Seven Year Tribulation?

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Diaste, I believe the 7 year tribulation time period originated from a gross misinterpretation of a verse in Daniel. Many / most contend the 70 weeks or 490 year prophecy, which began when the Jews were allowed to leave Babylon has this one 7 year (last week) period has yet to happen. Rather than a continuous 490 years, they believe there is a "gap" between the ending of the 483 years and the beginning of this last 7 years  - so, they (again, most) are awaiting this last week to begin....

Unfortunately, this "concept" was conceived by the Jesuits around the 1500's to provide a strong counter to the coming or beginning Reformation.  Prior to this time, the papacy was believed to be the "little horn" of Daniel. The RCC commissioned the Jesuits to come up with a new interpretation of Daniel that would "get this off their shoulders" and remove their identification as the "little horn" of Daniel - which I certainly believe they are.

Consequently, there were two new concepts / interpretations presented - they both would counter the "little horn" label but the one that was accepted and tremendously marketed and pushed throughout the Christian world was this "futuristic" approach where this "little horn" character would not arrive until some 2,000 years or so in the future, thus removing ANY connection with the papacy since this "little horn" figure would arise out of the "beast" (4th kingdom - pagan Rome) after the City, the Temple and the Jewish people were desolated by Titus in 70 AD. 

This was and still is a very successful campaign by the RCC where almost all now accept this antichrist figure coming at the beginning of this remaining 7 year period and who will also sit in a 3rd Temple who will make an agreement with the Jews only to turn on them in the middle  of the 7 years.  In order for all of this to make any sense, this futuristic counter argument to the papacy being this "little horn", it required more than a few verses in Daniel 9 to be re-interpreted or more correctly grossly misinterpreted and promoted in a huge way ----- and it has worked so far... 

So, my opinion is the 70 weeks were certainly continuous and the last week of this 70 weeks began when the Messiah was baptized by John in the Jordan. This started HIS ministry and as we all know, Jesus was indeed "cut off" in the "midst of the week" when He was crucified.  But all of this was also prophesied in both Daniel 9 and 11...... where this "little horn" will think to change times and laws, he will think himself to be god on earth, he will corrupt HIS Word and on and on...... This is what the "little horn" has been doing for some 1500 years. 

But as I mentioned, almost all have been drinking this coolaid for some 500 years and it is now perceived as "gospel" - so difficult to argue with such blind acceptance moving down a hill at great speed...... but it will come to the surface before HIS second coming..... In Daniel 12, we see the second mention to Daniel that he is to "seal up or shut up" this book (verses that will only be made known at the end of times) when knowledge will increase, etc.  This may also be applicable to man's increase in their knowledge base (medicine, communications, engineering, travel, etc., and it certainly has), but God is speaking about our increase in the knowledge and understanding of HIS Word! 

Thanks Charlie

Hey,

I agree the RCC and the papacy are working against the gospel and even subverting the deity and position of Christ and His provision for our salvation. 

I also struggle a bit with 'the gap'. It seemed to make no sense when I first heard it. It was taught as part of the overall pretrib doctrine I learned early on then rejected a bit later. I not so jaded by lies that I reject the truth contained within the overall lie, however. They got a lot right and one can see the years of study that went into the end result. 

How is there a gap? I don't know. Why is there a gap? I don't know. If we take the many prophecies and merge the truth and the facts there must be a gap.

Paraphrasing Doyle, "If all other possibilities are eliminated then whatever remains is the solution no matter how fantastic it seems."

Is the completion of the prophecy 7 years long? Is it all 'tribulation'?

[Justin Adams]

I also see this fake stuff just by study and ignoring the RCC, Darby, Augustine and most of the so-called pillars of the reformation.

I find little to support 'modern eschatology' and think it is all highly suspect. Yes, even the so-called millenium spiel I keep hearing about. The pre-trib et al is also a well favored flavor and a 'new Koolaid' is presented for us to guzzle almost daily.

I encourage people to throw out the commentaries and the dogmas and focus on scholarly study of the LXX and Qumran texts. Just like the early (first century) church.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Hey,

I agree the RCC and the papacy are working against the gospel and even subverting the deity and position of Christ and His provision for our salvation. 

I also struggle a bit with 'the gap'. It seemed to make no sense when I first heard it. It was taught as part of the overall pretrib doctrine I learned early on then rejected a bit later. I not so jaded by lies that I reject the truth contained within the overall lie, however. They got a lot right and one can see the years of study that went into the end result. 

How is there a gap? I don't know. Why is there a gap? I don't know. If we take the many prophecies and merge the truth and the facts there must be a gap.

Paraphrasing Doyle, "If all other possibilities are eliminated then whatever remains is the solution no matter how fantastic it seems."

Is the completion of the prophecy 7 years long? Is it all 'tribulation'?

It is always nice when you have the time to respond... hope everything is yay work and they are not overworking you too much.

This “gap” theory is / was critical for the “futuristic counter concept” to work! Prior to the 1500,s the wildly accepted belief was the little horn was the papacy. Luther and the Reformation presented a very serious threat to the RCC, and this “label” was a significant issue for them to refute. 

Consequently, they had to ensure that Christians would learn / be instructed that they could not possibly be the “little horn” since this character will come sometime in the future... since the RCC and the papacy were in existence for some 1000 years at the time of the Reformation, they argued it could not be the papacy. 

So, they re-interpreted certain verses in Daniel 9 WHICH ARE CLEARLY AN IMPORTANT PROPHECY OF THE MESSIAH (my opinion), they would now tell a completely different story. This gross misinterpretation needed to be flung into the future and therefore they insisted the last week in Daniel’s 70 weeks has yet to happen, AND they insisted the “he” in Daniel 9:24 was this mythical AC figure rather than point and speak of the coming Messiah. And here we are today where almost everyone accepts their successful gross new interpretation of Daniel. 

Daniel 9 is about the Messiah... everything in 9 was given to Daniel to prophecize about the coming Messiah, HIS death and being “cut off” in the “midst of the week”... 

Look at the language in 9... it is all about HIS mission and what HE will complete and accomplish WITHIN this last week of Daniel... God isn’t giving “ink” to Satan - the most important event in the history of the world will soon take place and God is having Daniel reveal to us what will happen.. yet we have allowed the “little horn” to re-direct HIS Scripture away from the most important prophecies in the Bible... go figure!

Charlie

 

[Brother Duke]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Do you think it's a full 3.5 years? 

I don't see 'tribulation' in Rev except for 'tribulation 10 days' in the letters to the churches. 

I see great tribulation in Matt 24.

Is it possible it's even shorter than 3.5 years?

Rev 13:7 And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Rev 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Rev 11:2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two months.

Rev 11:3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

Rev 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

1260, times time and a half, and 42 months.

All about 3.5 years.

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't see 'tribulation' in Rev except for 'tribulation 10 days' in the letters to the churches. 

Except perhaps in Rev 7:14 "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb or 

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,
 

I am not saying they are equivalent, but the phrase is there!

 

[Brother Duke]

43 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Except perhaps in Rev 7:14 "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb or 

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,
 

I am not saying they are equivalent, but the phrase is there!

 

The word tribulation may be not mentioned many times in Revelation but it is alluded to.

 

Matthew 24 aligns with Revelation 6 and Revelation 11.  

[Brother Duke]

11 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Revelation 9:1-7

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

...

Hey hey!  Jesus has shortened the Great Tribulation to five months, the actual length of the locust season. 

 

11 minutes ago, SONshine said:

 

What happens after the 5 months?  The beast still has 37 months.

 

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

So is Jerusalem restored to the people of Israel right now?

Yes.

According to Lk 21:24, control of the city of Jerusalem is all that is required to end the times of the gentiles.

That happened in 1967.

[Brother Duke]

42 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Scripture please?  We need to determine timeline and define “beast” in context.  Thanks.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Brother Duke
add on

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Except perhaps in Rev 7:14 "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb or 

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,
 

I am not saying they are equivalent, but the phrase is there!

 

Good point. ?

Still not 7 years as far as I can tell.