Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Charlie744]

15 minutes ago, Waggles said:

why do people keep on reinventing Christian doctrine?

Water baptism is the only sacrament kept by various churches from the very beginning: Roman, Orthodox and Protestant.

Alright infant "baptism" came about, most likely in response to the bubonic plagues (where one-third of Europe's population died), but it is still a continuation of the doctrine of water baptism from the Apostolic age. 

Now out of nowhere modern churches are claiming that they can do away with water baptism as it is no longer necessary.

Did anyone bother to check this out with God and to seek his approval of such? I think not. 

Galatians 5:7  You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 
8  This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 
9  A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 

2Corinthians 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Now wait a minute here! You think because a practice or a tradition goes back years to even the beginning of the RCC (~500 AD or so) that it certifies or makes it a required / Holy / Scriptural / must be right since it is that old practice in the Christian faith?

First and foremost is this same RCC of 500 AD is indeed the “little horn” of Daniel and had already adopted  pagan practices from the time of Constantine- Sunday worship, statues and idols, infallibility of the Pope—- these are just a very few pagan practices of old. 

Are these Scriptural? Heck no! The real view is not that we are doing away with time honored ways, rituals and practices founded in the Scriptures, we are in a 1,500 year process of trying to purge all the man made / pagan practices and rituals and those too many interpretations that truly corrupt the Word of God. This has ALL been prophecized in Daniel where the “little horn” will think to change His times and laws, and even goes against God Himself (chapter 11). 

Charlie 

[Waggles]

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

How many times did He tell us He hated the “traditions” of men? 

And since when is water baptism not of God but only a tradition of men?

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Waggles said:

And since when is water baptism not of God but only a tradition of men?

Please tell me where water baptism is of God! 

Then please tell me those verses where He speaks directly to the point of us needing / accepting the Holy Spirit for our salvation!

Thanks, Charlie 

PS I have to skip out for a while... be back later on tonight. 

[Arrabon]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Arrabon! I certainly agree with much of your comments but not the one regarding the need or value for a water baptism. Now, if you substitute water baptism for baptism of the Holy Spirit then we are in agreement. 

Yeah, I get that a lot, but it's alright. 
We can agree to disagree ALWAYS IN GODLY LOVE.

GODLY LOVE is the one topic we can all agree on and ACT ON, and I totally love that.

I don't have to be right when talking here or to anyone face to face, because I'm content in who I am and where I am in my faith, as I continue to seek the "MEAT" OF God's  WORD. I don't have to change someone's mind, or convince them their wrong.

I LOVE to discuss, but refuse to ever argue.

I love people and honestly think it sad the way people can treat each other so badly.

It's not my nature, and not God's desire for me.

God bless you brother in Godly LOVE.

Arrabon

Edited February 3, 2021 by Arrabon

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Arrabon said:

Yeah, I get that a lot, but it's alright. 
We can agree to disagree ALWAYS IN GODLY LOVE.

GODLY LOVE is the one topic we can all agree on and ACT ON, and I totally love that.

I don't have to be right when talking here or to anyone face to face, because I'm content in who I am and where I am in my faith, as I continue to seek the "MEAT" OF God's  WORD. I don't have to change someone's mind, or convince them their wrong.

I LOVE to discuss, but refuse to ever argue.

It's not my nature, and not God's desire for me.

God bless you brother in Godly LOVE.

Arrabon

Thank you very much for your kind and revealing thoughts- greatly appreciated.

However, I can assure you that I am never wrong- well, except for that statement... but I do enjoy learning how others interpret the Bible... 

Unfortunately for ME, I seem to have an issue getting rid of my dislike for all things or most things RCC and this “little horn”.... it simply boggles my mind how so many can accept the paganism in the RCC - not a little leaven, but more than not! To think they can change His commandments and laws and claim the represent God on earth and is infallible and so, so much more is beyond my comprehension. 

The only finding is that I would suspect that maybe 3% actually read the Scriptures. They get all their information from the maybe 1 hour of church services each week- what the priest and the church says is gospel - they are like sheep following Satan and will be lost- they will not be able to claim they were just following His Church... it is indeed NOT His church and that is exactly why His Holy Spirit is essential- no intermediary but the Holy Spirit who never lies and we can be assured He speaks the Truth. 

Now I really do have to go for a while.... and no more talk of this water baptism stuff while I am gone? Charlie 

[appy]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Please tell me where water baptism is of God! 

Then please tell me those verses where He speaks directly to the point of us needing / accepting the Holy Spirit for our salvation!

Thanks, Charlie 

PS I have to skip out for a while... be back later on tonight. 

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In the above verse, Jesus is speaking; giving the Apostles the instruction that they are to baptize new converts with water as a proclamation that the new convert is turning from a life of sin and turning to God wholeheartedly.

When an individual goes through the motions of water baptism without ever intending to turn from a life of sin.  But thinks in his/her heart that by being baptized, God will overlook their sinful life. In other words, their motive for getting baptized is wrong. In that context, the action becomes a tradition of men, so to speak.

 

[Peterlag]

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Yes I understand what you are saying. I'm just giving some examples of how the Bible uses water in a spiritual way. 

" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church*, and gave Himself for it; That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, "   (Eph. 5:25-26).

* the assembly of God's chosen.

 

You know I love you. But I'm very worried about this water being misunderstood by new Christians thinking that Christ was not good enough. That we have to clean up ourselves.

[Charlie744]

35 minutes ago, appy said:

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In the above verse, Jesus is speaking; giving the Apostles the instruction that they are to baptize new converts with water as a proclamation that the new convert is turning from a life of sin and turning to God wholeheartedly.

When an individual goes through the motions of water baptism without ever intending to turn from a life of sin.  But thinks in his/her heart that by being baptized, God will overlook their sinful life. In other words, their motive for getting baptized is wrong. In that context, the action becomes a tradition of men, so to speak.

 

Ok I am back and apparently, there HAS indeed been some discussion while I was away.....didn't think I would notice huh?  Ok, one mulligan only,

Thank you for your response but I really do not believe there is any mention of water in the verses you provided .... I believe that would be an interpretation... Now, I do not know if this will answer you and satisfy your interpretation, but it is MY thought that Jesus was quite convincing and clear and insistent when He told His disciples to stay in Jerusalem for another 10 days or so because He would send them HIS Holy Spirit --- this is such a critical event in our history.... NOT stay and wait for a water baptism...... I believe the water baptism is no different than the High Priest, the Temple. the animal sacrifices..... all these ceremonies including the water baptism is a "type and shadow" of a more perfect sacrifice, High Priest, Baptism, etc.   Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Waggles]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Please tell me where water baptism is of God! 

Read the scriptures in the New Testament - there are numerous verses and much doctrine pertaining to water baptism. 

Jesus [God] commands water baptism along with baptism in the Holy Spirit.

God even underwent water baptism to show us that it was necessary to fulfil all righteousness. 

Hebrews 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 
3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Read the scriptures in the New Testament - there are numerous verses and much doctrine pertaining to water baptism. 

Jesus [God] commands water baptism along with baptism in the Holy Spirit.

God even underwent water baptism to show us that it was necessary to fulfil all righteousness. 

Hebrews 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 
3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

Thank you and as I mentioned earlier, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a more perfect baptism than a water baptism. 

Jesus was a more perfect sacrifice than the animal sacrifices. Jesus was a more perfect High Priest than the Jewish High Priests. 

These are / were all a “type and shadow” of the more perfect things to come.

You still have not be able to provide the verses speaking about water baptism... 

Where does Jesus tell us or “command” BOTH water and Holy Spirit baptism? 

Thanks, Charlie