Can God Lie or Instruct Someone to Lie on His Behalf?

[Uber Genius]

On 2/14/2021 at 3:33 AM, Deborah_ said:

Does the God of truth really set out to deceive anyone? But part of His judgement on sinful human beings is to give us what we want. Ahab had surrounded himself with flattering advisers and tame yes-men; he wasn’t really interested in hearing the truth (he punished Micaiah for speaking it!), only in getting his own way. And in the end, he had been given both the truth and the falsehood; which message would he choose to believe

Thoughtful response, but seems to dodge the issue a little.

YES! The God of truth really set out to deceive Ahab!

I think we have hyperbole in the first passage about God not lying. That it was getting at the truth-telling nature of God. But that he wasn't constrained by that aspect, apparently, and searching his own moral nature determined that there are cases that allow him, a morally perfect being, to lie without impugning his moral perfection.

We don't define truth in terms of subjects!

truth is defined as accurately representing the real world. GOd didn't do that.

truth is not defined in terms of subjects (Ahab) but rather is objective (without reference to subjects (people)).

you could modify your claim to say God reserves the right to lie to those who refuse to listen to the truth repeatedly.

[Uber Genius]

6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

God decided Ahab had to die. It is entirely up to Him as to how this is effected. God is by nature Good and Sovereign. I have not a single iota of a problem with this. Why? Because I trust His judgement implicitly.

It is NO PART OF MY ARGUMENT TO SAY:

"God lied therefore he is not sovereign or I don't trust him."

"God can't lie"

"Then God lied."

 My point was to get people to deal with the claims.

There are several attempts to appeal to God sovereignty and skirt the issue. These are natural enough, but are changing the subject or leading people away. 

I want people to investigate the use of hyperbole in the first claim.

I want them to consider if lying is a necessary moral imperfection or if it is just contingent. If the latter, then God maintains his moral perfection and I suggest still worthy of worship. If the former then God is still sovereign to be sure, but hardly worthy of worship! 

[Uber Genius]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:48 PM, Willa said:

No, that would be not the heavenly hose but one of satan's minions.

So verse 19 say "I saw the Lord take his throne in heaven with all his HOST OF HEAVEN, around him, standing on his right and left."

So we know it is a member of the heavenly host, and not a demonic being. Psalm 82, and 89 we see references to a divine council , "council of the holy ones," is how they are called in 89:7.

So we can't escape the claim in my OP by reading into the passage an evil agent. Context is king.

[Uber Genius]

On 2/11/2021 at 8:48 PM, BK1110 said:

the heavenly host to entice Ahab. When the spirit came forward and offered to do so, the Lord asked how it planned to do it, and the spirit said that lying was it's own plan. The Lord the agreed to it. I think it would be twisting the wording to say that the Lord commanded or even requested a spirit to lie.

So I like your engagement of the text. But what is in view here? The divine council is meeting and council members (heavenly host) are coming up with possible solutions. But God sanctioned the lie. HE could have rejected it saying, "We don't lie, that's the other team."

But he doesn't. 

So I don't see how we can affirm his control over everyone and everything, and further God's selection of an angelic member of the divine councils suggestion of lying, and punt to permissive will. 

The passage doesn't not say then Satan requested to lie and God allowed it. Now we know OT authors who have made such claims, so if the author of Kings wanted to, he would have a record of such an incident in Job (at least verbally transmitted if you hold to a late date for Job). So it seems that God's moral perfection is still in view here.

[Uber Genius]

I notice a common theme in the replies: assigning a permissive will to the lying. But I want to highlight the text.

1 - This is a divine council meeting and Satan and/or evil spirits are not in the mix. They are in other passages in the OT and the author had the ability to make that plain, so we have no textual warrant to suggest that and evil being is in the council meeting. 

2 -Just as God will use some Christians to help him rule and reign in his future kingdom Revelation 2, so too we see a divine council that God allows to help him govern appears many places in the OT (Dan 7:9-10, Ps 82:1, Ps.89:7 1 Kings 22:19ff )

So we can't dodge this passage by assigning an evil agent to the role of liar. This may be a new concept to many... but investigate it before tossing it out because it is unfamiliar. 

If true a loyal high-ranking angelic being make the suggestion to God and carries out the lie! No Satan figure or evil spirit present in the narrative. 

[Uber Genius]

Note: I believe God is all-good and all-loving and therefore worthy of our worship due to his moral perfection, and I believe he used a member of his ruling host to lie to accomplish his means. 

Further I don't think there are any textual inaccuracies here and I hold a high view of inspiration.

[Willa]

1 hour ago, Uber Genius said:

So verse 19 say "I saw the Lord take his throne in heaven with all his HOST OF HEAVEN, around him, standing on his right and left."

So we know it is a member of the heavenly host, and not a demonic being. Psalm 82, and 89 we see references to a divine council , "council of the holy ones," is how they are called in 89:7.

So we can't escape the claim in my OP by reading into the passage an evil agent. Context is king.

A lying spirit is an evil spirit because Satan is the father of lies.  God permitted them to be in the mouths of false prophets just as he permitted satan to afflict God within the limits given.

[BK1110]

1 hour ago, Uber Genius said:

So verse 19 say "I saw the Lord take his throne in heaven with all his HOST OF HEAVEN, around him, standing on his right and left."

So we know it is a member of the heavenly host, and not a demonic being. Psalm 82, and 89 we see references to a divine council , "council of the holy ones," is how they are called in 89:7.

So we can't escape the claim in my OP by reading into the passage an evil agent. Context is king.

Are we sure of that? We know that Satan and other fallen angels have access to heaven from Job. What in the text assures us that it was NOT a demon/fallen angel?

I also think there could be a component of thinking "what's wrong for us is also wrong for God" here. E.G. the Bible makes it clear that God is chiefly concerned with his own glory, and seeing himself glorified. If we felt that way about us, it would be prideful sin. But it is not sin for God to seek his own glory, because he is actually perfectly glorious and worthy of it.

[Michael37]

36 minutes ago, Willa said:

A lying spirit is an evil spirit because Satan is the father of lies.  God permitted them to be in the mouths of false prophets just as he permitted satan to afflict God within the limits given.

I think you mean God permitted Satan to afflict Job within the limits given . . .

[LearningToLetGo]

2 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

1 - This is a divine council meeting and Satan and/or evil spirits are not in the mix

Do we really know who comprises the divine council? Might it be like a court hearing, e.g. open to the public at large?