Great tribulation

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Well, of course they will! Hallucinations can be VERY powerful and VERY realistic!

Is this the ostrich syndrome  - head buried in the sand? There were doubters in the days of Paul, just as there are now. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Very nice. 

"After this I saw..."

The 6th seal can be the only immediately preceding event.

"After this I looked and saw..."

The immediately preceding event is the sealing of the 144,000.

So...6th seal, sealing, great multitude...in that order. And apparently near in time to each other as well in an unbroken narrative; concurrent, I say.

 

God chose not to show John the rapture. You can take that up with Him. However, He did show John the church in heaven AFTER the rapture.  Some people choose Rev. 4:1 as the rapture. I don't. 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God chose not to show John the rapture. You can take that up with Him. However, He did show John the church in heaven AFTER the rapture.  Some people choose Rev. 4:1 as the rapture. I don't. 

That's good. No gathering is pictured in Revelation; only the result and the timing. 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's good. No gathering is pictured in Revelation; only the result and the timing. 

Finally: one of your posts that agrees with scripture 100%. Great. And points both you and I agree on.

[WilliamL]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:33 PM, iamlamad said:

Read more closely. "hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Because they are sinners, they imagine God is seeing them in their sin. They imagine - and rightly so - that both God the Father and the Son have wrath towards them. After all, it is the start of the DAY of His wrath. These words do not tell us that they SEE God's face.

You don't hide from a face that  you don't see. You hide from a stern face that you see is seeing you, and you know you are spiritually naked, because 'the thoughts of every heart are revealed.' Jesus is revealed, the Father is revealed, and every soul is revealed. That is why the evil-hearted hide, and the pure-hearted rejoice and go toward the light.

On 12/27/2020 at 3:33 PM, iamlamad said:

It is without any doubt that "every eye will see Him" when He comes in power as shown in Rev. 19. There is nothing to even hint that every eye shall see Him at the rapture.

Paul tells us that the Rapture comes at the Parousia (1 Thes. 4:15ff.) and the resurrection of the dead. 1 Thes. 4:14; 1 Cor. 15:21-23 Jesus told His disciples in the Olivet discourse that the Parousia comes (24:27) when "all the tribes of the earth...will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven...to gather together His elect..." They "see" Him, which is exactly what takes place in Rev. 6:16, when the Rapture takes place.

Paul's and Jesus' clear testimony about the events of the Parousia are well more that a "hint."

[WilliamL]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:44 PM, iamlamad said:

THEN.....AFTER THESE THINGS......I looked and a great multitude (appeared) in heaven. Hold your horses! Whoa - back!  When John saw this great crowd, they were already there in heaven: John did not inform us as to the exact moment they arrived.

On the contrary: "these are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation." 7:14 That marks the time.

[iamlamad]

36 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

On the contrary: "these are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation." 7:14 That marks the time.

Exactly: in the Greek is is present tense. They were coming out one by one from the GT of a Christian life on earth, with the tribulations Paul told us we would have. John was not told how then suddenly got from earth to heaven, but rather how each one was born again and came out of being the walking dead on earth. And that is truly who they were: the saved from the church age. They were not all born again at the same tiem; but each one got born again when they accepted Jesus. 

[WilliamL]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

They were coming out one by one from the GT of a Christian life on earth, with the tribulations Paul told us we would have.

Hardly. The "Great Tribulation" they are to come out of en masse is the one Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:21.

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You don't hide from a face that  you don't see. You hide from a stern face that you see is seeing you, and you know you are spiritually naked, because 'the thoughts of every heart are revealed.' Jesus is revealed, the Father is revealed, and every soul is revealed. That is why the evil-hearted hide, and the pure-hearted rejoice and go toward the light.

Paul tells us that the Rapture comes at the Parousia (1 Thes. 4:15ff.) and the resurrection of the dead. 1 Thes. 4:14; 1 Cor. 15:21-23 Jesus told His disciples in the Olivet discourse that the Parousia comes (24:27) when "all the tribes of the earth...will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven...to gather together His elect..." They "see" Him, which is exactly what takes place in Rev. 6:16, when the Rapture takes place.

Paul's and Jesus' clear testimony about the events of the Parousia are well more that a "hint."

How many times have you seen the Father from your place on earth? I have never seen Him nor have I ever met anyone. Jesus may only be revealed to those who are caught up to Him. I cannot find Paul telling us that Jesus will be visible to the world at His coming for His church. What we do read is He is hidden in a cloud. 
1. He comes
2. The trumpet sounds and the angel shouts
3. The dead in Christ are caught up
4. Those alive and in Christ are caught up
5. TIME goes from church age to the Day of the Lord.
6. The Bride will be escorted to heaven. 

Now, in this scenario given by Paul, is there any hint at all that the world will see Jesus or the Father? 

The truth is, they saw the signs in the sun and moon and knew that THE DAY had started, and they knew that the day was all about the wrath of God. They did not need to see His face. Therefore I disagree. I don't think the world will see God at the start of the Day of the Lord. I cannot find any scripture anywhere proving it.

 

As for the Parousia, Paul speaks of one and Jesus speaks of another one: there will be TWO MORE TIMES Jesus comes: First FOR His saints, then 7 years later WITH His saints. Trying to force all coming scriptures into one coming simply does not work. 

Next, people have been trying since the gospels were written to make the gathering in Matthew 24 equal the rapture in 1 Thes. It has never worked and won't work, because they are two different gatherings coming at two different times and for two different groups of people. 

They "see" Him, which is exactly what takes place in Rev. 6:16, when the Rapture takes place. 

Finally, I believe the rapture will come BEFORE any part of the 6th seal events. 

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, WilliamL said:

Hardly. The "Great Tribulation" they are to come out of en masse is the one Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:21.

No, simply human imagination. John has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half of the week. 

How do you miss all the clues? 

The days of GT Jesus spoke of, come in the second half of the week.
John shows us what will CAUSE those days of GT: the image and the Mark.
The image and mark will be created by the Beast and False Prophet.
They do not even show up in Revelation until chapter 13, after the midpoint.
God sends a warning not to take the mark, in chapter 14, so GT has not yet started.
Finally in chapter 15, we see the beheaded begin to show up from the days of GT.