Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[David1701]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then perhaps a review is in order.

What, David, is the specific or particular concern read in Justin's posts for which you'd like some curiosity satisfied? and what, Justin, - if you could put it into a single sentence or two - is your 1) point and 2) your response to David's concern? 

I've been reading some but not all of your exchange with delight, especially the recent venture regrading the inerrancy of scripture and what I assume will be an application of truth claims from scripture on your respective positions. Can't wait. Remember the op-topic , btw.

It's all over now.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/262330-does-water-baptism-precede-regeneration/?do=findComment&comment=3357346

and

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/262330-does-water-baptism-precede-regeneration/?do=findComment&comment=3357353

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by David1701

[Charlie744]

59 minutes ago, Josheb said:

@Charlie744 How'd you get the staggered "outline" style indentation? multiple indents?

I think it was drugs...  I use to put down on paper thoughts and then sub- thoughts to support them and so on..

I believe it all started from the 5 years I spent in Catholic school... 

Hope it did not bother you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

@Charlie744 How'd you get the staggered "outline" style indentation? multiple indents?

Well, to try and give you a better understanding.... 

I have always attempted to take a problem or issue and then break it down by identifying the causes / effects or reasons... depending on the complexity of the problem one maybe able to identify say 6 major causes that may be contributing to the problem. But of course this entire exercise is dynamic and it is very seldom that list remains the same as when you started. 

In any event, as one drills down deeper into each one of those causes or areas of concern you have to identify those events or causes found at this level ...

This can continue until each of the causes has been addressed and you have this “treed down” result. The deeper each cause is “treed down”, the more one understands the root causes for each level. 

The A.

            1)

                  a)

                  b)

                        1)

presentation allows me to see the problem much clearer and provides feedback and support in ensuring I have drilled down to the cellular level of the problem.

I have found this visual documentation and breakdown of a problem works for me and I can also use this to “weigh” how each cause is contributing to the overall problem and / or contributing to one of the other layers... 

It is my way of carving up a problem into its causes and then slice or carve those causes .... and so on and on. 

This process always takes a lot of time and effort but I am convinced that 90% of any problems is identifying that problem and it’s root causes. I can candidly say that MOST people do not follow such a process but usually stop at the first layer they come to... 

I think I see the exact same thing here with people’s interpretations... they may see a word - example- baptism or baptized and that confirms a certain interpretation. Drill down and maybe that one word does not have much weight in the story and can not carry the interpretation.

Sorry for the long winded response... 

Charlie

 

           

 

 

 

 

[Starise]

Hi Charlie,

I think very similar to you. My line of work has been troubleshooting problems and this is often the thought processes I use. I guess others come to the same or similar conclusions using other methods. I see it as simply a means of step by step logical analysis.

I drilled down into the Greek meanings for the word baptism as written in passages given where the meaning was in question in an earlier post. I don't know how much more "drilling" you want to do?

If we compare the meaning of the term along with the context of the word in multiple passages what else is left to do?

 

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, Starise said:

Hi Charlie,

I think very similar to you. My line of work has been troubleshooting problems and this is often the thought processes I use. I guess others come to the same or similar conclusions using other methods. I see it as simply a means of step by step logical analysis.

I drilled down into the Greek meanings for the word baptism as written in passages given where the meaning was in question in an earlier post. I don't know how much more "drilling" you want to do?

If we compare the meaning of the term along with the context of the word in multiple passages what else is left to do?

 

First of all, your first sentence tells me you have lost ALL credibility with me..... and for you to share that in this forum...... I am not sure anyone is going to take you seriously any longer.

You are right, everyone develops a "problem identification and solution process" that fits the way they see the world.... some folks may consider this the most important process of problem solving while others do not have that level of interest... 

Now I am still trying to drill down or tree down in the English language.... I do not have any nerve cells, nodes or synaptic connections whatsoever that would allow me to understand any other language.... Whatever side of the brain we use for languages, art, music, etc., can not be found in my brain..... 

I can see patterns, relationships, contradictions and differences within those and connect the dots fairly well... but Greek is simply Greek to me. To be candid, I absolutely marvel at those folks who are fluent in more than one language.... but I know it is God given.... 

There is no question that the folks who are able to understand either Greek or Hebrew or both are so fortunate and have the ability to interpret the Scriptures in a way I could not expect to.....but one has to be able to put all these Greek and / or Hebrew meanings together in a story...

I had a friend of mine who graduated from Univ. of Wisconsin (Madison) with a 4.0 GPA. His command of the written and verbal English language was off the charts. He literally had a photographic memory... if he read something it was his forever and could pull it out of his mental filing cabinet at will and with no cobwebs. He went on to study law at Univ. California, Berkeley..... one of the best Law programs in the country. He did amazingly well and was offered more than positions within some of the best legal firms on the east coast. He selected a great firm in Philadelphia but did not survive too long...He could recite the law, quote it,speak beautifully, etc., but he could not apply the law to a situation.... He was a machine, google him and you would get a hundred references to read but he could not determine which and what issues needed to be resolved and how to go about it..... 

Sorry for digressing but he came to mind after reading one of your comments..... 

As you said above, there are many tools in the tool box to use to problem solve... not everyone has the same tool box.... if you have those tools that I certainly will never own or be able to use.... use them and God bless, Charlie

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

Charlie, 

  1. Charlie, 

1. Charliee... 
   1. Charlieeee.........!!!

I am asking about the formatting of the post, not your mental faculties.  How'd you get the multiple indents and the numbers/letters outline format in you post? 

 

Oh, apparently the same way you did..... it is a manual process ..... there are no Word type functions other than the few shown at the top.....(that I am aware of), however, I have in the past prepared a response in Word and simply copy / pasted it into the response....

Charlie

[Starise]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

First of all, your first sentence tells me you have lost ALL credibility with me..... and for you to share that in this forum...... I am not sure anyone is going to take you seriously any longer.

You are right, everyone develops a "problem identification and solution process" that fits the way they see the world.... some folks may consider this the most important process of problem solving while others do not have that level of interest... 

Now I am still trying to drill down or tree down in the English language.... I do not have any nerve cells, nodes or synaptic connections whatsoever that would allow me to understand any other language.... Whatever side of the brain we use for languages, art, music, etc., can not be found in my brain..... 

I can see patterns, relationships, contradictions and differences within those and connect the dots fairly well... but Greek is simply Greek to me. To be candid, I absolutely marvel at those folks who are fluent in more than one language.... but I know it is God given.... 

There is no question that the folks who are able to understand either Greek or Hebrew or both are so fortunate and have the ability to interpret the Scriptures in a way I could not expect to.....but one has to be able to put all these Greek and / or Hebrew meanings together in a story...

I had a friend of mine who graduated from Univ. of Wisconsin (Madison) with a 4.0 GPA. His command of the written and verbal English language was off the charts. He literally had a photographic memory... if he read something it was his forever and could pull it out of his mental filing cabinet at will and with no cobwebs. He went on to study law at Univ. California, Berkeley..... one of the best Law programs in the country. He did amazingly well and was offered more than positions within some of the best legal firms on the east coast. He selected a great firm in Philadelphia but did not survive too long...He could recite the law, quote it,speak beautifully, etc., but he could not apply the law to a situation.... He was a machine, google him and you would get a hundred references to read but he could not determine which and what issues needed to be resolved and how to go about it..... 

Sorry for digressing but he came to mind after reading one of your comments..... 

As you said above, there are many tools in the tool box to use to problem solve... not everyone has the same tool box.... if you have those tools that I certainly will never own or be able to use.... use them and God bless, Charlie

 

 

 

 

Hi Charlie,

 

As Josheb said, he mainly wanted to know how you laid the indents out. I suspect you C/P something you either typed or found on the web. In any case I was merely comparing our reasoning processes so I fail to see why I have "lost credibility" with you?  Makes no logical sense.

I'm not going to sling poo back at you because then were would we be here? My credibility is what it is which happens to be pretty high with almost everyone I come into contact with in the real world. 

Why have I supposedly lost credibility when all I have done is to agree with you on your thought processes? Even while I might disagree with you on your conclusions. Charlie are you getting enough rest?

 

 

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

Charlie, 

1. Charlie, 
   1. Charliee... 
      1. Charlieeee.........!!!

I am asking about the formatting of the post, not your mental faculties.  How'd you get the multiple indents and the numbers/letters outline format in you post? 

 

By the way, now I know what it feels like to have Elon Musk call me over...... and ask me to get him a cup of coffee.......

It's all good though   Charlie

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, Starise said:

Hi Charlie,

 

As Josheb said, he mainly wanted to know how you laid the indents out. I suspect you C/P something you either typed or found on the web. In any case I was merely comparing our reasoning processes so I fail to see why I have "lost credibility" with you?  Makes no logical sense.

I'm not going to sling poo back at you because then were would we be here? My credibility is what it is which happens to be pretty high with almost everyone I come into contact with in the real world. 

Why have I supposedly lost credibility when all I have done is to agree with you on your thought processes? Even while I might disagree with you on your conclusions. Charlie are you getting enough rest?

 

 

NO..... I am so sorry.... I have to remember to put emoji's when I attempt to make a joke.....

I was referring to your comment, "you think in a way similar to me" ..... my response was to essentially say.... boy are you in trouble then.... and you lost all credibility with me........ Please tell me you see it now..... 

I will now continue on with your response but I was shaken when I saw how you received it..... so, so sorry, Charlie

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, Starise said:

Hi Charlie,

 

As Josheb said, he mainly wanted to know how you laid the indents out. I suspect you C/P something you either typed or found on the web. In any case I was merely comparing our reasoning processes so I fail to see why I have "lost credibility" with you?  Makes no logical sense.

I'm not going to sling poo back at you because then were would we be here? My credibility is what it is which happens to be pretty high with almost everyone I come into contact with in the real world. 

Why have I supposedly lost credibility when all I have done is to agree with you on your thought processes? Even while I might disagree with you on your conclusions. Charlie are you getting enough rest?

 

 

Ok, I just finished reading your response and YOU WOULD HAVE EVERY REASON TO RESPOND AS YOU DID BUT PLEASE UNDERSTAND I WAS ATTEMPTING TO MAKE FUN OF MYSELF BY SAYING IF YOU THINK YOU THINK LIKE I DO........ THEN YOU HAVE PROBLEMS....

Please respond back as soon as you like .... I do not want another night of "water boarding"..... Charlie