No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[DeighAnn]

48 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I have got a strong feeling we will not agree on this topic.

By the way, Jesus did tell the thief on the cross he would be with Him... but NOT TODAY... He told him TODAY I tell you that you will be with ME in paradise... much different since Jesus Himself said 3 days later for Mary not to touch Him as He has yet to go to the Father... 

Charlie

I read that and thought, OMG go check it out.  Here is what I found.  If you have indeed found something else please let me know, I would appreciate it.  I don't understand why on the cross Jesus would say 'today' I am telling you doesn't make much sense as the thief KNEW IT WAS TODAY, UNLESS it needs to be 'different' for some REASON. Does it?  You must ask yourself what is the more natural and simple explanation.  Am I fitting my way to Gods or am I fitting Gods way to mine?  Every single verse should be questioned this way when you are asked to believe it mean what God wrote.  Don't get me wrong.  There are some verses in there that don't seem to read natural no matter what you do.  THOSE are always God MAKING US STOP and investigate what He is really saying.  

But any how,  these are what I found, you can do with them as you chose.  I appreciate you pointing out this difference in how we see it, I felt my heart drop when I read it and now I feel better.  So thank you EVEN if we may not see it the same.  

Greek
Luke 23:43

And He said to him Truly to you I say today with Me you will be in Paradise.

Lexicon
Luke 23:42
3004, 2424, 3403, 3572, 2064, 932

to say Jesus to remember whenever to come kingdom

Luke 23:43
3004, 281, 3004, 4594, 3857

to say truly to say today a paradise

Interlinear
And He said to him Truly to you I say today with Me you will be in Paradise
 

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I read that and thought, OMG go check it out.  Here is what I found.  If you have indeed found something else please let me know, I would appreciate it.  I don't understand why on the cross Jesus would say 'today' I am telling you doesn't make much sense as the thief KNEW IT WAS TODAY, UNLESS it needs to be 'different' for some REASON. Does it?  You must ask yourself what is the more natural and simple explanation.  Am I fitting my way to Gods or am I fitting Gods way to mine?  Every single verse should be questioned this way when you are asked to believe it mean what God wrote.  Don't get me wrong.  There are some verses in there that don't seem to read natural no matter what you do.  THOSE are always God MAKING US STOP and investigate what He is really saying.  

But any how,  these are what I found, you can do with them as you chose.  I appreciate you pointing out this difference in how we see it, I felt my heart drop when I read it and now I feel better.  So thank you EVEN if we may not see it the same.  

Greek
Luke 23:43

And He said to him Truly to you I say today with Me you will be in Paradise.

Lexicon
Luke 23:42
3004, 2424, 3403, 3572, 2064, 932

to say Jesus to remember whenever to come kingdom

Luke 23:43
3004, 281, 3004, 4594, 3857

to say truly to say today a paradise

Interlinear
And He said to him Truly to you I say today with Me you will be in Paradise
 

SONshine, thanks for your information ... this is one of the many arguments out there ... did Jesus mean to tell the thief he will be in paradise with Jesus THAT DAY, or did Jesus mean to tell him TODAY I TELL YOU, you will be with ME in paradise.

Remember, Jesus Himself did NOT go to heaven / paradise that day... He rested on the Sabbath in the tomb and He did not rise until the 1st day of the week - our Sunday. Then, when Mary recognized HIM outside the tomb in the garden she attempted to touch HIM but He told her not to since He had not yet ascended to His Father.... Jesus was not in paradise Himself ... Charlie

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

SONshine, thanks for your information ... this is one of the many arguments out there ... did Jesus mean to tell the thief he will be in paradise with Jesus THAT DAY, or did Jesus mean to tell him TODAY I TELL YOU, you will be with ME in paradise.

Remember, Jesus Himself did NOT go to heaven / paradise that day... He rested on the Sabbath in the tomb and He did not rise until the 1st day of the week - our Sunday. Then, when Mary recognized HIM outside the tomb in the garden she attempted to touch HIM but He told her not to since He had not yet ascended to His Father.... Jesus was not in paradise Himself ... Charlie

Yes, but the tombs were opened and the veil rent and the FATHER was. 

[missmuffet]

11 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Amen.

You did not answer my question if you believe in soul sleep. SDA, Christadeliphians and JW believe in soul sleep. It is not biblical which makes it a dangerous Christian theology to post on Worthy. You are allowing people to stumble and fall in their Christian faith. God does not like that. 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, but the tombs were opened and the veil rent and the FATHER was. 

What does that mean to you? Jesus was in the grave on the Sabbath.... He could not be with the thief in paradise.....

This is one of those "where do you place the comma's",(since there are no punctuation marks in Hebrew), OR MORE IMPORTANTLY, what do you (whoever "you" might be at the time) WANT THAT VERSE TO SAY....but again, Jesus was not in paradise THAT DAY HIMSELF, Charlie

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

You did not answer my question if you believe in soul sleep. SDA, Christadeliphians and JW believe in soul sleep. It is not biblical which makes it a dangerous Christian theology to post on Worthy. You are allowing people to stumble and fall in their Christian faith. God does not like that. 

missmuffet, why do you say it is not biblical? Are you saying the OT does not speak on this?  Charlie

[missmuffet]

17 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

missmuffet, why do you say it is not biblical? Are you saying the OT does not speak on this?  Charlie

What OT scripture tells you that the soul does not immediately go to heaven or hades?

This is what happens when a person dies. It is best to not listen to false doctrine.

Question: "What happens after death?"

Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to heaven or hell. Others believe that at the moment of death, people are instantly judged and sent to their eternal destinations. Still others claim that when people die, their souls/spirits are sent to a “temporary” heaven or hell, to await the final resurrection, the final judgment, and then the finality of their eternal destination. So, what exactly does the Bible say happens after death?
First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).

Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-after-death.html

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by missmuffet

[missmuffet]

24 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

missmuffet, why do you say it is not biblical? Are you saying the OT does not speak on this?  Charlie

Charlie read this as well.

 

Question: "Where did Old Testament believers/saints go when they died?"

Answer: The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.

A resurrection awaits everyone—either a resurrection to eternal life or a resurrection to “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). The Bible clearly states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by missmuffet

[DeighAnn]

24 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

What does that mean to you? Jesus was in the grave on the Sabbath.... He could not be with the thief in paradise.....

This is one of those "where do you place the comma's",(since there are no punctuation marks in Hebrew), OR MORE IMPORTANTLY, what do you (whoever "you" might be at the time) WANT THAT VERSE TO SAY....but again, Jesus was not in paradise THAT DAY HIMSELF, Charlie

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


 

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.




John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

John 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


 

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


 

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.




John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

John 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


 

Thank you DeighAnn for these verses but I don't believe any of these are concerned with what happens after death...... Charlie