for all the animals, as well! We're just TOLD of the incident with the Man.

Third, there is no immortality without (1) immortality being able to be compared to mortality, which didn't yet exist, and (2) without a long, long life to demonstrate that immortality. There's nothing there to lose.

Fourth, what Adam "lost" in the Fall was his relationship with the God who made him. He didn't lose some secret part of himself; he lost fellowship! His disobedience to a Holy and COMPLETELY SINLESS God put a wedge between them - a wedge of sin - that he could not undo or remove. God let the wedge drive them apart, because God cannot stand sin. He cannot tolerate it! God's Plan went into effect immediately! God said to the serpent,

Genesis 3:15 (KJV)

15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

And, God showed them how to make a sacrifice:

Genesis 3:21 (KJV)

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Animals had to die for Adam and his wife to be clothed. And, Adam showed his children how to sacrifice:

Genesis 4:1- (KJV)

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Pride immediately got in Qayin's (Cain's) way! Hevel ("Abel") killed a firstling of his flock of sheep and offered the fat of it. He mimicked God in the killing of an animal for the sacrifice, and God showed his sacrifice respect.

This information was passed down through Shet's ("Seth's") line until we read that Noach ("Noah") also made such a sacrifice:

Genesis 8:20-21 (KJV)

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart,

"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

 

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

The ruwach could not be breathed into Adam - the Holy Spirit IS a part of God ONLY! 

But God would make Adam in HIS image by giving him a body and a Spirit. 

I do not see anything in 2:7 that tells us we are a trichotomy... 

Nor do I; however, your dichotomy isn't quite right, either. God's Spirit, like God Himself, PERMEATES His Creation! There's no localization of God or of His Spirit!

David asked God,

Psalm 139:7-10 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

I do understand that almost everyone throws the three words around “freely”.. body, soul and spirit, and one can not or should not ignore their use and frequency in the Scriptures, but they can not (my opinion of course) contradict 2:7. 

Exactly.

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

Also, in your opinion does 2:7 have to be in agreement with 1:26-27? Is the definition of man the same as the image of God? 

Of course they have to be in agreement. However, look carefully at Genesis 1:26-27:

Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV)

26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and LET THEM HAVE DOMINION over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish (mistranslated; should be "populate" for the FIRST time) the earth, and SUBDUE IT: AND HAVE DOMINION over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

So, the "image of God, after God's likeness" was for the Man to have DOMINION over all the earth and to SUBDUE it! THAT was how the Man was likened to God and displayed His image!

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

When Jesus was about to die on the Cross what did HE say regarding this... “into your hands I commit my Spirit”. Just as Adam, Jesus would have to return HIS Spirit to God at HIS death... Adam died and his Spirit returned to God. 

Jesus’s Spirit could NOT die but HE gave it back to God before HIS death. 

This is, again, "grasping at straws." What Yeshua` was doing was "giving up His last breath." He was showing His faith in His Father by "letting go," convinced He would not be forgotten but raised from the dead in His Father's timing.

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

When Adam (us) are resurrected, God will bring back our bodies and also return that same lost Spirit to us. When Jesus was resurrected He once again had HIS body AND HIS Spirit restored within HIM. 

Not quite. When we are resurrected, God will raise us, who are bodies, back to life, and cause us to begin breathing again (BLASTING, actually). When Yeshua` was raised from the dead, He, who is His body, was brought back to life and He began to breathe again!

On 4/26/2021 at 9:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

HE has shown us exactly what will take place at our resurrection. It is ALL about being RESTORED to the Garden. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

Yes, but there's going to be a THOUSAND YEARS between the Resurrection and the Paradise ("Park; Eden") of God coming down within The New Jerusalem.

[DeighAnn]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

The quick answer is that Iyov ("Job") was not talking about the Creation; he was talking about the RE-FORMING of the earth after Noach's Flood!

First, there were NO clouds before the Flood. There was a mist that went up from the ground each morning.
Second, the foundations of the earth were broken up in the Flood. Job 38 talks about those foundations being "laid" and being "fastened." But, the first thing that happened in the Flood was "all the fountains of the great deep [were] broken up."
Third, there are definite statements that could only be about the Flood!

I'll use your quotation of GOD'S words:

Job 38:8 "Or who shut up THE SEA with doors, WHEN IT BRAKE FORTH, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 "When I MADE THE CLOUD the garment thereof, and THICK DARKNESS a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 "And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

Job 38:11 "And said, 'HITHERTO SHALT THOU COME, BUT NO FURTHER: AND HERE SHALL THY PROUD WAVES BE STAYED'?"

God made the continental shelves to reduce the "proud waves" of the seas after the Flood so they wouldn't wash over the land anymore!

God wouldn't have said this BEFORE the Flood! He WANTED and PLANNED FOR the waters to wash over the land in the Flood!

Regarding Revelation 12:7-8, yes, the SKY is a place! There was no place for them in the sky anymore; thus, they were GROUNDED! Their wings were clipped! Read on to verse 9:

Revelation 12:9-12 (KJV)

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven (in the sky),

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power (Greek: hee exousia = "the authority") of his Christ (His Messiah; His Anointed to be King): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them (birds). Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

As the 1979 movie Alien said in its promotional poster, "In space, no one can hear you scream." No sound travels in the vacuum of space. You need AIR MOLECULES to transmit sound from the speaker to the listeners!

Then please explain 

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, electlady said:

May I dare chime in?  Awesome discussion, Retrobyter.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

To me, it seems that there was no difference between when God “breathed the breath of life” into the man (The Adam) and the mankind of Genesis 1:26).  The word "breath" used in Genesis 2 :7 is in the Strong's Concordance as:

Breath
5397
HEBREW neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from OT:5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:
KJV - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
 
The word “Life” is: 

Life
2416 
HEBREW> chay (khah'-ee); from OT:2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:
KJV -  age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance,  merry, multitude,  (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

2421
HEBREW chayah (khaw-yaw'); a primitive root [compare OT:2331, OT:2421]; to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive:
KJV - keep (leave, make) alive,  certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives),  surely, be whole.

Now, the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, so it was not the Holy Spirit that God breathed into Adam.  The Holy Spirit enters us when we receive Jesus Christ.  We have an example in Luke 1:15:   

Luke 1:15 For he (John) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost(Spirit), even from his mother's womb.
 
So when was John filled with the Holy Spirit?  Answer: “even from his mother's womb.”
 
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost (Spirit):

...
It is my understanding that a human being is a soul that consists of a flesh body and a spiritual body.  And when we die, the flesh returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

~el

I certainly agree ... the “spirit” breathed into Adam was lost when he sinned. This is what we need to get back within each one of us to be as Adam was ... there is only one way we can accomplish this and that is accepting the gift of His Holy Spirit (Pentecost). 

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, electlady said:

Charlie, where does it say that the spirit breathed into Adam was lost?  Would you provide a scripture that says this?  Thanks. ~el

Unfortunately, there is no scripture that comes out to tell us this "spirit" was lost. In fact, I would feel safe in saying that most Christians do not believe anything was imparted by God into Adam other than a simple breath of air.

However, assuming you also believe God breathed His Spirit (small s) into Adam (and certainly air), this would / might be evidenced by his "cover of light". In 1:26, it tells us Adam was made in God's image. To me this means Adam has both body and spirit.... NOT the Spirit (big S) that is with God but in His image. Man not angels were created in His image and this unique makeup of mankind was superior to that of the angels in heaven - something I believe could not be accepted by satan.

So we have this man who is created in His image and having this "light surrounding cover" spending time with God in the Garden. Once Adam sinned he had to be removed from the Garden and His presence.... God can not be in the presence of sin. Prior to leaving the Garden, God would cloth them in animal skins.... they would now need an external covering - meaning they had to have lost this "light covering / spirit" after sinning. 

Prior to sin Adam had a body, could certainly breath air and this "light covering" around him.

After sin, Adam had a body, could certainly breath air but would not be covered by animal skins...... something was lost due to their sin. The "light covering" that surrounded them evidence of the "spirit" within them was no longer....

Before Adam sinned it says he was made in God's image... after sin, we are now made in the image of Adam..... 

Our goal and God's Plan of Salvation is to restore us back to our state with Him in the Garden..... meaning we need to restore His "spirit" within us... (and that gift is at Pentecost).

I apologize but I had to rush this response..... but I am sure you can ignore the errors and still understand my point...... again, perhaps only a few believe more than air was breathed into Adam -- 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

 

 

[Charlie744]

36 minutes ago, electlady said:

Let’s start with this ‘cover of light.”  Scripture?

Not going to find it.... I simply followed the creation of Adam before and after the fall and also tied it into the Cross / Resurrection, then Pentecost and then onto the end of things were we will have that spirit returned to us and once again be a living soul.

I do understand this is my opinion and was based on the above process, but I am comfortable with it...

After receiving your request for scripture I went online and found this brief article that might give you something to consider..

 

 

Hebrew words for “light” and “skin”

What did Adam and Eve wear in the Garden? We know the LORD clothed them in an animal after the Fall, but did they walk around in the nude before that? Could they have been clothed in something before that? In this blog, we’ll look at the Hebrew words for “light” and “skin” to gain insight to these questions.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

One area of Scripture that’s usually lost in translation is poetry. Let’s take Psalm 119 for example. Yes, it’s the longest chapter of Scripture, but it’s also an incredible [1]acrostic poem. David weaves each letter of the Hebrew alphabet into the stanzas of this one psalm. How incredible! Unfortunately, most audiences have no way of recognizing it in a translated text.

Another example of unseen poetry is the [2]play on words that readers miss when it comes to Adam and Eve’s clothing in the Garden. It’s found in Genesis 3:21 and Psalm 104:2.

Garments of Skin, Garments of Light

In Genesis 3:21, Moses wrote that God made Adam and Eve garments of “skin” to replace the fig leaves they had wrapped themselves with. The Hebrew word for “skin” in this verse is pronounced ore (like “this one OR that one”).

Psalm 104:2 says, “The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment.” The actual clothing of God is “light.” The Hebrew word for “light” is also pronounced ore.

אר “Ore” Strong’s 216 – light

ער “Ore” Strong’s 5785 – skin

The phonetic pronunciation of these two words are identical, yet they mean two very different things. Both words are spelled with a silent first letter (the aleph for “light” and the aiyin for “skin) followed by the resh.

Exchanging the nature of light

Many rabbis believe that Adam and Eve, being made in the image of God, went from being clothed in ore (light) to being clothed in ore (skin). Upon sinning they exchanged a nature of light for a nature of flesh. See the wonderful play on words?

Genesis 3:7 says, “The eyes of [Adam and Eve] were opened, and they knew that they were naked.” The Hebrew word for “knew” in this verse is yada. It means “to learn, to perceive, to have knowledge of.” Many rabbis interpret that this verse is saying Adam and Eve yada (learned) that they had just become naked, whereas they had beforehand been clothed in “light.”

REFLECTING

Boiling down to the main point, Adam and Eve being clothed in “light” and “skin” has deeper meanings that just what they wore. It points to the spiritual side as well.

Man, like God, was wrapped in light before the Fall. But, when sin entered the world, darkness followed and light was exchanged for skin/flesh, a nature opposite of God who is spirit (John 4:24).

Children of flesh

By the sin of the first Adam we are naturally born as children of “flesh.” But through the death of the second Adam (Yeshua), we have the opportunity to be reborn as children of “light” (1 Thess. 5:5).

Yeshua, the Light of the World, calls you and I to become the light of the world (Matthew 5:14). We do this by putting off our old self and putting on our new self (Eph. 4:22-24).

[DeighAnn]

Here are somethings to ponder upon

ELOHIM - God as our creator, we as His creations.  

Jesus not yet born in the flesh so still 'the Word', no image.  

Does God have an image?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So while the earth was yet being made, the host of heaven was with God.  So when God said

Let US,  God, the living Word and Holy Spirit 

make man in OUR image 

 WHO would be the OUR He was speaking to?  

ALSO

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Did God have 'an image' before Christ was born?  IDK

If we were all made in His image (thinking mirror here) wouldn't we all look the exact same?  


My point being if God is speaking to His creation (Elohim) then would the 'in our image' be the image they possessed then, the image we possess now, the image we will possess in the future?  (how else would the rich man have known lazarus?)

Just some thoughts I've thought about...

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Here are somethings to ponder upon

ELOHIM - God as our creator, we as His creations.  

Jesus not yet born in the flesh so still 'the Word', no image.  

Does God have an image?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So while the earth was yet being made, the host of heaven was with God.  So when God said

Let US,  God, the living Word and Holy Spirit 

make man in OUR image 

 WHO would be the OUR He was speaking to?  

ALSO

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Did God have 'an image' before Christ was born?  IDK

If we were all made in His image (thinking mirror here) wouldn't we all look the exact same?  


My point being if God is speaking to His creation (Elohim) then would the 'in our image' be the image they possessed then, the image we possess now, the image we will possess in the future?  (how else would the rich man have known lazarus?)

Just some thoughts I've thought about...

I wish I had the answers! Again, I tried to use this thought down through the scriptures - Genesis to Revelation and if it blew up (meaning this two part living being of body and spirit could not continue)... 

Here is where I have applied this formula (with the spirit given in the Garden and then lost and he had to be removed from the Garden)... Jesus was crucified - His body was indeed saw death, but His Spirit can and could not die.... On the cross He told His Father that He "committed His Spirit into His hands"... His body returned to the earth (as will happen to us when we die), and just like His Spirit returned to God so will our spirit return to God at our death. 

When Jesus was resurrected, He once again had body and Spirit and this shows us what will happen to us at our resurrection IF we accept the Holy Spirit.

 

Charlie