Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 I don't view Rome as the kingdom that succeeded Greece,  per se.  Daniel 2 says that the kingdom of brass consists of the belly AND [2] thighs of the great image.   The legs are iron and the feet and toes are iron mixed with clay.   The iron kingdom has its origins in a divided kingdom,  not a United one.   Many people look to the split of the Roman kingdom into East and west as portraying the divided kingdom.   But that didn't happen until 400+ years after the 1st advent.   How can the 6th king of Rev 17 be the king that is,  if the Roman empire didn't split for 400 years?   I'm not dismissing Rome.  It just needs to put in its proper place.   At the time of the rise of the Roman empire,  there were 2 of Alexander's oligarchy ruling the "world".  I view the "world" of Daniel 2 as consisting of the places where the "children of men" dwelt. 

Well, this is a perfect illustration of one should never get what he asks!  Just after I posted this I did not get much of a response.... well, that certainly has changed and it looks like all the knowledgeable and talented folks are going to feast on this meal... but that is what I was hoping for..... I simply could not take all the interpretations of those that are considered to have "mastered" Daniel 11 and found support and acceptance within MOST of the Daniel community, if you will. There simply was too much inconsistency and incompleteness in some of their interpretations...... and most importantly, I could not find within much of their interpretations the purpose (according to me) of all the prophetic verses in the latter chapters of Daniel... where is all the much needed discussion of the 4th kingdom and ALL the amazing events and actors described (but not yet identified) in 2,7 & 8? 

I believe the two legs of iron represent pagan Rome -- yes, many have interpreted them to be represented of the east and west kingdoms within Rome but I don't. I find there are a few important characteristics of the this 4th kingdom found in all 3 chapters; the obvious one maybe found in chapter 2 where Daniel identifies this 4th kingdom with iron. I am NO history guy but I do believe that Rome was known for using iron in their weaponry / whether swords or catapults or whatever they could create in order to destroy their foes.  Also, the two legs are appropriate; pagan Rome was noted as a vicious conqueror. They indeed would use these legs to travel all the known earth .. they did conquer from England and throughout eastern and western Europe, all the states on all sides of the Mediterranean... the two legs are a perfect symbol of them. Additionally, I also find the use of the iron mixed with clay another perfect symbol (although there are two applications with the feet and toes), but for now, the military application ... I believe the legs, those very powerful iron legs would stamp and trample down on any and every foe that came against them or were just in their path. But unlike the iron legs, the constant stamping down and crashing down on their foes would take a tremendous toll on their feet. Our feet are NOT made for a constant and continuous pounding and over time, it will begin to wear down and crack under the constant pounding.... at first, the feet will do just find, it will absorb all the force placed down on by those powerful legs.... but it could not last.. and we do see cracks developing with those feet. Additionally, (and again within the military application only), as pagan Rome extended itself it became quite thin and vulnerable to other nations or enemies.. Their empire was indeed quite impressive and they became too thin to contain and control all their boundaries. Hence, they made treaties with some  of their conquered nations and brought them somewhat into their empire - especially those in the eastern part of their empire. This "mingling" of iron with clay represents the beginning of the end of the Roman Empire.... through their very aggressive war plan and their desire not only to conquer but almost completely destroy their foes caused damage to their war machine (their toes)... and NO army can fight with damaged feet, and this required them to bring in non Romans to "fill in" these cracks in their feet....

Now, I was hoping we might be able to address the first few verses of 11 before we move on to the latter verses to see if there is consistency.... there is absolutely no way for me to respond to anything in Revelation since: I have yet to study Revelation and I have been told repeatedly (and I agree), we must first understand Daniel and then apply it to Revelation.  So I would respectfully ask if we can keep Revelation on hold until Daniel is completed.... but make no mistake at the end of the day, Daniel and Revelation must fit together like a hand in a glove.... 

 

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Dan 2:38 KJV And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Not sure here but the head of gold represented Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar certainly controlled the known world and did exactly as he pleased. 

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Rome never conquered all of the territory that Alexander did.   Rome and Egypt were the last two powers controlling the "world".

I think Rome surpassed Greece to a great extent..... I think it was Greece and Rome that were the last two kingdoms.

 

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Rome portrays the king of the North.    Egypt portrays the kingdom of the South.   The daughter of the king of the South is Cleopatra.  Julius Caesar is the king of the north.   They tried to unite their kingdoms with the birth of Caesarian.   Rome dominated the southern kingdom of Egypt at the time of the 1st advent and beyond.   It was the last of the 4 kingdoms of the quartered Alexandrian kingdom.  But it has fallen.   

I do believe that most folks follow your thoughts on this.... I also find that pagan Rome is the KON, but Egypt is not the KOS. The daughter of the KOS and the Caesar's represent a truly secular view and not the one I could come away with for 11.

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Today,  the kingdom of the north is best portrayed by the European union.   The kingdom of the South is best portrayed by the Muslim world,  the Arabs of OPEC.  You have industrialism on one hand, of the kingdom of the north.   And you have the Grease of the squeaky wheel on the other hand, representing the kingdom of the South.   Europeans and Arabs.   I know you probably won't agree with me, but Daniel 11:7ff is the story of how the two kingdoms will unite to form the 7th head.   Together,  they will control the Greek "world".    The rise of the vile king of the north,  will be preceded by a "raiser of taxes" in the latter days time of the "glory of the kingdom".

Dan 11:20-23 KJV ²⁰ Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle. ²¹ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. ²² And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. ²³ And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Verse 20 is referring to the [2nd, not last] king of the South.  The one who succeeds him [the 3rd king of the South]  will be the one who obtains the kingdom by flattering, not by war.   Verse 20 is about the "2nd" king of the South,  because the one who succeeds him is the one who unifies the two kingdoms,  north and south.   This unifier through flatteries (king)  will also be the last king of the north.   Notice what verse 22 says.   And "they" shall be overflown by the prince of the covenant.   Got to go,  for now.  But I will close by saying that Daniel 11:7ff is ALL about the last days.

So sorry to have to repeat myself, but I am trying to address the first few verses of 11 and also not worry about the fit within Revelation.... but I do appreciate your thoughts as they are valuable to others who read this....

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Addendum: 

In verse 7, "a branch out of her roots" will be the 1st of the three last days kings of the South,  that begins chapter 11.  The "fourth " king of verse 2 is the king that [after the unification of and rules] the two kingdoms.   That is why the angel tells Daniel, "... three kings shall arise,  and the 4th shall be far richer...".  The three "kings of the South are found in: 

Verse 7 is certainly a critical and most important verse in 11. But in order for us to identify this actor we need to come to terms with 1-6 at least....

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

#1, verse 7.

#2, verse 20, the raiser of taxes. 

#3, verse 21, the vile king, who obtains the kingdom by flatteries.  This 3rd king of the South arrives on the scene as the king of the north.   He,  as the king of the North,  succeeds the 2nd king of the South by flatter,  thus unifying the two kingdoms of north and south.   

[#4] Is only alluded to in verse 45 when this "3rd king" comes to his end.   He is the 4th king that shall arise in the last days.   He comes in as the 11th horn of Daniel 7, ruling over the 10 horns of the 4th kingdom,  a unified kingdom of Arabs and Europeans.   This marks the rise of the 7th head of Daniel 7, spoken of in Rev 13 and 17.  Daniel 7 says it this way:  [I am not sure if the 10 horns strictly represents just the kingdom of the South or the whole United Kingdom of North and South.  In Rev 17, it indicates that the former is probably true,  because it says that "they shall give their kingdom unto the beast".]

Dan 7:24-25 KJV ²⁴ And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise AFTER THEM; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. ²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Another rise after the 10 horns and subdued the other 3 kings of Daniel 7.  He is the 4th, that arises after the little horn dies and his body is given to the burning flame.   The saints shall be given into HIS hand for time, times and the dividing of time, for 42 months!   It's not a full 3.5 years.   The fourth year is only a part of a year, a dividing of time.   Three and one half years of Jewish time would actually be 43 or 44 months. 

The PuP 

Again, sorry for repeating myself - we can and should be able to get to these verses later on...  I am definitely sure your comments are well received by those reading / interested in this topic.... Charlie

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WE ARE  LIVING IN THE 5TH 

I think a problem might be because of taking the 'names and titles' and trying to affix a time to them.  When we hear "the beast that ascends out of the pit"  DOESN'T mean it is setting a time, it is just naming a who.  I THINK, AND IDK


I am not sure where we are not connecting, before understanding kings of north and south and all the rest, the foundation must be sure.  

So the best foundation laid is by Gods own words... 

 This is a place I found that unless I am reading in error IF NOT it tells us exactly who what when and where. 
 
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Angel is going to show the JUDGEMENT,  

THIS SETS THE TIME  (Please know I am not yelling, it is how my brain connects so I don't get lost)  (unless the 90% post is in caps, then, I am yelling)
 

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

This is Gods Word. 

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.  
 

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was,

was meaning all the  WAY UP UNTIL Judgment came

2  Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

THAT pretty much ends that Satanic kingdom 

AND with that SATAN HAS BECOME 

NOT ONLY A "WAS", BUT ALSO AN "IS NOT"

THAT FAST

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,


AND it also fits 
 WILL BE
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

When he shall
and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,

lose the war

and go into perdition:


and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


 

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Unfortunately, I have NOT studied Revelation as you or most others have already done so I can not begin to comment on this.... but I am sure those that have studied Revelation will benefit from your comments..... it is too early for me....Charlie

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

DeighAnn, I apologize for not responding to this post earlier... I got caught up in responding to others and when I continued to scroll down I simply missed it.....

Anyway, rather that repeat myself on this specific topic - feet and toes, I would ask that you read my recent response to Da Puppers (I believe) and then offer everyone your thoughts and comments on this......

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

The 5th kingdom that reigns until Satan comes for the one world system, DENIES our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as Emmanuel.  
That would be the Muslims who have retained it since 630 something.

 

I must tell you that I have no understanding of a 5th kingdom whatsoever......sorry.

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The beast was, (6th)  Satan, (his angels  will reign for an hour with the beast).  "with the seed of men" clarifying more than anything for me this is the order.   

 

Once again, I am in the dark..... I only see 4 kingdoms in Daniel and the 4th is the Beast. You may be incorporating verses in Revelation here........ I don't know but there can not be any more than 4 kingdoms ...... Revelation may talk about powers or whoever that may amount to more than 4 or 6 or 7.... but Revelation will / can not change the number of kingdoms in Daniel --- again. this should open the door for more discussion among the group.

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Just as Satan has been setting up for the battle, SO HAS GOD.   We call them Christians, the church, the body of Christ.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Yes, this is the stone that crushes the metal man image.... He will destroy all of man's kingdoms and evil ways and establish His kingdom.

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts AND your responses to anything posted here... thanks, Charlie

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Why are we living in the 5th?   I [know] what you are saying,  regarding the 7 kings that are to arise.   What are the 4 that have already risen? 

The PuP 

What is it they all have in common?  They RULE over Jerusalem. 


 God tells us
       WHO is the head of Gold, history the rest. 
Daniel 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

THE THINGs that are or should be  IMPORTANT   to US ARE 
the 'characteristics' of each kingdom

because the whos whens don't matter (except for identifying the times and seasons for the future), 
but they give us clues to/ about HOW SATAN WORKS, what his 'kingdom' will look and act like.     

This information is given us so that we might SEE/learn.  Leopard, bear...  So that we know what to look for.  This is part of our gospel armor.  Behold I have foretold you ALL THINGS.  

If we stay in the SPIRIT of the Word and out of the 'letter' of it then the Spirit can lead.  If it is all about the letter you don't get  that.  The ways of the word, the exactly being right on everything ROBS you of your time with the LORD.    

So we can do as the Watchman is supposed to do and sound the warning!!!   So we can make sure these truths are given in enough time.  And time is short.  VERY short.   Labor pains are coming faster and faster and What happens at the end of Labor?  New Age.    

 It is all about the saving of our souls and the souls of our brethren THROUGH KNOWLEDGE.  

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise


Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
 

Daniel 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Those are the things the SPIRIT opens your eyes to.  They are the clues hidden in plain sight that the letter makes you pass over (for a long time anyhow)  but the Spirit hands you.  I don't even know if I answered your question.  

Just in case Look up Mount Moriah or Dome of the Rock and who took it from roman control and has possessed it ever since.  But if you have more we should get out of Charlies place as we have been told this is not what is being addressed.  PM  if you want to talk more.  

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

DeighAnn, I apologize for not responding to this post earlier... I got caught up in responding to others and when I continued to scroll down I simply missed it.....

Anyway, rather that repeat myself on this specific topic - feet and toes, I would ask that you read my recent response to Da Puppers (I believe) and then offer everyone your thoughts and comments on this......

I must tell you that I have no understanding of a 5th kingdom whatsoever......sorry.

Once again, I am in the dark..... I only see 4 kingdoms in Daniel and the 4th is the Beast. You may be incorporating verses in Revelation here........ I don't know but there can not be any more than 4 kingdoms ...... Revelation may talk about powers or whoever that may amount to more than 4 or 6 or 7.... but Revelation will / can not change the number of kingdoms in Daniel --- again. this should open the door for more discussion among the group.

Yes, this is the stone that crushes the metal man image.... He will destroy all of man's kingdoms and evil ways and establish His kingdom.

Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts AND your responses to anything posted here... thanks, Charlie

 

THE kingdoms are just as they played out in history.  

I really don't feel like I know much about this either but for us to see how Satan has worked and influenced kingdoms throughout history.  So we know what to expect and be prepared.  

It's like our calendar or watch.  The reply to Da PUP will help.  

 Once the guys didn't fry in the furnace,  I was pretty satisfied.  I learned enough to get the high lights. 

The fifth kingdom is the Muslims.  I only know this because of the Dome of the Rock.  They have possessed it for the past 1500?? years.  Satan is on the way,  I don't see any other way to make the pieces fit.  This way they all fit perfectly.  

Remember, Satan is coming and the whole world will worship after him.  THAT isn't a physical war, that is a spiritual one.  We are going to hear "peace and safety".  Sounds GREAT, except for the fact it is all lies meant to deceive.  It's before that that I think gets hard.  I have faith that Gods protection is upon me.  And being chosen to be beheaded sits just fine by me too!!  Like Peter?  walking on the water towards Christ, keep your eyes firmly fixed on Him.  Peaceful.  That what He left for us. And power over all our enemies. 

His power is in his mouth.  What I never seem to hear about is how God is sending the two witnesses and they arrive before Satan.  (ok just before)  BUT what do learn from that?  God is going to be MORE PRESENT than He is now.  He will be pouring out His Spirit.  When taken up for trial the HOLY Spirit will be speaking through those lucky enough to be chosen.  Remember Christ suffered the shame FOR THE JOY that lies on the other side.  

I know you know this but I can't help it   

 

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of His Holiness.

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

I stop

Edited January 24, 2021 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Once again, I am in the dark..... I only see 4 kingdoms in Daniel and the 4th is the Beast

Are you taking into consideration that Darius the Mede 
 
Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him

Mede is the next kingdom,  does that help?

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you taking into consideration that Darius the Mede 
 
Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him

Mede is the next kingdom,  does that help?

Thank you DeighAnn! I see the 4 kingdoms as:

Babylon,

Medes- Persians,

Greece,

Rome.  Charlie 

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Just a short response.   The queen of Zenobia, is believed to be a descendent of Cleopatra.   She ruled from Palmyra,  Syria.  Daniel 11:7 points to "a branch out of her roots", rising as the king of the South.   She lived about 300 years after the 1st advent.  This "branch" could come from most any Arab country.   I don't think (agree) that Egypt is [not] where he will rise from.   But he will weild consider power in the middle east when he arrives in the last days.  I think Daniel 11, the whole chapter,  focuses on the 3 kings of Persia that will arise, and then a 4th one comes.   I don't think I'm getting too far ahead.   I think that Ayatollah Khamenei, the Supreme ruler of Iran, (and his sons) are a good candidate for this 1st king.   There are some verses in Daniel 11 that leads me to that conclusion. 

Be Blessed

The PuP 

Thank you for your response! 

Do you find the 4th kingdom to be pagan Rome which comes after Greece?

Isn’t Alexander the king of the 3rd kingdom? 

The Mede-Persia kingdom came before Greece ... 

Does the quick summary in Daniel 11: 1-4 tell us or identifies the first 3 kingdoms?

 I believe I may understand your response after you might answer these few questions... thanks, Charlie 

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your response! 

Do you find the 4th kingdom to be pagan Rome which comes after Greece?

Isn’t Alexander the king of the 3rd kingdom? 

The Mede-Persia kingdom came before Greece ... 

Does the quick summary in Daniel 11: 1-4 tell us or identifies the first 3 kingdoms?

 I believe I may understand your response after you might answer these few questions... thanks, Charlie 

I have no idea were you are on this journey of dividing Daniel but just a few things that I found to be important, just in case, it's handy.  Please double check   

Daniel 11   1-20     future to Daniel,      past to us 0
 11:21 - 12:3        future to us  
 12:4 - 13      daniels current time

 

[Charlie744]

24 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I agree with the identity of the gold silver and brass.   I don't know that I would single #4 as "pagan" Rome.   They are all pagan worshipers of idols.   But,  I view "Rome" as the last vestige of Alexander's kingdom.   Rome was very highly hellenized in Greek culture.  I view it as the 6th "head" of the great image.   There are seven of them listed in Daniel 7:4-6,20.  The great image,  when completed will have had 7 heads.   The stone kingdom of Christ,  strikes the image on its feet and then was the "gold silver, clay,  brass and iron broken to pieces together".  I don't view the 4th kingdom as Rome,  per se.  But the 4th kingdom of the 10 horns,  is the final manifestation of the beast.   I believe Daniel 2  portrays a United federation of all 4 kingdoms that will be destroyed together by Christ.   The 4 kingdoms began with Babylon because that is where the "children of men" went to dwell in 586 BC and 722 BC by the Assyrians (they didn't go very far).  These are the enemies of Israel that God will avenge because they are/ were the promoters of Israel's idolatry.  Idolatry is the reason why Israel, as a kingdom,  went until bondage unto them.   She asked Samuel for a king,  because they did not want to obey God's commandments. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Thanks again for your thoughts! I have to say that I am confused.... but that is not unusual. I see 7:4  where the lion is a symbol of the Babylonian empire = the first kingdom.  Then 7:5 represents the next or second kingdom of the Medes=Persians and 7:6 is the 3rd kingdom of Greece. Finally, we have the "beast" as the 4th kingdom in 7:7.  Pagan Rome seems to me to have all the characteristics revealed to us in 2,7 & 8. All four kingdoms are pagan which is what I may have mentioned earlier  in one of my responses = Daniel is revealing the succession of kingdoms of mankind where they operating without the presence, abeyance or worship of the One True Living God and then we have the first advent of Jesus within the final kingdom and it is here where He establishes His Plan of Salvation of mankind. The major characteristics and the message in Daniel (especially 11) is to reveal the Messiah, the one (little horn) who would go against HIM and how the little horn would corrupt the Word of God AND he shall meet the words spoken of him in 11:31 to 11:36 - this is such an important prophecy within Daniel 11 - this little horn will think to change times and laws and speak blasphemies against God and exalt himself above all gods....  the latter verses in Daniel  ( in the 30's) tell us what this little horn will do....

But I am getting too far ahead here.... the most important issue at hand is to identify this 4th kingdom and then try to fill in those ACTORS #'S 1 THRU #7.

Hope this is clear and makes some sense to you and others..... but it is requested that we hear from many others within this forum as there are so many that have great knowledge and ability in the Scriptures. Thanks again, Charlie