Great tribulation

[Guest kingdombrat]

I am fascinated how we are all Created equally in the Image of God and can read the same passage of Scripture and end up with multiple translations.  I am pretty certain if we took every answer from everyone's viewpoint we would find the absolute truth.   These forums are beautiful!

[JoeCanada]

50 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

I am fascinated how we are all Created equally in the Image of God and can read the same passage of Scripture and end up with multiple translations.  I am pretty certain if we took every answer from everyone's viewpoint we would find the absolute truth.   These forums are beautiful!

Hi kingdombrat,

I totally agree.

I think that the biggest problem in having all these "multiple translations" stems from them being "our rendering" of what scripture says......instead of "what scripture says". 

And scripture tells us in 2Peter 1:20 that "no scripture is of private interpretation".

Scripture interprets scripture!

Somewhere....somehow.... the interpretation is in scripture. 

But some people say that "God told them"......... or that " The Holy Spirit taught them this", and yet the teachings contradicts what scripture plainly says.

But I agree with you.....These forums are beautiful!

[OneLight]

37 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi kingdombrat,

I totally agree.

I think that the biggest problem in having all these "multiple translations" stems from them being "our rendering" of what scripture says......instead of "what scripture says". 

And scripture tells us in 2Peter 1:20 that "no scripture is of private interpretation".

Scripture interprets scripture!

Somewhere....somehow.... the interpretation is in scripture. 

But some people say that "God told them"......... or that " The Holy Spirit taught them this", and yet the teachings contradicts what scripture plainly says.

But I agree with you.....These forums are beautiful!

2 Peter 1:20 states:

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation."

You left out the word prophecy.  By doing so, your words indicate that no scripture can be interpreted by any one person.  This may be one of the reasons why so many have different ideas of what scripture is saying as some is left out.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

And all of them being written about within the context of the Revelation having been written by, to, and about Christians, not Jews.

John the Revelator was a Jew of the nation of Israel. In fact the one who gave John the Revelation was a Nazarene. 

But you are correct, they aren't Jews, they are Israelites from each of the 12 tribes. Now are they born again of the Spirit in Christ? Sure.

But because that is true does not diminish the fact they are from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. One fact doesn't outweigh or cancel the other. 

If a man is married and has children he is a father and a husband. So the 144,000 are christian and Israelites. 

[Alive]

10 hours ago, OneLight said:

2 Peter 1:20 states:

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation."

You left out the word prophecy.  By doing so, your words indicate that no scripture can be interpreted by any one person.  This may be one of the reasons why so many have different ideas of what scripture is saying as some is left out.

I would just interject that the word translated 'prophecy' carries a varied meaning and not just a foretelling, but also a forth telling. Admonition, instruction, etc. Something that comes from divine inspiration.

4394. προφητεία; profēteia, profēteias, hē (profēteuō, which see), Hebrew nĕbûʾâ, prophecy, i.e. discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events. Used in the N.T. — of the utterances of the O.T. prophets: Matt. 13:14; 2 Pet. 1:20,21

[OneLight]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

2 Peter 1:20 states:

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation."

You left out the word prophecy.  By doing so, your words indicate that no scripture can be interpreted by any one person.  This may be one of the reasons why so many have different ideas of what scripture is saying as some is left out.

 

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I would just interject that the word translated 'prophecy' carries a varied meaning and not just a foretelling, but also a forth telling. Admonition, instruction, etc. Something that comes from divine inspiration.

4394. προφητεία; profēteia, profēteias, hē (profēteuō, which see), Hebrew nĕbûʾâ, prophecy, i.e. discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events. Used in the N.T. — of the utterances of the O.T. prophets: Matt. 13:14; 2 Pet. 1:20,21

Yes, it does.  The Complete Word Study Dictionary states the following:

4394. προφητεία; prophēteia: gen. prophēteias, fem. noun from prophēteuō (4395), to prophesy.  A prophesying or prophesy.

1. Particularly prediction, the foretelling of future events, including the declarations, exhortations, and warnings uttered by the prophets while acting under divine influence; of the prophecies of the OT (Matt. 13:14; 2 Peter 1:20, 21); the revelations and warnings of the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19, equal to marituria (3141), witness, as in Rev. 19:10.

It all depends on where it is being used and in which context it is used.  In this case, it is speaking of the prophesies spoken, not just every scripture.

[JoeCanada]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

2 Peter 1:20 states:

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation."

You left out the word prophecy.  By doing so, your words indicate that no scripture can be interpreted by any one person.  This may be one of the reasons why so many have different ideas of what scripture is saying as some is left out.

Hi OneLight,

(Me)....And scripture tells us in 2Peter 1:20 that "no scripture is of private interpretation".

(You)...."knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation."

Ya, good catch. It's what I intended to write, but...........

[kenny2212]

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: "Tribulation is only tribulation before God steps in. When God steps in it becomes God's wrath."

 I'm sorry but tribulation and wrath are two different things altogether.  Tribulation is "affliction" or "persecution ", while wrath is God's "vengeance " or "punishment " on the unsaved at the last day.

I'm not comparing tribulation and God's wrath. What I'm saying is that the object of each is different.

Tribulation predominantly is directed towards believers, while God's wrath is towards unbelievers. The instance of the Israelites in Egypt is a good example of tribulation and God's wrath.

Thanks for reading. God bless you.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

 If the 144,000 in question were also converts to Christ then it is not their bloodline nor their geo-political national status to which the text is speaking. 

It's not? 

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:"

Then the text goes on to list those tribes. So you're saying there is no way one can be a convert to Christ and be from a tribe of Israel? So a conversion abrogates nationality, a people or a language and removes any other such identification?

So then this must be wrong as well:

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

Seems as though there remains some importance regarding origins in the narrative. I'm not saying it sticks as all are one in Christ; but origins and lineage are a factor that cannot be ignored in light of the text.

 

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

The eschatology asserted is they are Jews, not Christians, and not Jewish converts to Christ. What was stated is incorrect, especially in light of the premise the Jews will be persecuted and all but 144,000 Jews are preserved. As I noted in the beginning this isn't just exegetically correct; it's a particularly anti-Semitic eschatology. Something I didn't note earlier but warrants mention: it's also a works-based soteriology that contradicts centuries of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. 

I don't care too much what others assert; arguments are like noses; everybody has one. No one can, or should, categorically state they know and understand the role of the 144,000 past what the scripture says about them. Gleaning only the fact from scripture the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel{could be, but not necessarily, Jews}, they are the firstfruits to the Lord and apparently are all male virgins, etc.

 

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

What was stated is incorrect, especially in light of the premise the Jews will be persecuted and all but 144,000 Jews are preserved.

Yeah. I agree. The above is an oddity. Prejudice exists and probably always will.

[DeighAnn]

ONLY FOR THOSE WHO  MIGHT BE A LITTLE LOST.


Leviticus 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;

Leviticus 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

Leviticus 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Leviticus 26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

Leviticus 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Leviticus 26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.

Leviticus 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Leviticus 26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

SUMMARY - IF NOT OBEYED THEN REMOVED FROM THE LAND AND SCATTERED AMONGST THE HEATHEN 





2Kings 17:5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.

2Kings 17:6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.

2Kings 17:7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods,

2Kings 17:8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.

2Kings 17:9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city.

2Kings 17:10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:

2Kings 17:11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger:

2Kings 17:12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2Kings 17:13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.

2Kings 17:14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God.

2Kings 17:15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them.

2Kings 17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.

2Kings 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

2Kings 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

 

2Kings 18:11 And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:

2Kings 18:12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

SUMMARY - DIDN'T OBEY, REMOVED FROM THE LAND AND SCATTERED AMONGST THE HEATHEN.  

JESUS WILL REFER TO THEM AS THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL OR THE SCATTERED SHEEP

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



AROUND 740 BC

1Chronicles 5:22 For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.

1Chronicles 5:23 And the children of the half tribe of Manasseh dwelt in the land: they increased from Bashan unto Baalhermon and Senir, and unto mount Hermon.

1Chronicles 5:24 And these were the heads of the house of their fathers, even Epher, and Ishi, and Eliel, and Azriel, and Jeremiah, and Hodaviah, and Jahdiel, mighty men of valour, famous men, and heads of the house of their fathers.

1Chronicles 5:25 And they transgressed against the God of their fathers, and went a whoring after the gods of the people of the land, whom God destroyed before them.

1Chronicles 5:26 And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

 

 722 BC
 

2Chronicles 15:8 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from mount Ephraim, and renewed the altar of the LORD, that was before the porch of the LORD.

2Chronicles 15:9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the strangers with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the LORD his God was with him.



 

2Chronicles 30:1 And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel.

2Chronicles 30:2 For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the congregation in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month.

2Chronicles 30:3 For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves sufficiently, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem.

2Chronicles 30:4 And the thing pleased the king and all the congregation.

2Chronicles 30:5 So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written.

2Chronicles 30:6 So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.

2Chronicles 30:7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.

2Chronicles 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

2Chronicles 30:9 For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.

2Chronicles 30:10 So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.

2Chronicles 30:11 Nevertheless divers of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.

2Chronicles 30:12 Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD.

2Chronicles 30:13 And there assembled at Jerusalem much people to keep the feast of unleavened bread in the second month, a very great congregation.

2Chronicles 30:14 And they arose and took away the altars that were in Jerusalem, and all the altars for incense took they away, and cast them into the brook Kidron.

2Chronicles 30:15 Then they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the second month: and the priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought in the burnt offerings into the house of the LORD.

2Chronicles 30:16 And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.

2Chronicles 30:17 For there were many in the congregation that were not sanctified: therefore the Levites had the charge of the killing of the passovers for every one that was not clean, to sanctify them unto the LORD.

2Chronicles 30:18 For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

2Chronicles 30:19 That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

2Chronicles 30:20 And the LORD hearkened to Hezekiah, and healed the people.

2Chronicles 30:21 And the children of Israel that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing with loud instruments unto the LORD.

2Chronicles 30:22 And Hezekiah spake comfortably unto all the Levites that taught the good knowledge of the LORD: and they did eat throughout the feast seven days, offering peace offerings, and making confession to the LORD God of their fathers.

2Chronicles 30:23 And the whole assembly took counsel to keep other seven days: and they kept other seven days with gladness.

2Chronicles 30:24 For Hezekiah king of Judah did give to the congregation a thousand bullocks and seven thousand sheep; and the princes gave to the congregation a thousand bullocks and ten thousand sheep: and a great number of priests sanctified themselves.

2Chronicles 30:25 And all the congregation of Judah, with the priests and the Levites, and all the congregation that came out of Israel, and the strangers that came out of the land of Israel, and that dwelt in Judah, rejoiced.

2Chronicles 30:26 So there was great joy in Jerusalem: for since the time of Solomon the son of David king of Israel there was not the like in Jerusalem.

2Chronicles 30:27 Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven.


 

2Samuel 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

2Samuel 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

 

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isaiah 41:9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 



 "PRE'S" PAUSE
Amos 9:10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

 

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jeremiah 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR

SUMMARY - HOUSE OF ISRAEL (PEOPLES 10 DIFFERENT TRIBES) NEVER WENT BACK TO THEIR LANDS IN ISRAEL (LAND) .  THEY WERE SCATTERED OUT AMONGST THE HEATHEN AND WENT OUT TO POPULATE THE REST OF THE WORLD.  

SO WE HAVE 500 OR SO YEARS OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL POPULATING THE REST OF THE WORLD WHILE THE ROMAN EMPIRE "RULES THE WORLD".  LOOK AT ANY MAP OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE AND WHAT IS IT COMPRISED OF? 

SINCE GOD DIDN'T SCATTER THEM WE CAN SAFELY CONCLUDE THAT MOST OF THE WORLD THAT WASN'T ROMAN WOULD BE THE PARTS THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL WENT OUT TO SETTLE.  

OF ALL THE LANDS THAT AREN'T A PART OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, ARE THERE ANY THAT WE KNOW OF THAT CALL THEMSELVES "CHRISTIAN"?  ANY NATIONS THAT BELIEVE IN THE LORD?  ANY NATIONS UNDER GOD?  

ISN'T IT QUITE CLEAR AND IN YOUR FACE THAT ABRAHAMS SEED 
(SAND DUST AND STARS) WHO "DON'T REMEMBER" WHERE THEY COME FROM 
WHO THEY ARE AND ARE THE SCATTERED SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL?  THOSE WHO BELIEVE THEY ARE "GENTILE/ETHNOS/NATIONS" HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER THEY ARE GENTILE OR SHEEP.  SO THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE FOR THE CHURCH TO BE "COMPRISED" OF....  

STATISTICLY SPEAKING THE CHANCES OF BEING ONE OF THE LOST SHEEP AS OPPOSED TO THE ETHNOS IS ????  high.  God blesses and you can bet it sticks.  

IN CONCLUSION THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES "GENTILE CHURCH" ARE REALLY "LOST SHEEP COME TO CHRIST CHURCH".  

AND SINCE GOD NEVER CAST THEM AWAY, THEY HAVE NO AGE.  


AND WHY DO WE ALL GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION???

Ezekiel 36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezekiel 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

Ezekiel 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

Ezekiel 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

Ezekiel 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.


FOR WHOS SAKE?

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for Mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.



 

Ezekiel 36:23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.