Is God Responsible?

[David1701]

8 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

So this is your God? Bless you, screw you? You have no choice but to be a saint and you have no choice but to be damned?

That is nothing like what I posted and it's emotionalism, not objectivity.

Since we all start out as children of wrath, by nature, God would be perfectly righteous and just to send us all to hell.

We all naturally choose sin (this is the choice we make, nobody forces us to rebel against God), in agreement with our nature, unless God has mercy upon us and makes us born again.  If he does make us born again, then, from our new, soft heart and spirit, we repent and believe in Jesus Christ willingly.

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Holy Cow,

Belief is a choice,  faith is the gift that empowers that belief. 

Romans 10: 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

Where do you see that confession and faith are the result of sinful man's "choice" in Rom. 10:9?  It is not there; you have inserted it, in your mind.

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If you confess and believe, you will be saved.

Not when you are saved, you will confess and believe

 

When you are born again, you will confess and believe, then you will be saved.  Being born again, on its own, would save no-one, since we need the whole package (redemption, forgiveness, propitiation, adoption, etc.), not merely a new heart and spirit.

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even "the sin they desire" is choice driven

No; it is desire-driven, as all choice is.  The nature determines the desires and the desires determine the choices.

[David1701]

9 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

David our discussion is over.  I have tried to reach you, and failed

and btw

blithely

ADVERB

1. in a way that shows a casual and cheerful indifference considered to be callous or improper.

I have tried to reach you with the word of God and reason.

You have tried to reach me with emotionalism and eisegesis.

It looks as if neither one of us has reached the other; but I pray that God would open your heart, just as he opened Lydia's.

[Marathoner]

On 10/21/2020 at 8:09 AM, East Sky said:

Hello everyone! First, I have an update. I have come back to Christ and chosen to serve Him as my Lord and Savior. However, I don't understand something. 

 

In Romans 9:18-19, Paul addresses the fact that God as able to do anything He pleases, and that includes showing mercy, or turning people against Him. If God is in charge of all of this, how come we are held accountable. I thought everyone had to give an account for THEIR own actions. Some might even say that God isn't fair. His Judgement is Righteous and Fair, right? But let's look at verse 19. . it basically says that we have no right to question our God. Which we don't. But this bothers me. I don't want to question God, but what about the people He has not chosen? Are they responsible? Are they on the road to Hell? 

 

This is very unsettling to think of God as unfair, for then that would make Him unperfect, and we know that God is perfect in all His Ways. But now, I'm starting to doubt that. Can someone please explain this?

 

My Prayer

Father God, I come to You in the Name of Jesus. There are many things I don't understand about You, but I know this one thing, You Love me. Well. . I'm starting to doubt that now. I have so many questions and they're not making trusting and Invisible God any easier. All I have is Your Word, and even that is starting to become unclear. If You are angry at my questions, Lord, I'm so sorry for asking them. I truly have no right to question You. I'm reminded of Job, who wanted to speak with You about his Life. You demonstrated Your Power and Amazing Glory to him. Please do the same with me, if needed. I don't want to be proud in Your Presence. And I have no right, whatsoever to bombard the throneroom with things like these. If You wish to wait or even not answer them, so be it Lord. Your Will for my life is as perfect as can be. Please, all I ask is that You help me to continue to trust You and that I may be found worthy and chosen of You. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

I hope you will return to the forum one day so you might read these words. As I wrote earlier Jesus Christ never loses a single one whom the Father gives to Him, @East Sky. Not one. The Son of God never lost me in spite of my strong conviction to the contrary. This is the nature of our suffering in this world, my friend. 

We see darkly and know only in part. The Lord endures forever and there is nothing hidden from His sight but the same cannot be said of us, we who were made a little lower than the angels. Ah, but who among the angels has the Lord granted to sit with Him upon His throne? It is as the Lord declared to the apostle Paul, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Corinthians 12:9)

This is foreseen in the 32nd chapter of Genesis when Jacob wrestled with a man and in spite of being afflicted with an infirmity by the hand of God, refused to let go until the Lord blessed him. So the Lord blessed Jacob, naming him Israel, and from that time until the end of his days Israel walked with a limp. He named the place where he wrestled with God Peniel, saying, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared." (Genesis 32:30) 

It pleased the Almighty to afflict Israel:

It is good for me that I was afflicted,
So that I may learn Your statutes.
The Law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
(Psalm 119:71-72)

You wrestle with the Lord but don't be afraid, East Sky. You aren't alone because there was a time when I wrestled with the Spirit of God, even after the Lord delivered me from the brink of death. There were so many things I couldn't understand! I couldn't grasp why the Lord did such an astonishing thing, let alone plucked me from this world, not when I had failed so miserably in my own eyes. 

These eyes which see darkly and my own understanding which is meager indeed, lost without the instruction and correction of God. How might I declare the riches of God's merciful grace? Just as Jacob wrestled with the Lord so do we... just as the Lord afflicted Israel in this world so are we afflicted in this world... and this is so we might learn that there is no other like the Most High and that nothing compares to the words of His mouth which sustain us. 

We don't live by bread alone.

God blesses us with Himself! It pleases the Lord to reveal Himself to those whom He chooses so don't fret when you struggle to understand, my friend. How can we anger the Lord when there is no other like Him? None can stand against our God and yet He keeps us in His hand, the same hand which fashioned us. I'm greatly encouraged by you.  

    

[1to3]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

faith in Jesus Christ are not offered, they are delivered; but not to everyone.

God has given All a seed of faith, what you choose to do with it is your choice.

Remember The Parable of the Sower    Matthew 13

Romans 12:3

³ For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith

 

Matthew 17:20

19Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 20“Because you have so little faith,” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

[LearningToLetGo]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

The unregenerate do not wrestle with this question of "Why have you made me this way?" The question itself is evidence of a changed person, evidence of a conscience aware of its shortfall. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Those enslaved by sin not only deny God, they deny sin or any need for any salvation.No need to besaved by a God that doesn't exist from a sin that doesn't exist. 

This is a compelling argument. Thank you.

I suppose acknowledging the fact of sin is step one, but it's a long way from this to full union with and acceptance of God's will. That's my struggle. I acknowledge my sin yet still struggle with the rest.

[JohnD]

On 10/21/2020 at 9:09 AM, East Sky said:

Hello everyone! First, I have an update. I have come back to Christ and chosen to serve Him as my Lord and Savior. However, I don't understand something. 

 

In Romans 9:18-19, Paul addresses the fact that God as able to do anything He pleases, and that includes showing mercy, or turning people against Him. If God is in charge of all of this, how come we are held accountable. I thought everyone had to give an account for THEIR own actions. Some might even say that God isn't fair. His Judgement is Righteous and Fair, right? But let's look at verse 19. . it basically says that we have no right to question our God. Which we don't. But this bothers me. I don't want to question God, but what about the people He has not chosen? Are they responsible? Are they on the road to Hell? 

 

This is very unsettling to think of God as unfair, for then that would make Him unperfect, and we know that God is perfect in all His Ways. But now, I'm starting to doubt that. Can someone please explain this?

 

My Prayer

Father God, I come to You in the Name of Jesus. There are many things I don't understand about You, but I know this one thing, You Love me. Well. . I'm starting to doubt that now. I have so many questions and they're not making trusting and Invisible God any easier. All I have is Your Word, and even that is starting to become unclear. If You are angry at my questions, Lord, I'm so sorry for asking them. I truly have no right to question You. I'm reminded of Job, who wanted to speak with You about his Life. You demonstrated Your Power and Amazing Glory to him. Please do the same with me, if needed. I don't want to be proud in Your Presence. And I have no right, whatsoever to bombard the throneroom with things like these. If You wish to wait or even not answer them, so be it Lord. Your Will for my life is as perfect as can be. Please, all I ask is that You help me to continue to trust You and that I may be found worthy and chosen of You. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

Bear in mind, the God who could have given up on humanity at any time (including in the Garden of Eden) did  not give up. In fact he became a man (John 1:14) in order to sacrifice that human life for all human sin (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2) giving all men the opportunity to believe and be saved (John 3:16-18).

He who knew no sin became the sin offering on our behalf.

That is taking responsibility in more ways than we can imagine.

Quibbling over minor details may mean a lot to you or others... but God took responsibility for his creation that fell into sin. I'd say that trumps the rest. Don't you?   

[Ray12614]

On 10/21/2020 at 10:09 AM, East Sky said:

Hello everyone! First, I have an update. I have come back to Christ and chosen to serve Him as my Lord and Savior. However, I don't understand something. 

 

In Romans 9:18-19, Paul addresses the fact that God as able to do anything He pleases, and that includes showing mercy, or turning people against Him. If God is in charge of all of this, how come we are held accountable. I thought everyone had to give an account for THEIR own actions. Some might even say that God isn't fair. His Judgement is Righteous and Fair, right? But let's look at verse 19. . it basically says that we have no right to question our God. Which we don't. But this bothers me. I don't want to question God, but what about the people He has not chosen? Are they responsible? Are they on the road to Hell? 

 

This is very unsettling to think of God as unfair, for then that would make Him unperfect, and we know that God is perfect in all His Ways. But now, I'm starting to doubt that. Can someone please explain this?

 

My Prayer

Father God, I come to You in the Name of Jesus. There are many things I don't understand about You, but I know this one thing, You Love me. Well. . I'm starting to doubt that now. I have so many questions and they're not making trusting and Invisible God any easier. All I have is Your Word, and even that is starting to become unclear. If You are angry at my questions, Lord, I'm so sorry for asking them. I truly have no right to question You. I'm reminded of Job, who wanted to speak with You about his Life. You demonstrated Your Power and Amazing Glory to him. Please do the same with me, if needed. I don't want to be proud in Your Presence. And I have no right, whatsoever to bombard the throneroom with things like these. If You wish to wait or even not answer them, so be it Lord. Your Will for my life is as perfect as can be. Please, all I ask is that You help me to continue to trust You and that I may be found worthy and chosen of You. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

Hello East Sky:

I am soooo glad that you have come back to faith in Jesus Christ. Putting aside your questions, and reading your prayer above this reply, it seems that you have a genuine faith to trust in God's love and mercy. That means that you are my brother in Christ, and we both are part of God's family with Jesus as our King and Lord.

I read most of the answers to you, and though they present differing sides of Grace and predestination, and personal choice, and other views, and I see that they did agree that they did not convince each other of their views. Which is ok. I too hold to one of their views, but, won't tell you which side I am on, because that would only spark new and fresh contention between them and me. LOL

I would only like to add that God loves you no matter what questions you may have, and since you are born-again, your heart tells you that God is Good, and that He has a love for you beyond any human attempt to describe it. The bible is clear and perfect, and you can trust it. It is worth studying because Jesus IS the Word, and He is your salvation. Without Him, we have nothing.'

After 43 years of trusting in Jesus as Lord and Savior, I can tell you that I have gone through several major tragedies, and though there are reasons 'why' they happened, I do not fully understand. That will be answered when I stand before my Master in the very near future. All I know is that God is Good and all will be explained to me someday. God will not have to apologize for anything that has happened to me, or those I love.

So, I just want to encourage you to stay true to Jesus our King, and simply serve Him with all your heart, and watch what God does in your life!  IT IS SOOO Worth It!!!!  Most of your questions will be answered over the coming years, and the ones that are not answered will seem unimportant as you get to know Jesus more and more.

I hope this helps in some small way, and look forward to meeting you someday when we all are Home with Jesus.

Grace and Peace to you my brother . . . Ray . .  

 

[David1701]

15 hours ago, 1to3 said:

God has given All a seed of faith, what you choose to do with it is your choice.

Remember The Parable of the Sower    Matthew 13

Romans 12:3

³ For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith

 

Matthew 17:20

19Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 20“Because you have so little faith,” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

The seed, in the parable of the sower, is not faith.  The seed is the word of God.

Matt. 13:18-23 (MKJV)

 18 Therefore hear the parable of the sower.
  19 When anyone hears the Word of the kingdom and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown by the wayside.
  20 But that which was sown on the stony places is this: he who hears the Word and immediately receives it with joy.
  21 But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately stumbles.
  22 And that sown into the thorns is this: he who hears the word; and the anxiety of this world, and the deceit of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
  23 But that sown on the good ground is this: "he who hears the Word and understands; who also bears fruit and produces" one truly a hundredfold; and one sixty; and one thirty. 

The only ground, in this parable, that is equivalent to having faith, is the "good ground" (the ones who hear the word, understand and bear fruit).  The other types of ground either have the word taken away from their hearts, or have no root in themselves or are unfruitful; all of which are signs of lack of faith.

Rom. 12:3 is about members of the body of Christ, not unbelievers, who, by definition, do not have faith.

Rom. 12:3-5 (ESV)

 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
  4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
  5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

The other passage you quoted, Matt. 17:19,20 is also about and to believers in Jesus Christ (his disciples, in fact).  It is not about, or to, unbelievers.

Not everyone has faith.

2 Thess. 3:2 (ESV) and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.

Edited January 17, 2021 by David1701
typo

[Riverwalker]

3 types of ground received the word.   Two of them by their choices and actions let that seed die.

[David1701]

Just now, Riverwalker said:

3 types of ground received the word.   Two of them by their choices and actions let that seed die.

You are flatly contradicting what the Bible says, with your opinions.  This is becoming a very bad habit...

Matt. 13:18-22 (MKJV)

18 Therefore hear the parable of the sower.
  19 When anyone hears the Word of the kingdom and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown by the wayside.
  20 But that which was sown on the stony places is this: he who hears the Word and immediately receives it with joy.
  21 But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately stumbles.
  22 And that sown into the thorns is this: he who hears the word; and the anxiety of this world, and the deceit of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Not one of these three shows any sign of having been born again, having repented or having faith in the Lord.

1) The first does not even understand and the devil takes the word out of his heart.

2) The second has an emotional reaction but has no root in himself (his heart is unchanged).

3) The third shows the signs of having NO faith (worldly anxiety and love of riches), so that the word produces no fruit in his life.  By their fruit you will know them.