What is the "Apostasy" mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

[Revelation Man]

On 11/16/2020 at 9:47 PM, JoeCanada said:

Here, now, is the "apostacy" in America. No, not the "rapture". This is the real "apostacy"...............the great falling away. The great falling away from God's truth!

Evangelical Christianity comprises only about 15% of the current population in the US.

That is NOT APOSTACY even as that word has become known. Apostacy means BELIVERS who become UNBELIVERS. What is happening is our kids are never coming unto God because they are being BRANWASHED in High Schools and Colleges. They can't leave God if they never come unto God. One reason many of them can't be reached is they are told the universe is 6000 years old, another reason is Santa Clause sets up THE PARENTS as people who tell little stories, so if Santa is bogus, Jesus can be a fable also. Kids think this way, and we give them the rope by making Santa the reason for the season instead of Jesus Christ.

Kids not BECOMING Christians is not the Church Leaving the Faith per se.

So all of those stats have nothing to do with Apostacy. You need RAW NUMBERS on Christians who actually deserted the faith, not their kids and other generations who never accepted their parents faith. It does not work like that brother. 

God bless brother, you are a nice guy, very intelligent, and you try very hard to espouse your belief. I respect that.

We going to by FLYING PAST THE MOON.........VERY SOON. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You bring forth other men's confusion. I don't need other men's points that are confused on the subject

Ron,

 'I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also........But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.'

 'I have been studying the bible 40 years and preaching for nigh 35, tbh I see all kind of things that make me want to pull out what little hair I have left. People take other peoples opinions and run with them, instead of putting in the grunt work themselves and allowing God to teach them. That is why I do not fall for these bogus stances.....'

Ok brother...let's be honest here.

The first quote above is from your posts in 2016. 

You say that you used to argue for the falling away, ie: the apostacy.....but then Dr Ice changed your mind, and then you started believing in a departing of the church instead of a falling away from God's Word. (Reading the blog spells this out)

Then, recently, a day or so ago...... you state that " I don't fall for these bogus stances.......people take other peoples opinions and run with them"....

It seems quite obvious that Tommy Ice changed your mind about 2 Thes 2:3. You've been studying the bible for 40 years and preaching for 35 years and then along comes Tommy and throws a wrench into all that....and you change your view.

Is Dr Ice not "other people"?

Does he hold a special place to you that you put him above all others....including the plain teaching of scriptures?

"I don't need other men's points that are confused on the subject"

Dear brother....I'm afraid that you've been hoodwinked by a mere man...... a confused man at that!

With all due respect...............

 

[Revelation Man]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Ron,

 'I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also........But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.'

 'I have been studying the bible 40 years and preaching for nigh 35, tbh I see all kind of things that make me want to pull out what little hair I have left. People take other peoples opinions and run with them, instead of putting in the grunt work themselves and allowing God to teach them. That is why I do not fall for these bogus stances.....'

Ok brother...let's be honest here.

The first quote above is from your posts in 2016. 

You say that you used to argue for the falling away, ie: the apostacy.....but then Dr Ice changed your mind, and then you started believing in a departing of the church instead of a falling away from God's Word. (Reading the blog spells this out)

Which proves just the opposite of your point. I am not STUCK to understandings like glue to a paper. When I am presented wit overwhelming evidence, I don't have this puffed up ego that says, "NO, THIS CAN'T BE TRUE BECAUSE I BELIEVE DIFFERENT" I am open to direct evidence, you are not, the REDDEEMED out of ALL NATIONS in Rev. 5:9 PROVES THIS brother. You take that evidence and just will not admit that if the REDEEMED are in Heave  BEFORE the Seals are opened, then your Rapture understanding can't be correct. WHY? Because yiu would then have to admit you are in error, and men can't do that. But I can, when presented with the facts. And by the way, I am not allowing "MEN" to persuade me, else I would go with the Apostacy line, because most "MEN" have bought into this error, I allowed a few men  with the FACTS to persuade me. The "KEY" is not men brother but FACTS. I follow the facts/truths where they lead. 

Here is the thing, the argument is IRRELEVANT to the Rapture anyway, there could be an Apostacy before the RAPTURE of the Church and BEFORE the Anti-Christ showed up, but that is not the point, the point is there is no faith being spoken about, its THE RAPTURE of the Church that is being spoken about in this instance, we know because the Thessalonians are told not to FEAR. The only reason to tell them not to fear being in the Day of the Lord God's is because the Gathering unto Christ comes first. So, it has nothing to do with the Raptures timing per se, the Rapture would still be pre 70th week, it just places a nail in the coffin of those who insist the Rapture is not pre 70th week.

21 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Then, recently, a day or so ago...... you state that " I don't fall for these bogus stances.......people take other peoples opinions and run with them"....

 

That is CORRECT, this is my problem with people who are not wise to facts, you try to present misconceptions. Every person learns from OTHER MEN in General, as well you know this, but the learning from "MEN'S TRADITIONS" which I am pointing out is different. For instance Jesus pointed unto the teachings of Daniel, Moses etc. etc. BUT he still chastised the Pharisees fir their "MEN'S TRADITIONS" so, them heeding Men over God was still a valid point, even though Jesus understood SOME MEN'S teachings were correct. That right there null and voids your whole point, and here is the thing, you already knew this before you stated it, its was just a wise remark by you, that should have been left of the reply, because it just makes no point whatsoever. The point is you do not FOLLOW THE CROWD. There is no point about not learning from each other that can be made with a straight face. You tried to be clever, and once again you ran up against the facts, and wasted my time having to reply. That is what the Pharisees kept doing to Jesus brother, trying to be cute with words. Sigh.

Seems you might want to go read Rev. 5:9 and have an internal debate as to why the Church is in heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. That has to be bugging you. 

God Bless.

 

[DeighAnn]

Everyone knows the church/body of Christ is in heaven, DON'T THEY?? 

 (well, ALL but those of the last generation who have not died yet)


And how clear God made it through Paul, explaining to us to not be sorry for those who have died,

 concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Because they are going to be returning with Christ when He returns

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

And how for this very last generation to be born in the flesh will still be alive when He does return with those who have died and gone on to be with Him

 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

And WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD if that doesn't signal a CHANGE in ages.....

 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

And the Lords Day begins 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These are words of comfort

 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


WHEN??

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

We know that for those who "don't know"

 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


BUT one thing we know for SURE,  is that THEY SHALL SAY

 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


 

And what is our HOPE FOR???  

 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


Being a child of FAITH makes us one of Gods, and Gods Wrath does not fall upon those who are His own

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And we know for sure that if our flesh be alive or dead, it doesn't change a thing

1 Thessalonians 5:10
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

What happens during the hour of temptation? 

Some will follow Satan and some will not.

What is the difference between them?
What makes one follow after Satan and what is it that keeps another from that?
 Or why is one deceived and the other one isn't?

When all the world is worshipping after Satan, what is it that keeps those who don't from ever  jumping on that wagon?  Especially when  the whole world is going on that ride?  

Is it the way they look?  Is it the way they just feel?  Is it just rebellion?  

Or is it the one thing that keeps those who do not become deceived by Satan - simply just the simple wisdom and knowledge of God, Gods Word, Jesus the Christ, Our Lord and Saviour? 

Is it as simple as "HAVING READ"?  And with that having read  the knowing what to do and what not to do what keeps you from believing/being deceived by  what your eyes and ears are seeing and hearing?   That simple wisdom and knowledge which TOLD us before hand,  "IT IS ALL A LIE".. 
we see it,  we hear it,   WE AIN'T GOING NEAR IT.  
We know exactly how this whole scene is going to play out.  

We just need to follow the two witnesses sent by God for this very purpose  We need to follow the plan.  No matter what part we have in that plan.  

Many are called and few are chosen.  Does it not seem most logical that God would have His elect, those pre ordained, those He foreknew, those He pre destined to be the ones sent before Satan for the 10 day trial? 

Time shortened because even Gods elect would be fooled by him given enough time. How much like God is he going to act?  This tells us SUPER CLOSE.

 

What does God think of the death of His saints?  How many have given their lives for the Lord already?  How many saints are under that altar?  Right now, today? 

No greater love, isn't that what we are told?  

If we are just grass like all other grass that is going to wither and die anyhow, WHY NoT give your life for God?  Seems like a no brainer.

 

For those who like me, never get enough of HIS WORDS clearing the path to His Truth.

The tribulation may make us needy indeed, possibly even poor

Psalm 72:12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

Psalm 72:13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

Psalm 72:14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: AND PRECIOUS SHALL THEIR BLOOD BE IN HIS SIGHT 

Psalm 72:15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.

 

Psalm 116:12 What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

Psalm 116:13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.

Psalm 116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.

Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

Philipians 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Philipians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Philipians 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

Philipians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Philipians 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Philipians 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

Philipians 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

Philipians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Philipians 1:30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

 

Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
 

Proverbs 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.



John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; FOR ALL THINGS that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

 

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 11/17/2020 at 12:00 AM, Revelation Man said:

Again, Rev 5:9 shows the Church is IN HEAVEN BEFORE the Seals are opened. You however want to keep debating a dead horse brother, Paul is speaking about the Church DEPARTING, I back it up with an informative blog. You bring forth other men's confusion. I don't need other men's points that are confused on the subject just like you, I only need your point of view, since it agrees with them. There is ZERO point in that whole passage where Faith is being spoken of, yet we are to believe Paul is speaking about Faith. I just SMH to be honest. 

Anyone who can't see the Rapture is Pre Trib I am suspect of as per hearing what they offer up, and I have always been. When you see this, you will see other places they venture off course. The Church RETURNS with Jesus in Rev. 19, the Church is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. The Thessalonians are told not to Fear because the Church DEPARTS BEFORE the Wrath of God, they were not told DON'T FEAR the Apostacy must happen first, and I Paul know that can't happen until you are dead. You see, Paul couldn't say that, in fact most Disciples thought and hoped Jesus would return in their lifetimes or very close to it, that is the reason Jesus spoke to them in Matt. 24 and told them they would all be killed for his names sake.

Paul did not know when the Rapture was going to happen, so he could not tell the Thessalonians not to fear, and they wouldn't go through the Wrath of God, he told them that because the Church Departs first. We are not destined for the Wrath of God. You seem to think God's Wrath is ONE DAY, you can not study the bible in depth and think that way brother. I have been studying the bible 40 years and preaching for nigh 35, tbh I see all kind of things that make me want to pull out what little hair I have left. People take other peoples opinions and run with them, instead of putting in the grunt work themselves and allowing God to teach them. That is why I do not fall for these bogus stances like the Muslim/Arab Joel Richardson books, I like Joel fine, he's a really nice guy, but I have told him, that stuff is not in the bible brother, he disagrees, but he is a very nice guy, unlike most people who are off on a tangent, he admits he could be wrong.

The bottom line is, according to biblical teaching I am correct and you are incorrect on the timing of the Rapture. And you have been proven wrong brother, you just will not admit it. The Nations of REDEEMED MEN/Peoples are seen in Rev. 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. You know it, I know it, we all know it. That's a WRAP

That would be correct brother, IF what is being TAKEN AWAY was days or daily sacrifices, but that is not what is taken away, its THE EVEBING & MORNING SACRIFICES that are being taken away, and the reference is to the NUMBER of Sacrifices being taken away. You have to look at the whole passage in order to get a good understanding of where this is heading as per the Evening and the Morning Sacrifice. The Jews paid tribute twice daily.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven(Jerusalem); and it cast down some of the host and of the stars(Jewish Saints) to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host(Jewish High Priest or THE False Prophet in this case), and by him(False Prophet/Jewish High Priest takes away Jesus Worship) the daily sacrifice(Jesus Worship/tribute to Jesus) was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days (Evening and Morning SACRIFICES); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

What is being taken away is the Evening AND Morning Sacrifice or Jesus Worship twice a day in the Temple of God. 

 

Gabriel Interprets the Dream for Daniel

Dan. 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes(Jesus); but he shall be broken without hand(Jesus SPEAKS Victory). 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

For starters, we know this is THE ANTI-CHRIST, and we know he only rules for 1260 days, so there can be no Sacrifice TAKEN WAY for 2300 days, BESIDES, we know that THE SACRIFICE (Jesu Worship) is taken away at the 1290, which is 1290 days until Jesus' Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS. So the 2300 does not fit to start with, which is why we must go line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. 

There are 2300 OBLATIONS that are taken away, just like Daniel was worshiping God/Praying/Fasting at the EVENING Oblation, which is ONE SACRIFICE. It didn't say at the Evening AND Morning, it said at the Evening Sacrifice. 

Thus the 2300 Evening and Morning Oblations (Sacrifices) mean just that, 2300 Sacrifices are taken away, not 2300 days. 

This is just not plausible. God created the Universe in 7 YOWMS, meaning Seven Time Periods. Yu do know that YOWM does not stand fir day right? It means in Hebrew a PERIOD OF TIME and then with the info you have to fill in the blank. We see YOWM referred to as Day more than any other time, of course, but it is referenced as YEAR, MONTH, INFINITE TIME, SEASONS, X MARK THE SPOT etc. etc. And in this instance, the First Day was like 9.2 billion years.

My Blog on this......on Quora

Do you believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old or 600 years old?

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in Strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from Gods POV, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.

So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the Fifth day God created the Sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 Million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven(SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).

[Diaste]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

Seems you might want to go read Rev. 5:9 and have an internal debate as to why the Church is in heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. That has to be bugging you. 

New International Version
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

New Living Translation
And they sang a new song with these words: “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

English Standard Version
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Berean Study Bible
And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Berean Literal Bible
And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain, and You purchased to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

New American Standard Bible
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

So no, the elders are lauding the finished work of Jesus regarding redemption and salvation. They are not saying the church is in heaven; the elders are iterating what has been done and the results; namely that the price has been paid.

It has nothing to do with 'being forcibly abducted from one place and taken to another'.

 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

This reminds me of a Fleetwood Mac song called..........

 

Over My Head

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This reminds me of a Fleetwood Mac song called..........

 

Over My Head

 

"Not worth debating" is not equivalent to "not understanding".

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Not worth debating" is not equivalent to "not understanding".

Good excuse. 

[DeighAnn]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection





When do the servants receive rewards?


Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,


and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;



and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.





 

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Joel 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Joel 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.