3rd Temple.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

I've already covered this. There are two ways to read prophesies regarding a "temple." The first is to understand there was a temple standing either at the time or subsequent to the prophesy being proclaimed and the second is to understand the body of Christ as the temple God built. There is therefore no reason to speculate some other physical temple of stone. It is inferential speculation!!!!! Or..... It is speculative inference!!!!! What it is not is sound exegesis. 

 

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),"

"So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be"

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

Both Matt and Mark imply there will a place for the A of D to be placed: where it ought not, and the holy place.

Paul states the man of lawlessness will sit in the Temple of God near to the time of the return of Jesus and the gathering.

The holy place is an area inside the Temple.

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God" is plain language. 

Of course it's inferred. If you need a direct statement to the effect, "The Jews will rebuild Solomon's Temple on the old Roman fort in the days immediately before the Lord makes his return, I have spoken." Then you do everyone a disservice, including yourself.

Invalidating inference would render a near catatonic state in any endeavor. Inference is a valid form of reasoning. Your reliance on this accusatory tactic is unbecoming.

"I need a direct statement those cars are going to stop for a red light."

Ludicrous.

 

 

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

What does scripture teach you is an "abomination"? What does scripture teach you is "desolation"? What does scripture teach you is an "abomination of desolation"? Don't tell me what 21st century future-temple-ists teach. Tell me what scripture itself teaches on these matters. 

No, no, no. "As spoken of by Daniel the prophet." Chapters 9,11 and 12. That's the only understanding. The Jewish Encyclopedia records the actual act by Antiochus IV as prophesied in Dan 9 which occurred in 167 BC.

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

If the posts will not be kept about the posts and not the posters the posts will be ignored. Resorting to insinuation is not a reasonable, rational, nor exegetical case for or against anything. 

Questioning a person's understanding is too much? You take sideways jabs all the time. Unless people agree with you it's "What it is not is sound exegesis." calling into question a person's work, understanding and abilities, even implying agenda.

So...welcome to the sharp edge.

[Diaste]

On 1/27/2021 at 7:19 PM, JoeCanada said:

So...you send me off on some fork in the road (which I am not taking), I'll ask you this:(while I wait for a proper response to my last post)

Are you suggesting that Christians, which scripture says are the temple of God (I agree) will host the man of lawlessness in their physical bodies? 

"so that he takes his seat in the temple of God......"

I have asked that question as well. No response.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Last days of what?

End of what age?

I would have to redo the research to provide the reasoning but the gist of it ensues:

Last days refers to the self governance of mankind over the earth. Some think it's all a trial period where we are tested every day regarding behavior.

I see it a gift given to us and we failed, and fail, to be grateful and obedient and instead chase after our lusts. The last days are marked by the revealing of the reality of Jesus and the truth that was there all along; and His shed blood for the covering of the sins of the world, and the Ascension of Christ assuring our resurrection in the days to come. 

The end of the age is the end of the self governance where our Father will plead with all mankind one last time before eternity future.

The last days end at the 'day' of the Lord and the end of the age is within the last days at a yet to be revealed time.

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

And yet Paul quite plainly said, "...the ends of the ages have come." (1 Cor. 10:11). 

 

You didn't actually read all of my post, did you? If the post was read then so was the scripture I provided. If read then the ends of the ages having come was read. If it was read, how then can you now say the complete exact opposite of what the scriptures state? 

 

You say Peter was speaking about the last days but not the end of the age, and you often argue the things you believe as part of your eschatology. Do you know what the word "eschatology" or "eschaton" means? In 1 Peter 1:20 he says Jesus was revealed in the "last times". The Greek used is "eschatou chronōn". You'll note the word he used is the very word we now in modern times use for our doctrine(s) of the end times or more formerly, eschatology, the doctrine of the end, or sometimes defined as the doctrine of last things. Since I have shown you (only a sampling of) how the New Testament writers spoke explicitly about their living in the last days AND the end of the ages, how then do you divide the two and argue one without the other? 

I addressed that in the context of Paul's arguments from 1 Cor 10. It's also addressed from the pov of the eternal. Paul isn't saying the physical end of age the has come, he can't be. Nothing had changed from the time Jesus ascended. What has changed is the nature of the relationship between God and mankind marking the last days. The end of worlds, or fulfillment of ages, or the end of the age is come upon those who where examples. The totality is waiting, the assurance of the fact it's coming isn't.

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

And what does this have to do with proving a red heifer or another temple is a fulfillment of prophesy? How does any of this address the issue of our not looking back to old Jewish ways when in undeniable point of fact red heifers, animal sacrifices, the old Law, and another stone temple are in fact old Jewish ways? Why aren't you dealing with the salient matters? Why are you bringing up things that don't have anything directly to do with red heifers, animal sacrifices, stone temples, or the scriptural admonition not to turn back?

I agree here but you are misunderstanding and advancing arguments I did not make. In no way do I think we should look back. Christ is risen and our hope is the future and the promises of God. There is no looking back for me and no one else should be either. I don't believe in that, Jesus calls those that do unworthy, and in a practical sense what hope is there is a dead past? 

As I have said before I know we are the temple of the Most High God and His spirit dwells within us. For all born of the spirit this is true. Stone temples and stone tablets have nothing whatsoever to do with our relationship to our Father in Christ Jesus. Nothing. Any Christian who says differently is likely not walking in the truth of the Spirit.

 But that doesn't follow for Jews. To say the truth in Christ is a must for the whole of the earth because it is true for part of the earth is a fallacy of composition. While I agree it is the overriding truth of the universe and it should the truth that emanates from the lips of every man, woman and child, it's just not the case.

What the Jews do in regards to the Temple is not affective or effective in the promotion or abrogation of the truth in our Savior. A stone Temple will not change that truth in any way. In fact a Temple ostensibly to the Most High is a vicious affront to our Father. Sadly this is exactly it's purpose, offense; first to God and then as will be evident, the Jews.

The stone Temple will be the stage for the last act of rebellion of the Jews against God and the portend of their doom. That is the truth of the stone Temple.

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yeah, you need to look deeper at your own views. You may not be saying in words, "We need to look back," but the practice of anticipating and constantly posting about the re-institutionalization of Old Testament ways not even modern Jews practice is looking back. It is looking backward in deed even if it isn't worded that way. 

Looks like a duck. Walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. 

Probably a duck. 

Without looking it up, do you know what prophesy says about far-distant-future red heifers? 

Oy...This is going nowhere. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Nothing changed.... but something changed. 

What do you mean by "physical end of age"? That term is not found anywhere in scripture. Why is it being added. An "age" is a measure of time, not something physical, so why is something nowhere stated in scripture being added to scripture? Why are the terms scripture uses not being defined by scripture and used as scripture defines them. 

Do you thin that might be related to the problem of each generation believing they are the last (which is true only of futurists) and the appraisal, "Yep. And the end is coming every 5 years, and the Rapture is coming next week; nonstop since the 1st century. That means none of what the people say about the end is accurate."? 

What Paul wrote is plainly stated. He is writing to believers about conditions those believers were experiencing at the time he wrote them and it is within that context he said, "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

The ends of the ages had come upon them. It doesn't mean the end had ended. Nor does it mean the end has ended. But it most definitely means the end had come. 

Okay. This looks like the point where there would be a divergence from understanding to word studies. While I accept defining terms as proper and logical when required I'm usually don't take the leap from this precipice.

For me this vein is played out.

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Got scripture for that?

Nothing you would accept.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

That has demonstrably been proven incorrect with clearly stated statements in scripture that had nothing added to or subtracted from them. Paul quite clearly stated the ends of the ages had come upon his Corinthians readers. How is it you do not believe those words?

The problem many experience is thinking the truth is but a single passage.  There are dozens of relevant passages for this laying out the concepts; passages across many written works spanning millennia. 

I take every word in scripture as inspired truth. Every word. Not some, all. So truth is truth in the Word and no truth is elevated over, or subjugated by, another truth. There are no peaks and valleys of truth, no truth subordinate to another truth; all truth enjoys the same status, "Thy Word is Truth".

All the inspired words must align sans contradiction, subordination, cancelation and infighting for supremacy, with the Word itself. In every case all relevant scripture must give it's account in sculpting the visionary masterpiece of the Master's hand.

Once all the evidence is gathered the concepts become clear. This is what is referred to in the word; "Get wisdom and knowledge, but in all your getting, get understanding."

Without understanding the concepts we do not have the truth. I see lots of wisdom and knowledge in this forum.

The word kills, the Spirit gives life. 

I spent too long in churches watching people build fiction from single passages and verses. It happens all the time and I reject it. 

I think this is why we are getting no where. 

 

[Alive]

Please do not resort to addressing an individuals faults if perceived. Stick to addressing the points made alone.

Thank you.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Cop outs. 

I have stated my case. You reject it. Rejoice.

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

You started this conversation. Rising to the task  is not happening and in the end others are scapegoated within the lack of cogent response. 

It's a conversation not competition

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

This op is about some purported "news" "about Israel and the temple," and the reports the latter will be completed in 12 months and the temple instruments and a red heifer are being prepared. There is supposed to be some prophetic significance to all this. After all, this is the prophesy board.

Not in the least. I addressed news reports about a topic from the region of origin.

Not a single claim was made other than what is reported others are thing and doing and claiming.

On 1/25/2021 at 7:28 AM, Diaste said:

Recent news about Israel and the Temple shows the push to begin construction gaining steam even with Arab nations.

I read the construction could be completed in 12 months. 

For some time now all the instruments, furniture, vessels and other trappings for the required rituals have been on hand.

Even now the red heifer is being bred in Israel. 

Rumor is there is an existing secret agreement with the Palestinians for peace. Not sure if that would be a requirement or not, but it is interesting.

Times are changing

You turned a chance at bonding and discussion into a personal crusade. Again, rejoice.

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

A single two-word question was asked of this opening post and now, after seventeen pages worth of posts, that question still remains unanswered. It has been acknowledged there isn't a single verse in the entire Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built. It has been acknowledged the entire belief is solely inferential. It has been acknowledged in all mentions of a temple in prophesy there is either a temple either currently then standing or one standing later in scripture so there is no need to look for another. It has been acknowledged temples and church building as built nearly every day and none of them fulfill prophesy. It has been acknowledged there is a 100% fail rate of imminent-rapturists and end-times prognosticators. 

 

Your shield wall.