Why good men go to hell?

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Being counted as righteous by God is not the same as being good in God's eyes. 

How "good" Diaste, do you want to have the people?  If they are given access to Paradise by the Lord Jesus and receive eternal life, do you think they are good enough?

Edited January 14, 2021 by Frits

[Still Alive]

On 1/6/2021 at 1:32 PM, Josheb said:

Let me make sure I understand this. Is your basic point this: God doesn't send folks to hell; they choose it themselves. Is that the point you're trying to make?

I would certainly make that point - in a way. I don't think of "hell" the way a lot of my brethren do. The bible talks about Sheol, hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, the last being a place for angels only. This PDF will help the discussion quite a bit:  https://wrongabouthell.com/Words Translated As Hell.pdf

I find that way too often, a discussion on hell brings debaters that don't agree on what the word even means or refers to. I think the above document may help add clarity and civility to this discussion.

[Still Alive]

You can not work your way to heaven nor sin (work) your way to "hell". Said in another way, if you can do one, you can do the other.

That is not what the Gospel is about. We are saved because of Him, not anything we can do or do other than accept His free gift. And that changes your perspective and your life. You don't become perfect, but you become a new creature, no doubt about it. 

[Your closest friendnt]

13 hours ago, Still Alive said:

You can not work your way to heaven nor sin (work) your way to "hell". Said in another way, if you can do one, you can do the other.

That is not what the Gospel is about. We are saved because of Him, not anything we can do or do other than accept His free gift. And that changes your perspective and your life. You don't become perfect, but you become a new creature, no doubt about it. 

Thank you for your post. 

In Adam's time there was not Heaven or Hell as it is since the time of Jesus Christ death on the Cross.

Adam was in life at first and then found him in death.

His Inheritance at the time of his physical death was in Hades the place of the dead. 

This is a descending Inheritance in the earth and the only way to go there it was to get out of the body at the time of physical death.

This was his inheritance because of his disobedience,  at the time of his disobedience he fell from Life to death and that what he pass on to his children.

There was not a way out of this death Inheritance, no matter what, the righteousness of man could not remove the death Inheritance from anyone. 

And what Adam had  that's what he gave to his children.

 

The Inheritance of death at time of death was the place of the dead in Hades where the God of the dead kept e very one who died and no one could leave that place, they were captives to their generational cause from Adam. 

That's why it is called the Inheritance of Captivity. 

Everyone in Hades was held captive as they were not judge according to the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which it had to happened after Jesus Christ died on the Cross. 

That's when Jesus Christ went to the place of the Captivity and Preach the Gospel to them , the Gospel of Life. 

Everyone who believed in him he was moved from death unto life. 

Those who believe unto Life cannot remained there because that place is only for those in Death.

Those who did not believe remained there in Hades not as Captives anyone, but because they did not believe in Jesus Christ.  

They had a window of three days to make up their mind, at which time Hades use as the place of Captivity changed and became a place of abode of anyone who because of his decision to not believe in Jesus Christ when they were given the opportunity to believe those three days and before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

At that time Hades is synonymous to Hell, because Hell is a place for anyone who refused to believe and they are in death because of their own decision.  

Living in righteousness it does not remove the inheren death from anyone.  

In Genesis 4: we see the benefit of Living in righteousness and the result of disobedience in the comment of God to the people of that time not to kill another man. 

Abel born to Adam who was in death he inherit from Adam many things but he also inherit death from Adam.

We understand that Adam cannot give him something that did not have at the time Abel was conceived. 

Abel living a righteous life had the benefit to be in favor with God while he lived, even though his righteousness did not remove the death Inheritance from him, it gave him a place in the place of Captivity under the God of the dead "Hades" reserved for those who lived accordingly as everyone recieved according how he lived on earth, grouped as the just with the just and the violent with the violent. 

Hades did not have the right to do as he pleased with him. As he had to treat everyone according to what they have done while they lived on earth. 

In the example of Cain, who committed the previous sin, disobeying God who had commanded them not to kill another man, the result of his sin was to be cut off from God during his life on earth and to recieve after his death from Hades what he deserved according to his actions on earth. 

This is how things were at that time and afterwards till they changed.  First with the exception of Abraham and his chosen seed after him Isaac, Jacob and all Jacob's house all his children, when God removed the death Inheritance from them but did not give them and were alive to him because of righteousness not only in this life but also after death.

They were off limit to the God of the dead. The God of the dead could not have them. This is the first time that it happened as an exception to the general rule that apply for the rest of the world because of Adam's disobedience but not to Abraham and his chosen seed.

Till Jesus Christ death when everything changed and Life came to man through faith in Jesus Christ and with that the inheritans of the people who are in Christ Jesus to be where he is with him in Hevean. 

Jesus set the CAPTIVES in Hades who believed in him when he preached the Gospel to them after his death. To those who believed in him that time he set them free from their Captivity in Hades, unto him. 

Ephesians 4:7-9

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

⁸ Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

⁹ (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Edited January 15, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Still Alive]

22 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for your post. 

In Adam's time there was not Heaven or Hell a available to him, he was in Death because of the fall, from life to death because of his disobedience and there was not a way out of it, not at that time. 

And what Adam had  that's what he gave to his children.

What he had he gave to them. 

The Inheritance of death at time of death was the place of the dead in Hades where the God of the dead kept them and no one could leave, they were captives to their generational cause from Adam. 

Living in righteousness did not remove the inheren death from anyone.  

In Genesis 4: we see the benefit of Living in righteousness and the result of disobedience in the comment of God to the people of that time not to kill another man. 

Abel born to Adam who was in death he inherit from Adam many things but he also inherit death from Adam.

We understand that Adam cannot give him something that did not have at the time Abel was conceived. 

Abel living a righteous life had the benefit to be in favor with God while he lived, even though his righteousness did not remove the death Inheritance from him, it gave him a place in the place of Captivity under the God of the dead "Hades". 

Hades did not have the right to do as he pleased with him. As he had to treat everyone according to what they have done while they lived on earth. 

In the example of Cain, who committed the previous sin, disobeying God who had commanded them not to kill another man, the result of his sin was to be cut off from God during his life on earth and to recieve after his death from Hades what he deserved according to his actions on earth. 

This is how things were at that time and afterwards till they changed.  First with the exception of Abraham and his chosen seed after him Isaac, Jacob and all Jacob's house all his children, when God removed the death Inheritance from them but did not give them and were alive to him because of righteousness not only in this life but also after death.

They were off limit to the God of the dead. The God of the dead could not have them. This is the first time that it happened as an exception to the general rule that apply for the rest of the world because of Adam's disobedience but not to Abraham and his chosen seed.

Till Jesus Christ death when everything changed and Life came to man through faith in Jesus Christ and with that the inheritans of the people who are in Christ Jesus to be where he is with him in Hevean. 

Jesus set the CAPTIVES in Hades who believed in him when he preached the Gospel to them after his death. To those who believed in him that time he set them free from their Captivity in Hades, unto him. 

Ephesians 4:7-9

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

⁸ Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

⁹ (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I think we agree, but I had to read a few sentences more than once. I look at it all this way: We are all souls that are given a body. Those that accept Christ that are reborn, are seeing the BIRTH of their spirit. That is what is born. 

So, for all men the body we occupy dies. And if one has not received a spirit (the new birth), then "they" (their personality - the person/soul) dies in the second death. For those that have been reborn, the spirit and soul live on. 

[Frits]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And that is where the conversation goes awry. I didn't "wrongly qualify" anything or anyone and false accusations are not an edifying or fruit-bearing way to discuss the matter at hand. In other words, the posts fail in regard to both method AND content. 

Learn to post without accusing people. Learn to start with something other than accusations and if you're going to note an error then do it with some evidence based on what was actually posted. 

 

 

Abraham sinned.
Moses sinned.
Peter sinned. 

I can point you to the scriptures reporting their sinful acts. It cannot be denied they were sinners. I'm not "wrongly qualifying them." 

And you are not answering questions asked of you. If you cannot provide a verse stating God calling someone god then at least answer, 

Have all people sinned?

Shouldn't have to ask but once and by now I must have asked close a half-dozen times.

Have all people sinned?

Already done. You're clearly not paying attention. That's a Frits problem, not a Josh problem. 

You're not providing scripture of God actually specifically calling anyone good.
You're not answering questions asked.
You're abusing scripture to make it say things it doesn't state.
You're repeating yourself unnecessarily.
You're asking others to repeat themselves unnecessarily.
You're posting ad hominem, straw men, false equivalencies and a variety of other logical fallacies. 
You're not paying attention to what is actually posted. 

 

Been a little over a month. Brought the above dross into the forum. It's good and just of the brothers and sisters here to point these things out to you as long as they do so in hopes of improving your posting because everyone benefits when you're a better poster. 

You may not expect it Josheb, but I find our discussion interesting.
However, there is a serious concern on my part about your statements.
You call good righteous men of God, sinners!  That is serious and you should come back to it.
Not because of our little discussion, but once you will be judged - just like me - on your words.  (Mt.12:36)

I wondered how this delusion, "the righteous are sinners too", got into your head.
And while I was praying for you, something became clear to me.
You were probably brought up with the "original sin theory," defined by Augustine and was elaborated by the French theologian J. Calvin. 
In addition, you have studied philosophy / psychology, which has resulted in a deadly combination.
Greek philosophy (Socrates Plato, Aristotle), like Talmudic wisdom, does not allow the wisdom of Christ!

As soon as one word or phrase doesn't fit Augustine's paradigm ('non posse non peccare'!), your aversion to it is amplified by your philosophical knowledge.
As a result, you equate the man who fell into sin with the devils.  You believe that man is corrupt and inclined to all evil, just like the devil!
Obviously, this error leads you to call good righteous people like Moses, sinners!
Then a bell should ring at you, right? Even fallen man is far from being a devil. Neither Greek philosophy nor Jewish wisdom (Talmud), takes into account the love of our God the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Lord Jesus loves all people, also sinners, to save them.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". (Rom. 5:8)

I know you don't trust me, but I wanted to tell you this as a brother in Christ.

God bless you.

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I'm just trying to understand the other posters pov. Nothing more. Try not to weigh in until I do.

OK. I'm out of that one. However, if it's just between the two of you, it probably should be via PM, rather than publicly, in a thread. All comments in a public thread are for everyone's consumption and possible comment.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Still Alive

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think we agree, but I had to read a few sentences more than once. I look at it all this way: We are all souls that are given a body. Those that accept Christ that are reborn, are seeing the BIRTH of their spirit. That is what is born. 

So, for all men the body we occupy dies. And if one has not received a spirit (the new birth), then "they" (their personality - the person/soul) dies in the second death. For those that have been reborn, the spirit and soul live on. 

There was a come back from the death we inherited from Adam, because it was not our fault , we were in Adam's death Inheritance. 

Then our opportunity for a come back to life through Jesus Christ....

If we refuse to believe then we are responsible and If we die with the denial....this is it, there is no another chance, this is the second death to died with the denial of faith in Jesus Christ. 

No one can be rescued when he/she dies with the denial of Jesus Christ...

Only if they have heard the Gospel. 

They cannot denied the Gospel if it was not preach to them. 

That means they do not believe, no fault of their own, but they have not denied...

Thank you for the discussion.

God bless 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

Immaterial. Glad to read it but I don't care. 

No, scripture calls them what the are: sinners. 

Okay, but I assumed you knowledge of scripture was sufficient to already know this since within your first month in the forum you presume to tell everyone what and how to believe to the point of personal attack. 

You mentioned Noah, Abraham, and Peter. 

 

Noah got drunk. This is reported in Genesis 9:21. Noah was a sinner.

Abraham lied and he lied putting his wife at risk and he did so to selfishly protect himself and in neglect of trusting God. This is recorded in Genesis 20. Although it was true Sarah was his sister he withheld the full truth and committed a lie of omission. If God hadn't intervened the king would have violated Abe's wife and marriage. Not only does scripture repeatedly tell us lying and bearing false witness is sin but it also tells us anything not done in faith is sin (Rom. 14:23) Abe was a sinner.

No only did Peter deny the Son, for which we can reasonably infer he was subsequently forgiven and reconciled given the conversation on the beach and command to feed Christ's sheep, he also committed recurring acts of hypocrisy when behaving one way with Jewish converts and another way with Gentile converts and this malpractice was so substantive it caused others to sin and required Paul's correction. This is reported in Galatians 2 where we find the statement "he stood condemned." Peter was a sinner. 

 

Get used to this, Frits. I don't post claims I can't evidence. Unlike you, I don't make baseless accusations. And I try to practice what I preach. Let's see if you can do the same. This all started because the claim no one since Adam has been called good; Adam was the last person God called good. You just asked me to evidence my claim Noah, Abraham, and Peter were sinners. I asked you long ago to show scripture where God calls someone good. I've done what was asked. 

You have not. 

You've tried to get around it by providing scripture of God calling people nice things, but not a single one of them was the word "good." You've tried to conflate ontological goodness with positive qualities but that is not the same thing. It is a false equivalency. 

Can you provide a verse where God calls someone good?
Can you agree with Romans 3:23?
Can you now see that Noah, Abraham, and Peter did in fact sin (and thereby fall short of God's glory)? 

 

Or are you going to continue avoiding what should be places of near-instant agreement?

 

Not agreement with me; agreement with God's word.

@Josheb

This OP is about the question,
 "Why good men go to hell?"
My answer to that is; good people don't go to hell, bad people go to hell!
Your argument was that there have been no good people on the earth since Adam.

You think all people are sinners, including Moses!
I say Moses was a good man, a righteous one.
Hallulujah!  Praise the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for that.

I've always based my claims on the Bible, but you didn't want to see that.  You have always denied that, and therefore even attacked and falsely accused me.
I have prayed for you, that the Lord Jesus may forgive you.

I will now show you from God's Word the Bible that Moses is a righteous man.

We are not the first two to have this discussion about Moses.
In Jude we read that the archangel Michael was arguing with the devil about the body of Moses. (Jd.1:9)
Because of the sins that Moses had committed, the devil said Moses was evil and had the right to cast Moses into hell!

However, Michael has been commissioned by God Himself to prevent this, and to take this good and righteous man to the Kingdom of God.
And that's exactly what happened.

After his death, the good and righteous Moses does not reside in hell, but with God in His Kingdom.  Hallelujah!

From God's Kingdom, Moses (and also Elijah) got the opportunity to meet the Lord Jesus on the mountain!

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (Mt.17:3)

 

God bless you bro.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Frits said:

@Josheb

This OP is about the question,
 "Why good men go to hell?"
My answer to that is; good people don't go to hell, bad people go to hell!
Your argument was that there have been no good people on the earth since Adam.

You think all people are sinners, including Moses!
I say Moses was a good man, a righteous one.
Hallulujah!  Praise the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for that.

I've always based my claims on the Bible, but you didn't want to see that.  You have always denied that, and therefore even attacked and falsely accused me.
I have prayed for you, that the Lord Jesus may forgive you.

I will now show you from God's Word the Bible that Moses is a righteous man.

We are not the first two to have this discussion about Moses.
In Jude we read that the archangel Michael was arguing with the devil about the body of Moses. (Jd.1:9)
Because of the sins that Moses had committed, the devil said Moses was evil and had the right to cast Moses into hell!

However, Michael has been commissioned by God Himself to prevent this, and to take this good and righteous man to the Kingdom of God.
And that's exactly what happened.

After his death, the good and righteous Moses does not reside in hell, but with God in His Kingdom.  Hallelujah!

From God's Kingdom, Moses (and also Elijah) got the opportunity to meet the Lord Jesus on the mountain!

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (Mt.17:3)

 

God bless you bro.

 

  ****what is this argument about the people who lived before Jesus Christ Cross what about them? 

We have to walk this step by step.

Adam our forefather was created in the Life, the Creator had the Life and that what he gave to Adam.

Adam in the Life gave Life to Eve...

Eve inherit the Life from Adam and Adam from God.  

Each one of them Adam and Eve had the burden to remain in Life with their own obedience. 

Eve disobeyed first, for a brief time Eve was in death and Adam was in the Life, till Adam eat from the fruit and then both of them were in Death. 

This is it, their descendants inherited death from them, everyone one inherited death from them.  

As a rule the righteousness of man it does not remove the inherited death from anyone. 

(Important to Keep in mind that we discussing how things were before the Cross)

So we have righteous and unrighteous people on earth and both are in death.

They both belong to the death Inheritance.

Reminder: we are before the Cross, keep this in mind please.

Noah a righteous man with the inherited Death Inheritance, he was born in it and he died in it. 

The example of Abel, who died as a righteous person, born in Adam's Death Inheritance and he died in Adam's Death Inheritance. 

The Lord mourned for Abel (that's mine, for emphasis, because he knew that before it happens that after death Abel cannot be with him, because the righteousness of Man cannot give Life) for Abel was not with him after he died.

For the Lord asked Cain. Where is your brother after Abel's death. 

God asked the question because Abel was not with him. 

Enoch also a righteous man in Adam's death Inheritance, in righteousness but still in Adam's death Inheritance as righteousness does not remove death to give Life. 

God took him before he died.

If he was left to died he would have joined Abel in the place of the Captivity the death Inheritance for Man which is Hades. 

Only the Life giver can give Life to man and that's is Jesus Christ and only after the Cross, only after his death. 

Every one who died before the Cross including the righteous and everyone else in the world, The glorious Jesus Christ went to them after the Cross, Jesus preached the Gospel to all in the Place of the dead , and every who believed in him recieved of his Life at the same time they  received the forgiveness of sins, they must believe in him to be in him in his Life, to be partakers of his Life and of his Spirit of Adaptation.  And that can only happen after Jesus Christ death on the Cross. 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Your closest friendnt