Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, clancy said:

Can you explain what you mean...I have edited the rest of this sentence...what are you saying here?

It's simple and not complicated.

Every Christian group or denomination or any group within the denomination is allowed to have and must have their particular set of beliefs and requirements to accept someone as a member to official represent the group and allowed to be their representative in evangelism and scripture teaching.  

This is the Gospel according to their group.

To be a member of their church do not teach anything contrary.

Jesus Christ died and raised from the dead and faith in him was preached before any group was formed. 

He comes before any group was form.

Belief in him is accepted outside any group. 

As Jesus Christ taught us in the episode of Philip and the Ethiopian man. Who asked Philip to be his witness that he has forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ, that in Jesus Christ he is a new creation. 

In him and not anymore in the old.

A witness to Philip who could not see his faith in his heart.

But not to Jesus Christ who can see his faith in him in his heart.

**Are you worrying who is going to buried you when you died. You should not. 

Do you want someone to blessed your corpse, then Joint their group. 

That's what you want but do not Judged all the others who died before the group was formed. 

And those who were burned or fed to the Lions because of their obedience to the faith of Jesus Christ till the end.

Who are the witness against the beliefs as to what happens after we depart of this body. 

Be of good cheers when you depart from this body.

Do not grieve be glad. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Charlie744]

31 minutes ago, Starise said:

 Who added OSAS into this? Like this thread wasn't long enough already

For the sake of my own brain I'm attempting to condense these thoughts. 

I think we can all safely agree baptism DOES NOT SAVE a man. 

Then we part ways. Group A. Baptism really means nothing so I'm not about to do it. Baptism basically disappeared.

Group B. Baptism is tied to obedience to scripture and as an outward symbolic act. I believe there is plenty of scriptural support for this idea and almost nothing to support idea A.

If you're in group A I still consider you a brother. To be clear, I am not waffling on my stance of it. I am solidly in group B.

We all have biases. I was raised in a Baptist church all my life where this was taught. Am I biased? I don't think so. You might think so from the outside looking in. Were you not exposed to baptism in any way shape or form? If so then I would expect a person in this category might need a little more convincing, especially if your present church doesn't teach it. The church I now attend has the Lord's table at least every month, but hasn't had a baptism in a year. They are Presbyterian and I think since there are members here in disagreement with infant baptism (including me) they avoid it except  on special occasions. I don't make a big deal about it or create a "stink", but we went through their new members class and they know what I believe. Neither did they deny me membership because of it. I wondered if someone came to them wanting to be immersed would they do it?

As I see this, the big question is probably, How strongly do you feel baptism is an act of open symbolic obedience to Christ? If you are doubtful I would suggest maybe it's better to be safe than sorry.  On the other hand, if it means absolutely nothing to you and you will not be convinced that it's an act of obedience, then there's nothing I'm going to try to do to change your mind. If God saved you, He will lead you to the correct answers if you truly want them. I believe there is simply too much in the Bible to deny the reality of baptism right along with the Lord's table.

After reading the thread I predict no one is going to change anything lol.

Starise, very nice thoughts indeed. And if you do not mind I would like to try and continue in your line of reasoning:

We have group A who believe in WB, 

We have group B who do not believe in WB, 

We have group C who believe in being baptized in the HS,

We have group D who do not believe in being baptized in the HS, 

We have group E who believe in both WB and HS, 

We have group F who believe in neither WB or HS, 

We have group G who believe in WB with sprinkling of water only,

We have group H who believe in WB with partial immersion allowed,

We have group I who believe in WB by full immersion only, 

We have group J who believe in WB in order to be a member of their church, 

We have group K who believe in WB and all those who do not are not saved,

We have group L who believe in WB and HS but any one of them is acceptable, 

We have group M who believe in WB but only when one is naked,

We have group N who don’t care but want to see group M whenever there is a baptism, 

We have group O who believe being baptized in the HS but this requires speaking in tongues, 

We have group P who believes in being baptized in the HS but doesn’t mind watching group M,

We have group Q who believe the same as group P but doesn’t believe want group those perverts in group N to attend, 

We have group R who believe the same as group M and believe they should video the baptism, 

We have group S who believe group M should speak in tongues while being baptized and serve Sunday meals after service, 

Now, I think we can all agree this list is not complete but it  is a start!

 I propose each of us take a few hundred thousand people in their immediate area and poll them to determine the group they fall into to. Then return and consolidate all the findings into a very concise chart... after careful review and consideration......

..... we set up group AA for those who believe the findings should be made available to the WB folks, 

..... we set up group AB who for those who believe the findings should be made available to the HS folks,

........   

........

So with all due respect @Starise

I believe we may have something here and just might change some things... don’t you agree? 

We will get to the bottom of this I am sure... 

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Gosh, there has been so much written from both sides...... but the good news we are all on the same team!  I personally do not believe that anyone will lose their salvation if they are baptized in water - partial or full immersion. This is one of OUR interpretations in following Jesus. If we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior and His Holy Spirit, we are good to go..... some of us maybe "dryer" than the other, but we will all be together with Him.

Please forgive me for repeating myself ---- it is in regard to the question of what is the definition of a soul= 2 or 3 parts, do we have a soul, does the soul or spirit immediately go to heaven at death or is there a "soul sleep".

I would like to try and bring my thoughts on "what is a soul" into this discussion if  I may.... 

I have mentioned that Gen. 2:7 gives us the definition of man / Adam. We are made of two parts - dust of the earth and God's breathing into this formed dust. However, I am not sure there are more than ......1 (me) that believes this "God's breathing into Adam" is NOT air but His Holy Spirit (He did not give air to any thing else He created in this manner). This was special and I believe this created Adam in a HOLY Spirit type way.

Unfortunately, Adam sinned and, my opinion, he lost this special gift - this Holy Spirit like shroud. He was now mortal and could no longer be in the presence of God - he was kicked out of the Garden.

Now in addition to God imparting His Holy Spirit into Adam, we also are aware that Adam had NO  part in 1) his own creation, and 2) the HS being given within him. This of course tells me that it is consistent with all the Scriptures to follow where God reminds us that everything comes from, is given to and continues by God ALONE  - SO THAT NO MAN SHALL BOAST..... We must acknowledge HIM in everything under the sun. 

So we have in the beginning Adam's creation with His Holy Spirit dwelling inside him.. He loses the latter and it is now necessary for Adam to somehow restore that Holy Spirit in order to get back with HIm in heaven.... without this, he will surely die - second death.

There is ONLY ONE way we (Adam) can restore the HS back into us and that of course is by accepting the HS which was offered to us at Pentecost. Therefore, in keeping with what God had done in the Garden and what we (Adam) had done to lose the HS in the Garden, we have to accept HIS GIFT THIS ONE TIME AND ONE TIME ONLY. Meaning, our being baptized in HIS HS is a gift for our restoration  / our salvation and there is NOTHING we can do or think we should do to add to this opportunity from God to restore our HS.  

Therefore, we will come full circle.... no water baptism is required, necessary or will add one iota to our salvation.... it will be restored exactly as in the beginning - with NO help or assistance or outside ritual to be considered. God will do this..... so that NO man can boast. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie

Oh forgot.... and we can easily see today just how many denominations insist, require their members are water baptized - some in order to be a member of that church, others say it is necessary to be saved, so on and on.... Man has and is using WB as a requirement (fence to get in), or they may boast they insist their members be WB and have the "truth" for salvation, but all of this is something that man "adds to God's Plan"..... He did not include in His offering of the HS.... "just add water" and you will be saved...... The Pharisees were proficient at putting up fences for their congregation and we are simply no different.  

Think in terms of how the Creator was when he created man.

Who made man after him and put him in the body.

And he said to himself one day I will also be found in the same body.

Do you learn something from that, can you see that we are the same as he was when he was born that he called us brothers. 

Why he call us brothers? Because he is like us when he was in the body and we are like him when we are not in the body. 

He lived without a body as God the Creator, till his birth in Bethlehem. 

Since that time he only lived without his body for only three days.

And he is stuck to his body forever.

But we started with a body and we finish without a body as he was when he Created man in the Garden. 

He started without a body and he ended up with a body forever. 

We started being like him at the time of the creation but in the body.

And we end being on heaven with him the way he was at the time of creation without a body.  

We switch places.

Him in a body, and us without the body and like him at the time of creation.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

Charlie you are a blast lol !

I can't really deny any of it so far as the complications people add into the whole thing. In every case let the Bible be our guide.

If I were going to directly address each division you've made( I wish I could but this isn't my only gig today), I would only say more study is involved to individually address each thing. What study?

1st study- The Holy Spirit. When does the Holy Spirit fill a person who accepts Christ? Is this dependent in any way on baptism? If it is, how so- NOT AN OPINION WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?  LOTS of things are said and claimed about the HS that are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. I believe the moment we are saved the HS starts t0 work on us. The HS might actually lead a person to decide to get baptized.

I was attempting to NARROW this down. All of those other smaller issues are not as important as the main ones.

MUCH of what people believe simply isn't in the bible at all, i.e. infant baptism. Even sprinkling isn't mentioned while immersion IS mentioned. 

If it isn't in the Bible why are we even talking about it? 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, Starise said:

Charlie you are a blast lol !

I can't really deny any of it so far as the complications people add into the whole thing. In every case let the Bible be our guide.

If I were going to directly address each division you've made( I wish I could but this isn't my only gig today), I would only say more study is involved to individually address each thing. What study?

1st study- The Holy Spirit. When does the Holy Spirit fill a person who accepts Christ? Is this dependent in any way on baptism? If it is, how so- NOT AN OPINION WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?  LOTS of things are said and claimed about the HS that are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. I believe the moment we are saved the HS starts t0 work on us. The HS might actually lead a person to decide to get baptized.

I was attempting to NARROW this down. All of those other smaller issues are not as important as the main ones.

MUCH of what people believe simply isn't in the bible at all, i.e. infant baptism. Even sprinkling isn't mentioned while immersion IS mentioned. 

If it isn't in the Bible why are we even talking about it? 

Starise, that was very nice and I can not see anyone disagreeing with your comments.

Now, if I read your response correctly, I’m going to pencil you in for group E... you should fit in nicely with those folks. But if I may suggest that before you commit to group E you might want to consider group M - very fun group and I understand they will soon be serving lunch after services!!!

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

[David1701]

13 hours ago, Waggles said:

Wrong wrong wrong - if we have faith and believe then we do it God's way - and the scriptures clearly inform us how real Christians in scripture were obedient to the commandments of God. 

Yes, of course.  Christians are to be obedient and get baptised in water.  What, in my post, caused you to think that I would disagree with this?

 

Quote

As for your verse 37 that is considered a deliberate interpolation by a scribe - it is not God inspired text - same with the KJV version of 1John 5:7 

Many sceptical textual critics do not believe that Acts 8:37 is genuine Scripture; but, there are some textual critics, who believe that God, in his providence, gave the Reformers sound, highly reliable texts from which to translate. I side with this group.

Here is a link to an article from the Trinitarian Bible Society about the matter.

https://www.tbsbibles.org/resource/collection/156A9AA2-2086-4C4E-BE0A-08A4508415DA/Notes-on-Acts-8-37.pdf

Incidentally, there is a lot more evidence for the genuineness of 1 John 5:7 than you might think (I'm not KJO, before you say anything).

Quote

 

the correct wording from the original Greek is:

Acts 8:35  And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this scripture, preached the gospel to him, Jesus. 
8:36  And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Lo, water; what hindereth me to be baptized? 
8:38  And he commanded to stop the chariot; and both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 

 

So, the Eunuch's question goes unanswered, and we are left none the wiser.  I don't think so...

Quote

Philip preached the gospel of salvation to the eunuch and what did he do? He believed, he repented, he got water baptised - to receive salvation in Christ Jesus. The gospel of salvation is a mutual obligation covenant. 

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, then you get baptised in water.

[Starise]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Starise, that was very nice and I can not see anyone disagreeing with your comments.

Now, if I read your response correctly, I’m going to pencil you in for group E... you should fit in nicely with those folks. But if I may suggest that before you commit to group E you might want to consider group M - very fun group and I understand they will soon be serving lunch after services!!!

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

Definitely not in group M Charlie. The HS isn't something magical that only happens when we are baptized. 

I am thinking we might be slightly over complicating the issue. But that's me.

 I would say stop kicking the resistance and just go do it. You live around here? I have a pool. Takes about 30 seconds. What's the big deal here? 

Were you one of those kids who fought your mum at bath time?

 

[David1701]

5 minutes ago, Starise said:

Definitely not in group M Charlie. The HS isn't something magical that only happens when we are baptized. 

I am thinking we might be slightly over complicating the issue. But that's me.

 I would say stop kicking the resistance and just go do it. You live around here? I have a pool. Takes about 30 seconds. What's the big deal here? 

Were you one of those kids who fought your mum at bath time?

 

Good post; and that last sentence is hilarious (I think I might borrow it, if the opportunity arises ).

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

Definitely not in group M Charlie. The HS isn't something magical that only happens when we are baptized. 

I am thinking we might be slightly over complicating the issue. But that's me.

 I would say stop kicking the resistance and just go do it. You live around here? I have a pool. Takes about 30 seconds. What's the big deal here? 

Were you one of those kids who fought your mum at bath time?

 

First, please accept my sincere apologies... I thought you were a female... and did not confirm or look into that before my last post (which of course was in jest... but a female jest). That is a whole other group that I will not bring up .... nope, not going to happen.

Well I am going to have to confess.... you just happen to hit the nail right on the head.... Yes, as a matter of fact I was one of those kids who fought my mother at bath time..... she was trying to drown me! Since then... no water of any kind!

Best wishes, and again, sorry for the group M reference, Charlie

[Eternally Gratefull]

10 hours ago, Waggles said:

Water baptism is not done to earn salvation - one undergoes water baptism because God wants us to do this

Then water baptism has no bearing on ones eternal salvation. Which means it is not required to be saved.

 

You cant have it both ways.