Let's get down to it, the Nitty Gritty

[irishcowboy]

every day is the sabbath... treated as such.... should we only pick one day of the week to keep holy? should we only spend time with the Lord one day a week?

as Christ said, was the sabbath made for man or man for the sabbath?

if I hold every day holy, for God created each and every day, then I will be able to stay focused on Him more and more everyday. drawing closer..

why be so legalistic, why not enjoy everyday with the Lord, not just one day out of obligation and duty...

mike

[Guest yod]

I'm going to start showing the differences between hellenism and hebraic thought with your post if you don't mind.

This is not to say that either is "better" but rather only to point out that they are different.

In Greek, the word for Greece is "Hella

The Greek (or Hellenistic period) was the first time that the world had been completely conquored. Alexander the Great saw it as his life mission to spread Greek philosophy, language, and education over the entire planet.

This is why the first biblical manuscripts were in Greek...so everyone could read them. The Messiah and His disciples appeared in a world that was greatly influenced by the philosophies of Plato & Socrates. The Greek gods were widely known and respected, even by the Romans. Even in Israel many jews were hellenistic...desiring to throw off the God of their fathers in order to be "modern" and "sophisticated"

This is exactly what caused the rise of the Pharisees who wanted to ensure that the God of Israel was not forgotten or lost in a modern world.

THe most simplistic definition of hellenistic vs hebraic is that hellenism sees man as the center of the universe. We (man) are the very purpose of Creation!

Hebraic thought sees God as the center. He created the universe and all it contains for His purpose. He has no debt to please us at all.

The hellenistic mindframe sees the Sabbath (and other commandments) as burdensome or legalistic because it imposes on our self-will. No one is going to tell us what to do or when to do it! God has given us His Holy Spirit and therefore we have authority to be elohim (judges) on the earth. After all, the earth was created for our pleasure

The hebraic mindframe sees the Sabbath (and other commandments) in terms of obedience being a sign of true faith. God gets what God wants and it doesn't matter whether we like it or not. He has ultimately given us the law for our good and we will seek His will in doing it because He alone sees the big picture and who are we to counsel Him?

So even a passage like "The Sabbath is made for man" has an almost 180 degree opposite meaning from the hellenistic interpretation to the hebraic and that is why I say that we are talking past each other without understanding what the other is saying.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the differences we are having in this one conversation.

[Trust & Obey]

Because Christ is my Passover; He is my Sabbath.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hear! Hear!

[Guest Zayit]

1.every day is the sabbath... treated as such.... 2. should we only pick one day of the week to keep holy?

[ayin jade]

Rom 14:1 And receive him who is weak in the faith, but not to judgments of your thoughts.

Rom 14:2 For indeed one believes to eat all things; but being weak, another eats vegetables.

Rom 14:3 Do not let him who eats despise him who does not eat; and do not let him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.

Rom 14:4 Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He who regards the day regards it to the Lord; and he not regarding the day, does not regard it to the Lord. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, does not eat to the Lord, and gives God thanks.

Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.

Rom 14:8 For both if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore both if we live, and if we die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For this Christ both died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God.

Rom 14:13 Then let us not judge one another any more, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward his brother.

Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing by itself is common; except to him who esteems anything to be common, it is common.

Rom 14:15 But if your brother is grieved with your food, you no longer walk according to love. Do not with your food destroy him for whom Christ died.

Rom 14:16 Then do not let your good be spoken evil of,

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Rom 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is well-pleasing to God, and approved by men.

Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue the things of peace, and the things for building up one another.

Rom 14:20 Do not undo the work of God for food. Truly, all things indeed are clean, but it is bad to the man eating because of a stumbling-block.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Rom 14:23 But, the one doubting, if he eats, he has been condemned, because it is not of faith; and all that is not of faith is sin.

[CarolineS]

If we are going to look at Romans 14, let us consider the first verse which sets the tone of Paul's discussion.

"Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things." Romans 14:1.

This seems to indicate that the discussion focuses on "doubtful disputations" or disputes on doubtful matters. Is the seventh-day Sabbath set apart by God at creation placed within the heart of the moral law a doubful matter?

Also it is important to carefully notice what a Bible text does not say as well as what it does say. Verses 5 and 6 say nothing about either worship or the Sabbath.

They simply talk about regarding a day. To say this particular day is the Sabbath is an unwarranted assumption.

"He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." Romans 14:6

Doesn't this verse indicate Paul was talking about fasting on certain days? It talks about observing a day and eating and not eating. I believe that Jewish Christians did fast on certain days and felt some days were better for fasting than others. They began to bicker and judge each other over which day they were to fast. Paul is simply pointing out that to fast or not to fast on a certain day is a matter of individual conscience, not a matter of God's command.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[CarolineS]

OK, I just have one more comment about the Sabbath. Like someone has stated this has been discussed numerous times in numerous threads.

If we are going to be followers of Christ, then we should follow the example He gave us. He kept the Sabbath while He was here on earth, even in death.

Also, when the new heavens and the new earth are established we will all keep the Sabbath. (Isaiah 66:22,23)

The issue is more that a matter of days. It is a matter of masters. We ought to obey God rather than men. To worship on the seventh day is to accept the authority of our creator Lord, who commanded the day be kept. To knowingly accept a counterfeit day of worship is to accept an institution initiated and extablished solely by man through an apostate religion.

The real question is, then, whose servants are we--God's or man's? The world's birthday is the Bible Sabbath, the seventh day. It is a memorial to our loving Creator. No other day will do.

So, why follow the ways of the world when you can follow Jesus? I don't want to live like the world, do you?

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Mikeyjay]

That you don't want to keep the true Sabbath?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i celebrate Sunday as my Sabath because i celebrate the ressurection of Jesus and what it means for my salvation!!!

[other one]

I'm going to start showing the differences between Hellenism and Hebraic thought with your post if you don't mind.

This is not to say that either is "better" but rather only to point out that they are different.

In Greek, the word for Greece is "Hell

The Greek (or Hellenistic period) was the first time that the world had been completely conquered. Alexander the Great saw it as his life mission to spread Greek philosophy, language, and education over the entire planet.

This is why the first biblical manuscripts were in Greek...so everyone could read them. The Messiah and His disciples appeared in a world that was greatly influenced by the philosophies of Plato & Socrates. The Greek gods were widely known and respected, even by the Romans. Even in Israel many Jews were hellenistic...desiring to throw off the God of their fathers in order to be "modern" and "sophisticated"

This is exactly what caused the rise of the Pharisees who wanted to ensure that the God of Israel was not forgotten or lost in a modern world.

The most simplistic definition of Hellenistic vs Hebraic is that Hellenism sees man as the center of the universe. We (man) are the very purpose of Creation!

Hebraic thought sees God as the center. He created the universe and all it contains for His purpose. He has no debt to please us at all.

The Hellenistic mind frame sees the Sabbath (and other commandments) as burdensome or legalistic because it imposes on our self-will. No one is going to tell us what to do or when to do it! God has given us His Holy Spirit and therefore we have authority to be elohim (judges) on the earth. After all, the earth was created for our pleasure

The hebraic mindframe sees the Sabbath (and other commandments) in terms of obedience being a sign of true faith. God gets what God wants and it doesn't matter whether we like it or not. He has ultimately given us the law for our good and we will seek His will in doing it because He alone sees the big picture and who are we to counsel Him?

So even a passage like "The Sabbath is made for man" has an almost 180 degree opposite meaning from the hellenistic interpretation to the hebraic and that is why I say that we are talking past each other without understanding what the other is saying.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the differences we are having in this one conversation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yod, I understand what you are saying, and I personally don't follow the Hellenistic view of things. I truly believe with all my heart that Jesus changed things when he came. If we are still under the law of the Sabbath and when the Pharisees accused Him of working on the Sabbath, then why did Jesus not correct them by telling them what He was doing was not work. Instead he told them that both He and The Father were still working.

If we were still expected to keep the letter of the Sabbath then why did he not do so Himself. I truly do not understand why this conversation is so totally apart between the two groups of people here. It seems to me like the people who are Jewish or wish to be so are still wanting to be under the Law and the New Testament tells us that it is of no help in attaining salvation. I simply do not understand and the more we post the more I don't understand. And remember that I agree with you that God gets what God wants and it doesn't matter whether we like it or not. The difference between us is that we have a difference of opinion of what God wants. You are still working with the things that Jehovah Elohiym wanted with the old covenant and I am working with what Jesus wanted with the new, and remember from discussions from the Trinity threads that I believe that Jesus was/is Jehovah Elohiym. That is what I see as we go through this discussion.....

Might I add that I hope this is really a discussion.. I am only trying to explain why I believe what I do, and really hope that all understands that it is very ok if you disagree. But we can carry on the discussion for I have been taught by the up bringing of the CoC to keep an open mind to possibly being wrong in doctrine. I've had a really good lessons in wrong doctrine and have spent many years in developing what I believe from the word, for it is not a simple thing to have a belief that agrees with all scripture.

[Guest Zayit]

I'm going to start showing the differences between Hellenism and Hebraic thought with your post if you don't mind.

This is not to say that either is "better" but rather only to point out that they are different.

In Greek, the word for Greece is "Hell

The Greek (or Hellenistic period) was the first time that the world had been completely conquered. Alexander the Great saw it as his life mission to spread Greek philosophy, language, and education over the entire planet.

This is why the first biblical manuscripts were in Greek...so everyone could read them. The Messiah and His disciples appeared in a world that was greatly influenced by the philosophies of Plato & Socrates. The Greek gods were widely known and respected, even by the Romans. Even in Israel many Jews were hellenistic...desiring to throw off the God of their fathers in order to be "modern" and "sophisticated"

This is exactly what caused the rise of the Pharisees who wanted to ensure that the God of Israel was not forgotten or lost in a modern world.

The most simplistic definition of Hellenistic vs Hebraic is that Hellenism sees man as the center of the universe. We (man) are the very purpose of Creation!

Hebraic thought sees God as the center. He created the universe and all it contains for His purpose. He has no debt to please us at all.

The Hellenistic mind frame sees the Sabbath (and other commandments) as burdensome or legalistic because it imposes on our self-will. No one is going to tell us what to do or when to do it! God has given us His Holy Spirit and therefore we have authority to be elohim (judges) on the earth. After all, the earth was created for our pleasure

The hebraic mindframe sees the Sabbath (and other commandments) in terms of obedience being a sign of true faith. God gets what God wants and it doesn't matter whether we like it or not. He has ultimately given us the law for our good and we will seek His will in doing it because He alone sees the big picture and who are we to counsel Him?

So even a passage like "The Sabbath is made for man" has an almost 180 degree opposite meaning from the hellenistic interpretation to the hebraic and that is why I say that we are talking past each other without understanding what the other is saying.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the differences we are having in this one conversation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yod, I understand what you are saying, and I personally don't follow the Hellenistic view of things. I truly believe with all my heart that Jesus changed things when he came. If we are still under the law of the Sabbath and when the Pharisees accused Him of working on the Sabbath, then why did Jesus not correct them by telling them what He was doing was not work. Instead he told them that both He and The Father were still working.

If we were still expected to keep the letter of the Sabbath then why did he not do so Himself. I truly do not understand why this conversation is so totally apart between the two groups of people here. It seems to me like the people who are Jewish or wish to be so are still wanting to be under the Law and the New Testament tells us that it is of no help in attaining salvation. I simply do not understand and the more we post the more I don't understand. And remember that I agree with you that God gets what God wants and it doesn't matter whether we like it or not. The difference between us is that we have a difference of opinion of what God wants. You are still working with the things that Jehovah Elohiym wanted with the old covenant and I am working with what Jesus wanted with the new, and remember from discussions from the Trinity threads that I believe that Jesus was/is Jehovah Elohiym. That is what I see as we go through this discussion.....

Might I add that I hope this is really a discussion.. I am only trying to explain why I believe what I do, and really hope that all understands that it is very ok if you disagree. But we can carry on the discussion for I have been taught by the up bringing of the CoC to keep an open mind to possibly being wrong in doctrine. I've had a really good lessons in wrong doctrine and have spent many years in developing what I believe from the word, for it is not a simple thing to have a belief that agrees with all scripture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Other one, are you familiar with the work law? Or the Sabbath laws? Do you remember that after the resurrection the apostles where only traveling the Sabbath distance on the Sabbath? Have you taken the 'laws' Yeshua was accused of breaking and looked them up in the Torah? Was he really breaking his own laws, or man-made prohibitions that became burdens?

If we were still expected to keep the letter of the Sabbath then why did he not do so Himself.  I truly do not understand why this conversation is so totally apart between the two groups of people here.  It seems to me like the people who are Jewish or wish to be so are still wanting to be under the Law and the New Testament tells us that it is of no help in attaining salvation.

It's not about being under law and its not about being saved, this isn't a salvation issue, but rather a walking with the L-RD issue. If you believe we are in the New covenant then his laws are written on your heart not done away with, right?

Israel was saved by the first passover, they came out of bondage ( slavery in Egypt akin to slavery of sin) then passed through the red sea ( water baptism) and then on the other side and were betrothed and thene and taught how to walk in the way pleasing to their husband and were then taken as G-ds wife . Is Yeshua/Jesus not our husband? Should we not look to please him, He said, if you Love me, Love me, Love your husband, you will keep his commandments. If you believe he is from everlasting you must believe that it was he who spoke with Moshe, and he who carved those laws in stone and gave all the other precepts.

Honor and obey, that is what I choose to do for my husband, I am not under any law that says I have to, I do it out of love.