Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Charlie744]

17 minutes ago, SONshine said:

...but God’s Word/His Scripture is not secular.  Come on, Charlie...

I agree with you... and that is my point in understanding 11.... it is not a summary of some secular history involving AE or the Ptolemy empire or Berenice, etc. It is speaking about His first coming and those events and actors surrounding this very special time in history and all through the next 2,000 years... Charlie 

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I agree with the three.   ...but did you not go outside of the book of Daniel and its time period to determine the identity of the first 3 kingdoms?

 

No! There is no need to... IF Daniel was written while he was in Babylon, and it was, then we can / should be able to see / determine certainly the first two kingdoms- he was there for the first two— do you agree with that?

Now Daniel was not alive when Greece conquered the 2nd kingdom of the Medes-Persians, but we know they did conquer them, right? We don’t have to confirm this from ANY book in the NT do we? 

Consequently, we can conclude from this that AT LEAST the first 3 kingdoms of Daniel’s metal man image in chapter 2 are relevant and meaningful to ALL Jews living prior to and up to the coming of the Messiah- agree?  So when those living- let’s use Paul as an example... Paul would have definitely understood that Greece was the 3rd kingdom, right?

Meaning the book of Daniel is MEANT to be understood (so far) by Paul and his colleagues (up to the 3rd kingdom). AND Paul who was living under pagan Rome at the time would have a choice regarding who the 4th kingdom is or was- he would perhaps find it was indeed the same kingdom he was living under (Rome), or he may have come to the realization very similar to today’s accepted interpretations- post Alexander and pre-pagan Rome.... But this tells us at least three things: 1) prior to the coming Messiah we can ONLY guess what Paul thought the 4th kingdom to be, 2) that EITHER way you interpret 11 (today’s secular approach or what I am professing -a Messianic approach), chapter 11 is meant to be interpreted by Paul and those of his time. In other words, either Paul is aware of those historical events that took place BEFORE his birth (perhaps the first 28 or so verses in 11), OR, the verses in 11 apply to the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome when he is alive, And therefore, these verses are meant to a 1st century audience, and very specifically, the Jews and their coming Messiah!!!, and, 3) if we look / read the writings of the Gospels and certainly Paul’s writings, we clearly have the answer to 2) above—- In the NT Paul clearly realizes Daniel is speaking of the Messiah, His crucifixion, the rejection of Him by the Jews and so on! His writings are all about the Messiah and NOT some minor actors and events of AE or the Ptolemy’s or Berenice or Syria, etc. 

The book of Daniel has 3 separate periods or audiences to attend to - all or each is necessary to slowly move us through Daniel and through time. 

1st audience - is the period Daniel lives in and even up to Greece (Daniel does not spend much time or “ink” on Greece though...

2nd audience - this would be for the Jews of at least the 1st century. There is enough detail in Daniel for them to expect and realize the kingdom, the time, the place (along with other prophetic verses found in Isaiah or Jeremiah for example), of the coming Messiah- and they certainly were aware of His soon coming- they just could not possibly recognize Him coming in a plain manner- they were expecting a King David like figure! 

3rd audience- this would mean that Daniel speaks to another audience from His first coming through the next 2,000 years. 11:4 ends the Greek comments of the 3rd kingdom and 11:5 onward speaks about the Messiah and the actors of the 4th kingdom identified in Daniel’s chapter 2 metal man image- to His second coming.

That is a lot but that is why I would like to take 11 very slowly and verse by verse as opposed to try and argue or discuss all Daniel at once and how they may or may not “fit” with NT verses especially Revelation... 

This is why I mentioned that Daniel can and must be interpreted on its own - the Jews would not have the NT for a reference YET it must be one of Daniel’s most important audiences.

Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

34 minutes ago, SONshine said:

The Fourth Kingdom:  This is the time when desolation (spiritual death) comes upon the whole world except for those who have the seal of God in their forehead. 

Daniel 7:21-28

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

 

Thank you again SONshine... all terrific verses but if we might slow this down a little bit and discuss just who and why is this 4th kingdom?

Charlie 

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Charlie, If we continued this discussion regarding the 4th kingdom, I’m pretty sure we would not agree.  You say it’s Rome; I say it’s what Daniel said in 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.  I’m convinced.

God bless you in your studies.

SONshine, I sincerely want to thank you very much for taking the time and consideration in responding to this very, very difficult chapter in Daniel. There have been a lot of views but very few responses....... I am quite sure this is the result of most have accepted and are convinced that today's interpretations are quite accurate, and / or my responses are simply inadequate, and I have continued to fail in my delivery (especially since this is a new approach).

So, if you decide you might like to comment sometime later...... whenever, I would certainly welcome your post...... and I do apologize for causing you any discomfort with my thoughts or responses.

Thank you again and best wishes always, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, SONshine said:

Greetings, you (bro Charlie) 

It’s your fault .  ...yep, it’s your fault that I couldn’t sleep last night. (just kidding)

I’ve got a question for you.  Are you trying to prove ‘the Messiah’ by using only the book of Daniel?

 

I am going to have to say a big NO to that..... it is that Daniel 11 has been grossly misinterpreted and has failed to reveal its intended prophetic message - that is it!

I would ask if you would go to Daniel 2 and consider those verses that are meant to identify and speak about the 4th kingdom..... 

Just considering chapter 2, what do those verses try and tell us who the 4th kingdom is?

Charlie

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

52 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Well one thing for sure, the 4th kingdom is going to be destroyed by the stone that is cut out of the mountain without hands, Jesus Christ.

I certainly agree with that! But that happens st the end of the age / times with His second coming.

After the 3rd kingdom of Greece comes this 4th kingdom.... For me this is clearly pagan Rome.

So, pagan Rome or this “beast” as it is called in chapter 7 must come after Greece AND continue on (but in many different forms) until He returns- some 2,000 years. 

Consequently, there is a lot of activity that takes place within this long period. 

So, the real question is not who this 4th kingdom is but exactly WHEN it arrives and what verses in 11 are talking about- who and what period are these verses applicable to?

In my recent response, I stated the verses in 11 have been written to people living in 3 different time periods. 

And if you were to take the characteristics and practices of this 4th kingdom that are mentioned in 2, 7 & 8 they will assist us in unpacking just who, what and when the verses in 11 speak about.

Remember, Daniel is a prophetic book and as we move through the chapters in Daniel we find he is given further information on those images and symbols mentioned in early chapters. 

We are quite familiar with God’s method of expand and enlarge. Meaning, He is expanding our knowledge of the actors and events for the 4th kingdom from 2,7 & 8 within chapter 11 and 12. 

The chapters prior to 11 have not “opened up or enlarged” our understanding of the 4th kingdom so it MUST happen in these last two chapters and cover some 2,000 years - and it does! 

So the key to 11 is to identify who are the actors that must be understood (from 2,7 & 8), and then what time period the verses they belong to... but once you know the actors you will also be able to place them in the appropriate time period and match them to the verses in 11. 

That is why I asked you if f you would not mind identifying the actors / events found in chapter 2 - to start... and slowly move through Daniel but just focused on this 4th kingdom. 

SONShine, chapter 11 is a MONSTER and THE most difficult chapter to interpret- it is IMPOSSIBLE to interpret 11 in a secular manner- today’s accepted interpretations...they may seem to match some actors and events in our history books but it fails miserably as we move through 11. 

If we step back and ask ourselves just what or why is God having Daniel write this book I think everyone would agree it is NOT to serve as a history lesson for us, and where the most important kingdom (4th) where the most important actors and events will EVER happen are not to be addressed / mentioned / interpreted / prophecized, etc. 

Do we really accept that MOST of 11 is about a few minor actors and conflicts BEFORE the 4th kingdom arrives, and ignores the Messiah, His rejection from His people, the coming little horn, the transition from pagan to papal Rome and ALL the blasphemous acts he would do and enforce and also corrupt God’s Word over the next 2,000 years? 

If these are not discussed or revealed in Daniel’s last two chapters then where are discussed?  

Unless we are willing to see if 11 and 12 might be interpreted in a “Messianic/ His Plan of Salvation” manner and not try to interpret or match 11 to our history books, we will never see HIS prophetic message in Daniel for this 4th kingdom... and this has a strong effect on how we interpret Revelation (which is also a mess).

Since there are only a couple of folks here that are responding (and mostly yourself thank you!), you might want to walk through this 4th kingdom in Daniel one question at a time... 

Thanks again and Happy Sabbath, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Charlie, would you mind filling in the blanks of the characters and/or give us your interpretation of chapter 11?  Then perhaps we can discuss?

SONshine, I will be happy to discuss 11 with you or anyone but I just want to remind you of my posts throughout the past 2 months are fairly clear...... (hopefully).

In any event. chapter 2 shows the 4th kingdom as the legs of iron and feet and toes of iron and clay. This kingdom comes after Greece and is the last kingdom on earth prior to HIS second coming (stone will destroy this entire image of Daniel 2).

So, we have more than a few actors in this final kingdom to identify, but at this time we might agree that we only have two identified. These two easily actors actually "bracket" this 4th kingdom ----

If the "beast" is the first actor we can identify and the "Stone" is the last actor we can easily identify (second coming of Jesus), we now know this 4th kingdom must also exist for some 2,000 years or so. So within this "bracket" we also find we need to identify: the toes, the reason for the change from all iron (legs) to the feet and toes of iron and clay. Also, it is important to keep in mind the 10 toes .... these are important as well.

So, before we move on the chapter 7 where Daniel gives us a different set of symbols, I would ask if you might let me know if this image in chapter 2 tells us anything more about the 4th kingdom OR I left something out that does require us to address  - BUT YOU CAN NOT CHEAT AND GO TO CHAPTER 7 ...... 

Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Okay, here we go ...

Daniel 2:34 "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

So that stone hit the image right in it's feet, the weakest place.

The 10 toes are the 10-king kingdom of the end times—the New World Order. 

Thank you SONshine ! First, if you do not mind, you have this Stone correct in that it represents Jesus at the end of time and He will destroy all man’s kingdoms. But there is nothing in chapter 2 that speaks of a NWO— IF that is true then it MUST be determined somewhere beyond chapter 2 and maybe even from verses in Revelation. So, this you do not know... at this time.

3 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Daniel 2:41 "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay."

The feet and toes of the latter day image are made up of a mixture of a brittle clay (potters clay) and strong iron. They just don't mix. The reason this divided Kingdom has 10 parts is that it's political. It's the political system spoken of in Revelation 13.

You are right in that the iron and clay can not mix ... what is telling you this is “of a later day image”? I can not see that here in chapter 2... Also, what in this chapter is telling you it is “political”? And remember, you can not access Revelation or any other chapter in Daniel at this time. 

3 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Part of those Kingdoms will be strong, and part will be weak.  It’s the One World System.

Again, this information is not found in chapter 2... you are bringing in interpretations perhaps from Revelation... we are only reading chapter 2 as though it was just given to us... 

3 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Daniel 2:42 "And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."

Daniel 2:43 "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

So here we begin to learn this 4th kingdom will develop problems within its structure. The legs of iron are in or at the beginning of this kingdom- terribly strong and can withstand just about anything one could throw at it.  If we assume it represents Rome then it makes sense - Rome certainly used iron extensively, their two iron legs represent at least two things: they would “walk” over all the known world conquering everyone and their iron legs would crush them without any feeling whatsoever.. they would and did just use those powerful iron legs to stamp down on everything and everyone... 

But this can not last... as time moves on (still pagan Rome) we see in this chapter these iron legs will end in a feet and toes mixed ... symbolizing they Rome) must be getting weak and break down- it would no longer have a pure iron empire.

So, of the characteristics given in chapter 2, the “bracket” mentioned above, the understanding that the 3rd kingdom was Greece, who do you believe is this 4th kingdom?

And we still have no idea who the 10 toes are... it is not there yet.

Please let me know if this makes any sense to you and please offer your thoughts and questions before chapter 7. 

Charlie

[Charlie744]

20 hours ago, SONshine said:

Okay, here we go ...

Daniel 2:34 "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

So that stone hit the image right in it's feet, the weakest place.

The 10 toes are the 10-king kingdom of the end times—the New World Order. 

Daniel 2:41 "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay."

The feet and toes of the latter day image are made up of a mixture of a brittle clay (potters clay) and strong iron. They just don't mix. The reason this divided Kingdom has 10 parts is that it's political. It's the political system spoken of in Revelation 13.

Part of those Kingdoms will be strong, and part will be weak.  It’s the One World System.

Daniel 2:42 "And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."

Daniel 2:43 "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

SONshine, I believe I must apologize once again. You were kind enough to return to this discussion knowing you have firm believes with Daniel, and especially with Daniel 11. I believe my last response to your post (the one above) may have done more damage than good..... I suspect it was confusing.  i would like another chance to respond to your post and try and be clearer and more concise where, even if you don't agree with my conclusions, you will have a better understanding of the "approach".... and that is what brought me to these conclusions.

So, in response to your post above:

1) I would ask that you read and interpret Daniel 2 as though you have never read or studied any other book of the Bible beyond Daniel. The purpose of this is to try and ignore all the interpretations and beliefs that have formed your thoughts on Daniel and may have possibly corrupted Daniel. Essentially, a clear slate on reading and understanding Daniel. Without honoring this approach we would constantly be forced comparing these "Daniel pure" interpretations against those we now know come from books in the NT.

2) Therefore, we find certain actors in Daniel 2 to identify and understand:

       a) who is the 4th kingdom of the metal man image,

       b) the change from 100 % iron legs to a mix of iron and clay in the feet and the toes,

       c) who are the 1o toes,

       d) who is the "Stone",

      e) can we identify a time or period associated with this 4th kingdom.

 

So this might be a more concise list of actors and issues to take away form Daniel 2 with a focus largely on the 4th kingdom. 

Without any other interpretations from later chapters in Daniel or other books of the Bible, we should be able to get some good understanding regarding this 4th kingdom.... we will NOT be able to get ALL the answers but this is necessary as well.

If you are still willing and interested, would you mind using the above information (a through e) above and offer your thoughts on them / their identity?   

Thank you and I look forward to your response..... or anyone who cares to weigh in.... I am sure I will be leaving some things out or miss some actors or events within each "carve out verses"..... Charlie

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, SONshine said:

For me, it is impossible to do what you’re asking.  Charlie, I can’t erase my knowledge of the rest of God’s Word, and truly, I don’t believe He wants me to set aside anything He has already taught me.  I’m sorry I can’t help you.  Love ya anyway, brother.

Thank you very much for your candor and I greatly appreciate you responding...

I certainly understand your position... it is terribly difficult to try and unlearn things that are so important and where they are such a enjoyable part of your relationship with God.

Well, on to many other topics and please don’t stop offering your thoughts and opinions! Thanks again, Charlie