Daniel 7..... the 10 horns

[Charlie744]

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

 

 

[abcdef]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

Hi Charlie744,

A preterist would say that everything in the Bible was fulfilled by 70 AD.

But if you believe that the Rev was written after 70 AD then looking at Rev 17 you would probably see them as future to John.

The reason is that John said that the 6th head "is" and the 10 horns/kings are shown to rise after the 7th head dies.

So if you understand that the 4th beast of Dan. 7 is the Roman Empire, this would show that after the 476 AD fall of Rome the Empire was completely and permanently divided.

The 10 horns and the little horn are all descended pieces from the Roman Empire.

The time of dividing is future to John's time but past to us.

-----------

The time of the crucifixion is implied in Dan. 7, as to be before the time when Jesus ascends to heaven to receive His kingdom.

This would not be completely understood at the time of Daniel, but was revealed to men after Pentecost.  Rom 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7-8.

 

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

 

 

The number 10 is used for completeness by God. We have a Kingdom of Iron (Rome) then the same area becomes Iron & Clay, over a 2000 some odd year period after Israel was no more, exactly when that last king fell may be worthy of debate, buts its not relevant to the overall story. John said ONE IS.........Rev. 17 says there will be 7 Kings that fall, so exactly when that 6th king fell is debatable, but its meaningless as per to the 7th king (Anti-Christ) falling. 

So we have Rome.......we then have NO BEAST during the Church Age period.......in 1948 Israel is reborn/God breathes on their dead bones. Now a Beast can arise, but the Church must be raptured first. So, during the Church Age this same kingdom is spoken of as Iron & Clay, its not about the end times until the Little Horn arises amidst the 10 (in Europe's divided kingdoms/kings) which could stand for varied numbers over that 2000 some odd year period. In essence, the number 10 is used to describe a Divided Europe, which will over time have many different numbers of Kings. The USA had varied numbers of states in the first 100 years or so, because it kept changing. So, if God was prophesying about the United States in its first 100 or 150 years the number 10 would have been used instead of using a number that kept changing. 

Rev. 2:10 shows this, the Church of Smyrna is said to have tribulation for 10 days, but that means for the total number of days in all of the Church Age period. The Jews had many, many laws given unto them by Moses, but they also had the 10 Commandments that represented the complete law. 

Its not going to be a 10 Nation entity, we see now that the E.U. has 27 members counting England and 26 not counting England. The number 10 just stands for completeness. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

Abcdef & RM - thank you both for your comments!

Ok, I understand Daniel 7, the 4th kingdom will reveal:

1) a beast, 

2) 10 horns (arising out of the top of the beast),

3) a little horn arising after the 10, 

4) 3 horns of the 10 were plucked up,

 

Now, assuming the beast is indeed pagan Rome (please comment if agree or not), then the beast “was” before the crucifixion. 

If the little horn is or has been identified as papal Rome (please comment if agree or not), then he “was” around the end of the 5th century AD. 

If so (two comments above), then the 10 horns must “be” prior to the coming of the little horn. Therefore, all 3 actors “are” before the end of the 5th century AD. Obviously, if the little horn is not interpreted as papal Rome, the time constraint is lifted and they can “arrive” any time after... they could still not “be” at 2020. 

Consequently, we need to identify these two actors by looking into Revelation. As I have mentioned before, I have yet to study Revelation because I was instructed to study Daniel first- and unless I understand Daniel I could not possibly understand or unpack Revelation!

Yet, and unless I am totally not getting it, most have / are looking at Revelation to understand or interpret Daniel. Now I certainly agree they MUST agree or fit together like a hand in a glove, but in my opinion, Daniel should “speak first”. 

Is it a strong possibility that because we (collectively) can not identify the 10 horns “being” around the 5th century AD, we must allow Revelation to “speak” to both the identity AND the time of these two actors?

One of my concerns is (assuming papal Rome is NOT the little horn), that these two actors will not be active and attack the Church for some 2,000 years. 

If papal Rome is the little horn (which I do believe), then it seems to fit in many ways- one of which is that “he will think to change times and laws”, etc. And this would then require the 10 horns to “be” prior to His coming to power (5th century AD). 

This would require that we are successful in identifying the 10 horns that would have to “be” THEN (which we are not able to do).

Also, is it possible that the language used in Daniel speaking that the little horn is “on top or on the head” of the beast indicating he will “be” at or near the beginning of the time of the beast (papal Rome), and directs or rules this beast... and not “arrive” near the end of time? 

I certainly look forward to hearing back from you folks and thanks again!!!

Charlie

 

 

 

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Abcdef & RM - thank you both for your comments!

Ok, I understand Daniel 7, the 4th kingdom will reveal:

1) a beast, 

The 4th kingdom IS the beast. A nation and it's leader that rules over the people of Israel.

Caesar and Rome.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

2) 10 horns (arising out of the top of the beast),

After Rome falls in 476 AD approx., it is completely divided unto nations. 

The statue of Dan. 2 shows that the 10 toes are also divided by the clay which would be additional nations besides remnants of The Empire. So the number 10 can only be symbolic in this care.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3) a little horn arising after the 10, 

The little horn nation (spiritual nation) is part of Rome as the 10 symbolic horns are.

See how the 4th beast nation has iron teeth in his mouth, speech.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

4) 3 horns of the 10 were plucked up,

Some show that the Papacy did consume 3 other groups after it's formation.

But the Rev 17 version doesn't show the devouring of the 3 other horns.

So it might be that it is not literal of the nations.

It could be showing the dominance of the little horn over the others to form a new unity.

For example, the Dan. 7, 4th beast has 11 horns, 10 + 1,

If you take away 3, then the horns are 7 + 1.

The number 7 being complete as shown in the 7 heads of the Rev 17 original beast.

So the 1 + 7 might be showing the complete domination over the 7 remaining (symbolic) nations, as the little horn would dominate a new kingdom (7) over them. 

The 7 would be a new kingdom, divided, but unified by the dominance of the little horn.

(The Papacy dominates the kingdoms around the globe as a spiritual dominating force, opposing the true kingdom/church Israel.)

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Now, assuming the beast is indeed pagan Rome (please comment if agree or not), then the beast “was” before the crucifixion. 

You are right.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

If the little horn is or has been identified as papal Rome (please comment if agree or not), then he “was” around the end of the 5th century AD. 

Ok, The horn is also one of the heads of Rev 17. It says that he is one of the seven.

This shows that he is the leader of the Roman Empire, Caesar.

He is Caesar but he is not, because the Roman Empire falls, yet is, in the form of the Vatican and the Bishop of Rome, the "image" of the Roman Empire.

The thing that ties the two together is Caesar worship. (The belief that the Bishop of Rome is the "Holy Father").

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

If so (two comments above), then the 10 horns must “be” prior to the coming of the little horn. Therefore, all 3 actors “are” before the end of the 5th century AD. Obviously, if the little horn is not interpreted as papal Rome, the time constraint is lifted and they can “arrive” any time after... they could still not “be” at 2020. 

Please notice that there are no gaps in the time lines of the nations of the Dan. 2 statue, the 4th beast, and the Rev 17 beast/horns.

So the 4th beast nation's timeline must be continual and not end and then start again centuries later, creating a gap.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Consequently, we need to identify these two actors by looking into Revelation. As I have mentioned before, I have yet to study Revelation because I was instructed to study Daniel first- and unless I understand Daniel I could not possibly understand or unpack Revelation!

The Dan.2 timeline is the simplest to understand. All other timelines MUST agree with it.

The Revelation reveals additional details given during the time of the 4th beast. 

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Yet, and unless I am totally not getting it, most have / are looking at Revelation to understand or interpret Daniel. Now I certainly agree they MUST agree or fit together like a hand in a glove, but in my opinion, Daniel should “speak first”. 

Is it a strong possibility that because we (collectively) can not identify the 10 horns “being” around the 5th century AD, we must allow Revelation to “speak” to both the identity AND the time of these two actors?

Rome divides (clay feet) and eventually divides (10 toes/clay) permanently in 476 AD approx.

Notice that the toes of the statue in Dan. 2 do not come back together again and become as large and powerful as the hips at the beginning of the iron.

The statue shows just the opposite, the toes get smaller and end.

What happens when the toes end?

What does it mean, that the toes end?

Think about it.

What event begins the statue? What event ends the statue?

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

One of my concerns is (assuming papal Rome is NOT the little horn), that these two actors will not be active and attack the Church for some 2,000 years.

Rome has tried to eliminate Israel from life for 2000 years.

It can ONLY be Rome.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

If papal Rome is the little horn (which I do believe), then it seems to fit in many ways- one of which is that “he will think to change times and laws”, etc. And this would then require the 10 horns to “be” prior to His coming to power (5th century AD). 

This would require that we are successful in identifying the 10 horns that would have to “be” THEN (which we are not able to do).

The number 10 is not literal in this case. 

The nations that were created after the Empire fell are known.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Also, is it possible that the language used in Daniel speaking that the little horn is “on top or on the head” of the beast indicating he will “be” at or near the beginning of the time of the beast (papal Rome), and directs or rules this beast... and not “arrive” near the end of time? 

The time span of the iron legs/toes nation of Rome begins when Rome invades Israel.

It ends when the domination of Rome over the people of Israel ends.

There is no gap shown.

 

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I certainly look forward to hearing back from you folks and thanks again!!!

Charlie

The Daniel 2 statue is the key to understanding the prophecies.

All other time lines MUST agree with it.

 

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much for your response! I have to go through it a few times to get all that you are saying... Charlie 

[Michael37]

On 9/29/2020 at 4:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

The similarities and differences between the prophecies of the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation are well documented. There are no end of charts to while away the hours studying.

I believe the Revelation depictions supersede those in Daniel whilst not contradicting them. 

Numbers in prophetic visions, as in nature, speak to function. The full number of fingers or toes is 10. These are extremities on our bodies. Likewise horns are also extremities on a body, so in Daniel and Revelation when we see the number 10 in relation to toes and horns, the extreme fullness of those kingdoms of the world are in view.

The clay in the feet and toes is brittle and this speaks of *dissidence in the extremities of the Roman Empire, which as it grew became extremely diverse with the intermingling of ethnicities, traditions, and beliefs. Rome relied heavily on military strength as per the iron with which the clay was mixed to make an inferior and progressively weakening base.  See Daniel 2.

Quote

 

 * dissidence (n.)

"difference or separation in opinion," 1650s, from Latin dissidentia "diversity, contrariety," from dissidens, present participle of dissidere "to be remote; disagree, be removed from," literally "to sit apart," from dis- "apart" (see dis-) + sedere "to sit," from PIE root *sed- (1) "to sit." [ Etymonline.com ]

 

With regard to the 10 horns both on the 4th beast in Daniel 7 and on the first beast in Revelation 13, the horns speak of enforcement with power, and the number 10 associated with these extremities foretells that enforcement will be to the full extreme of those kingdoms of the world in view, whether the Roman Empire itself, or all the subsequence world kingdoms of which Rome is a type.  

Two other examples of 10 in the Bible where fullness is evident are the 10 plagues of Egypt and the 10 Commandments written in stone by the finger of God.  

[Shilohsfoal]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

 

 

From my studies, the kingdom is the middle east, or the promised land. The area from the Eurphrates to the Nile. The 10 countries that formed after Great Britton defeated the Ottoman empire. The little horn which shares the kingdom with these ten is the country of Israel which is different. The little horn also appears to be stouter as discribed by Daniel also. The three horns plucked up by the little horn was Egypt, Syria, and Jordan which was removed from the seven heads(the seven hilled city) of Jerusalem in 1967.

It is written this kingdom(the promised land) will be destroyed and then given to the saints of God in Daniel. 

The prostitute located on this kingdom is the great city of Jerusalem. (this would stand for the people of that city and country).According to scripture this city torments those ten countries by two witnesses and those countries rise up to kill those witnesses and destroy the prostitute.

The prostitute(people of that little country) had been given an annointed king (Christ) but have chosen another. It appears they will be sealed by this king they have chosen Insted of the king which was given to them. A remnant of people who stay faithful to the annointed king are to be persecuted and rejected just as thier king was. Many of them will be put to death. After the beast is destroyed, those who remained faithful to Christ are resurrected and reign with Christ in the kingdom which was originally promised to them. No one will ever be able to take it away from them. 

About 1000 years after being given this land many countries will try to take it but they will fail. 

[Charlie744]

Shilohsfoal, thank you for the response! To be candid, I don’t believe I have heard this interpretation before... it certainly appears to be a departure from what I think most other folks believe... as I mentioned, I have yet to study Revelation. I am focusing entirely on Daniel WITHOUT relying or any verses in Revelation. 

I believe Daniel was written for the Jews first, and therefore, God would certainly ensure they would have ALL the prophetic information available to them to see Him on His first coming. The prophetic messages that would speak about those actors and events during the post crucifixion (2,000 years), would also be available, but would not be understood or purposed for Daniel. 

So, from my studies, which I can assure you are ALSO a significant departure from everyone else’s interpretation, I believe the 10 horns were present at the time of the crucifixion, as was the beast (in the form of pagan Rome). The little horn (papacy) came into power around the late 5th century, where they plucked up 3 of the 10. I think many may think of the number 10 as representing completeness but I believe it is a 10 power where 3 are removed.

Although the beast began as pagan Rome, it would come to represent all the diverse kingdoms over the next 2,000 years. Unlike the first 3 kingdoms which could be easily symbolized by a specific animal, there is no such animal on earth that could represent the terrible destruction and powers of all the kingdoms. 

Obviously, pagan Rome is gone but the beast will always be “operating” in one form or another until His second coming- but it is a secular power. Unfortunately, the little horn may change “heads”, if you will, but it will also be “operating” until the end. These actors and events are definitely represented by the 4th kingdom of Daniel’s-2, but the identification of and discussion of this 4th kingdom is to be found in Daniel 11. This is where God unpacks the 4th kingdom with the last section of 11 and all of 12 strictly speaking of the end times. 

This is why I wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts on the possible language within Daniel 7 through 12 to learn when the beast, the 10 horns and the little horn must arrive on the scene. 

This is ALL so interesting and difficult to unpack- but since Daniel must first be understood by the Jews (except for part of 11 and all of 12), we should try and also interpret Daniel without Revelation. 

Although there are perhaps 2 main interpretations on Daniel, there is no shortage of interesting comments and opinions. 

Look forward to hearing more thoughts and responses on this topic!!!

Charlie

[JoeCanada]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

 

 

 

Hi Charlie,

Brother....you are correct in saying that "without a thorough understanding of Daniel, it's difficult to get an understanding of the Book of Revelation".

The majority of Revelation is Old Testament quotes......Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Job, Daniel, Psalms etc.  

The BofR explains the 70th week of Daniel. So without knowledge of the Book of Daniel, how can one understand Rev?

I've been studying Daniel for about 7 years now. What I have found is that of the many, many commentaries out there, almost all were written before Israel became a nation in 1948....and the many that are written since 1948....most allude to the scholars who wrote prior to 1948.

Why is this significant?

Daniel has only been unsealed in the last 20 to 30 years. Basically since 1990. 

So almost all the scholars who wrote books and commentaries are Europe- centric. Everything is based on papal Rome being the end-time beast.......To which I completely disagree.

I just wrote on OP on Daniel 2-the fourth kingdom. Have a look.....tell me what you think.....leave a comment. 

I was going to follow it up with the Four Beasts of Daniel 7...... this will be a fresh perspective.