Rapture questions

[WilliamL]

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

The 70th week will not begin until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

There is no scripture that says this: it is pure presumption.

[iamlamad]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:35 PM, WailingWall said:

I wanted to ask a few simple questions about the rapture theory. What ive found in scripture is no wheres near what i hear from the Rapturist. Ive found that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we are not going to heaven but are going to the kingdom, the thousand year period of rest, right here on this earth. The changing {rapture} takes place on the Day of the Lord, after the tribulation period. Are there any scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the time of the changing?

Go back and study 1 Thes. 4 & 5. You will find Paul teaching us that the rapture will come JUST before wrath, and as the trigger for the start of Wrath. If you look in Revelation you find that the Day of wrath starts even before any part of the 70th week - the week and His wrath starting with the first trumpet judgment - but the 1000 years is not found until after the entire 70th week has run its course. 

What do you do with John 14 - Jesus went (to heaven) to build homes for us, and will come and get is and take us to those homes He has prepared? WE build homes here on earth. GOD builds our homes in heaven. 

Next, you have misplaced "the Day of the Lord." It is the same as the Day of His wrath, and that is announced at the 6th seal and begins with the 7th. After the 7th and final seal is opened then the BOOK is opened, which starts the trumpets written inside the book.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for any trumpet judgment to be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. The 70th week goes from Rev. 8 to Rev. 16, and the 1000 years comes after that. 

[WailingWall]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, you have misplaced "the Day of the Lord." It is the same as the Day of His wrath, and that is announced at the 6th seal and begins with the 7th.

No, i have not misplaced the DOL. Youll find the Day of the Lord right there in 1Thes4.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -
 
ZEPH. 1 –  voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -
 
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period
 

[Jaydub]

On 2/28/2021 at 5:12 AM, WailingWall said:

understand why people need to believe in a rapture. There afraid. Dont be afraid

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

HE will keep you from the evil!

That is my favorite "rapture" verse

I like to add this, verse 20  “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 

Jesus here prays that we not be taken out of this world, but protected in it

Would Jesus take us out of this world after praying that we stay in this world?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, WailingWall said:

No, i have not misplaced the DOL. Youll find the Day of the Lord right there in 1Thes4.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -
 
ZEPH. 1 –  voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -
 
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period
 

You can believe this if you choose, but you will be wrong.  The verses you quoted cannot be used for chronology. On the other hand, John used very strict chronology in Revelation. When John shows us the start of the Day of the Lord as one of the seals, we can then know for sure the DAY starts before the 70th week.

Paul also teaches us that the rapture will come just before the Day.

By the way, the Trumpet of the Lord cannot be one of the 7 trumpets angels sound. 

I wonder, can you pinpoint the start and end of "the tribulation" in Revelation?

Edited March 9, 2021 by iamlamad

[WailingWall]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You can believe this if you choose......

Yup. I choose to believe the scriptures and really alls ya gotta do is keep reading the so called rapture scripture
      
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
                                                                                     
1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.
 
Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

Thes. scriptures---women with child—V.16 resurrection---sudden destruction—Day of the Lord

Isaiah26-----------women with child----V.19 resurrection---punish earthlings-----Day of the Lord
 
ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
Isaiah 26 Verse 19. The dead in Christ shall rise first {1Thes.4v16}. 
 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, WailingWall said:

Yup. I choose to believe the scriptures and really alls ya gotta do is keep reading the so called rapture scripture
      
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
                                                                                     
1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.
 
Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

Thes. scriptures---women with child—V.16 resurrection---sudden destruction—Day of the Lord

Isaiah26-----------women with child----V.19 resurrection---punish earthlings-----Day of the Lord
 
ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
Isaiah 26 Verse 19. The dead in Christ shall rise first {1Thes.4v16}. 
 

I choose to believe the scriptures... Don't we all? The problem is understanding what is read. 

Phrases you capitalized:

THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST
THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night

Why would Paul stick "the Day of the Lord" in a rapture passage? 

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord?

No, it does not. It may seem to the casual reader to be so, but it cannot be so. Why?  Paul goes on to explain that the Day of the Lord is the start of God's wrath. Right after writing of the Day of the Lord, He wrote that God would not set any appointments for His children with His wrath. The Day of the Lord is CALLED "the Day of wrath" at the 6th seal. Sorry, but the rapture is not wrath - never will be. The truth is, the rapture must come before wrath. 

What Paul is really showing us is that the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord and His wrath.

I agree: chapter 5 continues Paul's discussion of the rapture events - but gives us timing information: JUST before wrath. Why anyone would imagine that the rapture would be on a "dark day" of great wrath amazes me.  

There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. I agree: the rapture will be the trigger for the Day - no gap or time in between: one moment people are saying peace and safety, and the next the rapture will have taken place and Paul's "sudden destruction" hits: an earthquake caused by the raising of the dead in Christ. (Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.")

Does "sudden destruction" sound like "peace and safety," or more like wrath? It comes immediately AFTER the rapture. It will be caused by the raising of the dead.

²⁰ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

²¹ For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Verse 20 speaks of the rapture; verse 21 speaks of judgment: the Day of the Lord. The rapture cannot possibly take place during wrath; it most come BEFORE wrath, just as Isaiah has shown us.

In Revelation John marches straight through time with seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 - but STOPS before the 7th. Why? It is simple: The 7th seal allows the book to be opened which contains the trumpet judgments: they are God's WRATH poured out.  They are God beginning to destroy the earth - the "hurt" written in chapter 7. So God the Father must see TWO THINGS accomplished before wrath can begin with that first trumpet: first, the 144,000 must be sealed. Second, the church must be seen safely in heaven (Isaiah 26:20) before wrath begins (with the first trumpet judgment.) The great crowd, too large to number, is the raptured church, just arrived in heaven. The rapture in Revelation can be just before the 6th seal, or from that time to just before the 7th seal. Note carefully, in Revelation, the 7th seal is in chapter 8, AFTER God has shown John the raptured church in heaven. 

This follows Paul's pattern: rapture first, then the Day of the Lord and "sudden destruction." We now have two witnesses that the rapture comes before wrath. Then Paul wrote, "Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Now we have THREE witnesses that the rapture must come before wrath.

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"  Now we have FOUR witnesses that the rapture must come before wrath.

How then can anyone imagine that the DAY of His wrath starts, and THEN the rapture takes place? That is the cart before the horse. 

Isaiah 26:19 is probably speaking of the rising of the OLD TESTAMENT saints. They do not rise with the dead in Christ. They were not "in Christ." Their resurrection will come "on the last day," or the last 24 hours of the 70th week. Their resurrection will cause the world's worst ever earthquake - the very earthquake we see at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Therefore, I disagree with how you understand these scriptures.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Jaydub said:

That is my favorite "rapture" verse

I like to add this, verse 20  “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 

Jesus here prays that we not be taken out of this world, but protected in it

Would Jesus take us out of this world after praying that we stay in this world?

Its all in keeping verses in their context. Does a person suddenly disappear the moment they are born again? No! God keeps us in the world as His body on earth. Jesus ascended, so God leaves it up to His body on earth to accomplish His works.

Next, it is not wise to build a doctrine from an isolated verse. There are MANY end time verses we must consider.  John 14 is such a verse. Jesus promised to take us to the homes He has prepared.

[Jaydub]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

ts all in keeping verses in their context. Does a person suddenly disappear the moment they are born again? No! God keeps us in the world as His body on earth. Jesus ascended, so God leaves it up to His body on earth to accomplish His works.

I am sorry, can you please explain to me where I have the context wrong.

Jesus prayer is to protect his disciples and all who hear their message  and not to take them out of the world, so to your point, not when we are sinners , not when we are born again, no we are to stay in this world being protected by the Lord until his return. Does that mean we will not be persecuted, absolutely not, we are to pick up our cross and follow him. All the disciples were persecuted, but they never lost faith

 

Quote

Next, it is not wise to build a doctrine from an isolated verse

I said that was my favorite verse, its not the only reason I believe as I do

[iamlamad]

Just now, Jaydub said:

I am sorry, can you please explain to me where I have the context wrong.

Jesus prayer is to protect his disciples and all who hear their message  and not to take them out of the world, so to your point, not when we are sinners , not when we are born again, no we are to stay in this world being protected by the Lord until his return. Does that mean we will not be persecuted, absolutely not, we are to pick up our cross and follow him. All the disciples were persecuted, but they never lost faith

 

I said that was my favorite verse, its not the only reason I believe as I do

It seems you are building a doctrine of no trip to heaven as in the rapture event by this one verse, when there are other verses that show a rapture and Jesus taking us to the homes He has prepared.  it is an absolute fact that we are left in this word after we are born again. But it is just as much a fact that Jesus was not talking about the rapture in His prayer.