No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Revelation Man]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is pretty much myth.

We ARE a spirit being. Our spirit being possesses a soul, which includes our mind, will, and emotions. We live for now in a flesh and blood body, but after the resurrection will live in a flesh and bone body  - a resurrection body like Jesus had.

When a human dies, their spirit and soul slip out of the physical body and are taken either to hell or to heaven: GOD sends them to the place they have chosen by their lifestyle. Note carefully, when the human spirit leaves the body, they are then body-LESS. It is in that body-less form that they go to either heaven or hell. If someone could see into the realm of the spirit, human spirits could be SEEN and would appear very much like their looked like in the flesh.

Spirit man: the human spirit or the "inward man" as Paul called it. It will live as long as God lives.
Human body: a flesh and blood body with the life in the blood. It is appointed to die.
Resurrection body: a flesh and bone body that can be touched but can walk through walls and will never die.
Human being: a spirit being living temporarily in a flesh and blood house or body that will die.

This is just not true, the Dead are RAISED at the SAME TIME as those who are living, the scriptures are very pointed here, its just men's traditions that keep these misunderstanding around. 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND the dead in Christ shall rise first:(When do the DEAD ARISE brother? AFTER Jesus descends from Heaven to Rapture the Church, the DEAD in Christ ARSE FIRST !! It couldn't be any plainer than this brother).

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.m 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I  do not understand how you can misunderstand the verbiage here, it is really straightforward. You have to believe Paul is misleading us not to get this, I understand the old English can bee hard tom get, but this is pretty legible tbh.

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is pretty much myth.

We ARE a spirit being. Our spirit being possesses a soul, which includes our mind, will, and emotions. We live for now in a flesh and blood body, but after the resurrection will live in a flesh and bone body  - a resurrection body like Jesus had.

When a human dies, their spirit and soul slip out of the physical body and are taken either to hell or to heaven: GOD sends them to the place they have chosen by their lifestyle. Note carefully, when the human spirit leaves the body, they are then body-LESS. It is in that body-less form that they go to either heaven or hell. If someone could see into the realm of the spirit, human spirits could be SEEN and would appear very much like their looked like in the flesh.

Spirit man: the human spirit or the "inward man" as Paul called it. It will live as long as God lives.
Human body: a flesh and blood body with the life in the blood. It is appointed to die.
Resurrection body: a flesh and bone body that can be touched but can walk through walls and will never die.
Human being: a spirit being living temporarily in a flesh and blood house or body that will die.

Oh no you didn’t !

This is another great topic of discussion and where there was approximately 54 pages of comments/posts generated.

My take on this was to go back to the very beginning of everything- God took earth (A) and imputed HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this formed / created a “living being or a living soul” (C). This (C) is a product of the two and can not “be” or exist unless BOTH parts are present. This is not only the beginning of all things “man” but the law of First Mention. Consequently, ALL subsequent verses speaking of man MUST obey/ Ovid by this formula. There are many verses that SEEM to contradict this formula but that simply means we are adding something into the verse or to this formula. 

So, when we physically die, the (A) returns to the earth and the (B) returns to God— (C) is no longer, there is no more (C) to go anywhere- since it is a combination of two parts. At the end of times, God will bring the two back together- those (C’s) who accepted Jesus will be with Him forever and those who rejected Him are permanently destroyed and cease to ever “be” anymore.

Charlie

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

How nice to hear: that it is nice to be heard from! Thanks. A "can of worms" does indeed take a lot of "unpacking." We agree. No, sorry. I don't want to get into another long disagreement. I may just disappear again!

No don’t go! Tell you what... start a new topic of your own and restrict its focus as best you can... Charlie 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

This is just not true, the Dead are RAISED at the SAME TIME as those who are living, the scriptures are very pointed here, its just men's traditions that keep these misunderstanding around. 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND the dead in Christ shall rise first:(When do the DEAD ARISE brother? AFTER Jesus descends from Heaven to Rapture the Church, the DEAD in Christ ARSE FIRST !! It couldn't be any plainer than this brother).

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.m 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I  do not understand how you can misunderstand the verbiage here, it is really straightforward. You have to believe Paul is misleading us not to get this, I understand the old English can bee hard tom get, but this is pretty legible tbh.

This is just not true, the Dead are RAISED at the SAME TIME as those who are living

The word "first" has to have meaning. It means first, which is opposed to "same time." However, it may very well be a very short time indeed between when the dead in Christ are raised and then when those alive are raised. It may be microseconds, milliseconds, or even seconds, but the dead will be risen first.

We are in agreement that both groups rise at the same coming of Christ.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

Oh no you didn’t !

This is another great topic of discussion and where there was approximately 54 pages of comments/posts generated.

My take on this was to go back to the very beginning of everything- God took earth (A) and imputed HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this formed / created a “living being or a living soul” (C). This (C) is a product of the two and can not “be” or exist unless BOTH parts are present. This is not only the beginning of all things “man” but the law of First Mention. Consequently, ALL subsequent verses speaking of man MUST obey/ Ovid by this formula. There are many verses that SEEM to contradict this formula but that simply means we are adding something into the verse or to this formula. 

So, when we physically die, the (A) returns to the earth and the (B) returns to God— (C) is no longer, there is no more (C) to go anywhere- since it is a combination of two parts. At the end of times, God will bring the two back together- those (C’s) who accepted Jesus will be with Him forever and those who rejected Him are permanently destroyed and cease to ever “be” anymore.

Charlie

You are turning a triune being into two parts. When God breathed, He breathed the human spirit into Adam. But what is not written is that the human human spirit possessed a soul. So the moment Adam came to life, his mind was new. He had no memory of anything.  But God must have included enough "soul" (mind, will, emotions, memories, affections) so that Adam could instantly understand words. 

Unlike a baby that starts with very little in their soul.

Adam became a living soul as a spirit being with a soul living in a body. 

I think we are going to disagree until we arrive there!

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

You are turning a triune being into two parts. When God breathed, He breathed the human spirit into Adam. But what is not written is that the human human spirit possessed a soul. So the moment Adam came to life, his mind was new. He had no memory of anything.  But God must have included enough "soul" (mind, will, emotions, memories, affections) so that Adam could instantly understand words. 

Unlike a baby that starts with very little in their soul.

Adam became a living soul as a spirit being with a soul living in a body. 

I think we are going to disagree until we arrive there!

Yea, I agree we are going to have to disagree... but I can assure you it will take Him a lot longer to reinstate your 3 parts than my two parts!

Charlie

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is just not true, the Dead are RAISED at the SAME TIME as those who are living

The word "first" has to have meaning. It means first, which is opposed to "same time." However, it may very well be a very short time indeed between when the dead in Christ are raised and then when those alive are raised. It may be microseconds, milliseconds, or even seconds, but the dead will be risen first.

We are in agreement that both groups rise at the same coming of Christ.

Well no kidding, that was my whole point to start with, that the dead do not go straight to heaven, but are RAISED at the SAME TIME as those who are raptured, thus we SLEEP or REST until the Rapture. 

So, what was your original disagreement? 

I truly believe you do not read before you make your arguments brother. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Yea, I agree we are going to have to disagree... but I can assure you it will take Him a lot longer to reinstate your 3 parts than my two parts!

Charlie

This is really very simple: GOD is a triune being and we are created in His image and after His likeness. Paul got it right: Spirit, soul and body.

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Well no kidding, that was my whole point to start with, that the dead do not go straight to heaven, but are RAISED at the SAME TIME as those who are raptured, thus we SLEEP or REST until the Rapture. 

So, what was your original disagreement? 

I truly believe you do not read before you make your arguments brother. 

We cannot compare apples to oranges. There is a difference in saints dying (absent with the body is to be present with the Lord) and the day of Resurrection. Are you confusing the two? 

Don't confuse sleep with death, either. Occasionally the bible says sleep when it is death. At a saint's death, there is no "sleep," but the spirit goes to be with the Father. The church has believed this since the days of Paul. Why would you disagree?

MILLIONS of believers have died in Christ, and they are all in heaven now. They are NOT SLEEPING! "Soul sleep" is a false doctrine. 

On the other hand, there are some (I hope I am one) who will NOT die or "sleep" in death before the rapture, but will rather be caught up. That will be the second part of Paul's "rapture" equation: we that are alive and remain (unto His coming).

It was you who disagreed with me originally.

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is really very simple: GOD is a triune being and we are created in His image and after His likeness. Paul got it right: Spirit, soul and body.

Thanks and I hear that! But we can not get around A+B = C ... I think it is in Gen. 2:7 or so... 

I will agree with you that MOST folks are on your side of the fence here but perhaps you might tell me how you read 2:7... 

I don’t believe I am reading anything more or less into it... 

Thanks, Charlie