Seven Year Tribulation?

[abcdef]

Just now, Diaste said:

Hmm...the trouble hasn't ended. Jews aren't allowed to pray on the Mount. Jordan is the caretaker of the Mount. 

The Mount is under the control of the military of Israel.

They enter and search when every they want to. They can open of close access to the area at any time.

There are NO foreign gentile armies or troops controlling the area.

There are many other holy sites where others worship as well.

It's all about military control of Jerusalem. And Israel controls the entire city including the mount.

[Diaste]

18 minutes ago, abcdef said:

That is because there is no gap.

--

There is no gap in the 70 weeks. The 70th week began when Jesus started His ministry. The covenant was confirmed for 7 years until Israel rejected the Pentecost kingdom covenant and the gentiles were grafted in. Then the 70 weeks ended.

--

There is no gap in the prophecies about 70 AD through our present time. It is the second part of the 3 1/2 times.

 

Pretrib and preterism are both designed to prove that the Bishop of Rome is not the Antichrist. That is why they created a "gap".

Preterism says that the Bishop of Rome can't be the Antichrist, because it was all fulfilled by 70 AD.

Pretrib says that the Bishop of Rome can't be the Antichrist because he has not been revealed yet.

All designed to show that Rome is not the beast nation, and that Caesar and the Bishop of Rome are not the Antichrist.

Well....in Revelation we see 42 months as a specific length of time. We also see 1260 days. Neither can be construed to be "times" as in 3.5 times. If we did use that as our baseline for the definition then I'm not convinced we can have 3.5 times in Revelation defined as 1260 days, but then also defined as 2000 years for the same period.

[Brother Duke]

3 minutes ago, SONshine said:

[18] By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

They "kill" with the fire, smoke and brimstone, which came out of their MOUTHS.   This is really easy to understand if we keep in mind that it is "words" that come out of their mouths by which people will be deceived spiritually.  Also, these guys can't harm those with the seal of God in their foreheads.

[19] For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

[20] And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

[21] Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

These are spiritual murders and spiritual drunkenness and drugging of the mind, idolatry and deception. 

I do not think these were spiritual or else why would verse 20 say "And the rest of the men which were not killed"

Also in Rev 13 there is more killing.  Not sure which Woe this is in but an educated guess would be the 2nd woe.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

 

 

 

 

[abcdef]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Well....in Revelation we see 42 months as a specific length of time. We also see 1260 days.

Yes

 

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Neither can be construed to be "times" as in 3.5 times.

The good woman Israel is in the wilderness of the gentiles for 1260 days Rev 12:6, which is shown to be the 3 1/2 times in Rev 12:14. (When her time in the wilderness is completed, she returns to Jerusalem.)

The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days in sackcloth Rev 11:3, which is the same time period as the ch 12:6 woman's time in the wilderness of the gentile nations, the 3 1/2 times. The 2 witnesses (people of Israel, not 2 people), time in sackcloth ends when they are restored to Jerusalem and witness there, which is happening now.

 

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If we did use that as our baseline for the definition then I'm not convinced we can have 3.5 times in Revelation defined as 1260 days, but then also defined as 2000 years for the same period.

The days and months are not literal. They are showing that the 3 1/2 times in the text are the same length, the second 3 1/2 times. 70 AD-1967.

----

Think about this,

The 42 months in Rev 13:5 applies to the beast nation Rome, having power over the people of Israel, from 70 AD until 1967. The beast nation changes form, but is still Rome.

[not an echo]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Similar to what is widely understood, when I think of what is often referred to as the Seven Year Tribulation Period, my mind goes immediately to Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" prophecy (Dan. 9:24-27) and its last, or 70th Week (vs. 27).  As I see it, there are very interesting and scriptural evidences that this will be a period of seven years (or, a "week" of years), with an event taking place "in the midst of the week" (vs. 27), which essentially divides the week into two 3-1/2 year periods.

I agree it's a period of 7 years. But is it all "tribulation" and all that goes along with that as well as "such as was not nor ever shall be" to the point where everyone is dead, or nearly so?

On my end, I believe it might serve our discussion if I could consider when you see the "period of 7 years" (that you acknowledge) as beginning...

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

My issue with that is Jesus tells us to look to Daniel for the understanding of the A of D. The A of D appears in Daniel 9 and therefore cannot be of the Messiah. Jesus is not placing the A of D in the holy place where it ought not stand. 

As I mentioned earlier, for this new concept / interpretation to be promoted by the Jesuits / RCC, they must address more than just one verse in Daniel. They have:

1) changed the focus of "he" in 9:24 to an AC figure rather than "HE" being the Messiah,

2) many also contend the 7 year period, Daniel's last week, is flung far into the future creating this "gap" theory,

3) others contend the 6 fulfillments were NOT completed by Christ at His first coming,

4) the "midst of the week" refers to some AC figure in the far future rather than it clearly (to me) identifies the crucifixion exactly 3.5 years into the 7 years of Daniel's last week,

5) they contend (somehow) this "he" and not "HE" is going to and ABLE to enter into a covenant with the Jews only to betray them in 3.5 years of this "gapped" 7 year period...... We can look throughout the OT and find how many times God has entered in another "Covenant" not only with the Jews but also man... Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses.... GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN ENTER INTO A COVENANT WITH HIS PEOPLE.... Satan or a AC figure is NO covenant maker! The most important covenant entered into by God is the NEW Covenant which is poured out by the Messiah... yet we are not willing to assign this precious covenant to HIS OWN PROPHECIES (AGAIN, thanks to the "little horn", but unfortunately, EACH of us will be held accountable for our beliefs - we will not be able to respond that to God that we were only following the church and your (supposedly) pope / leader of the Christian faith......no, only Jesus is our leader and the prophecies speak about HIM.

So, Daniel 9 has indeed been grossly hi-jacked, if you will, in order to gain the power of HIS authority on earth.... they are and have been willing to speak blasphemies against God Himself (chapter 11), and to "think" to change "times and laws").

But you have isolated the Abomination of Desolation as a barrier, if you will, is still causing you a major concern....... and where you site Matthew 24 as a significant obstacle (and this is certainly understandable since this is a very important verse to contend with when discussing Daniel 9 and just who and when it is speaking to and about).

So let's take that verse in Matthew and perhaps unpack it in a manner that speaks / is interpreted quite differently than today's accepted view (again, along with all the other misinterpretations of Daniel):

 Matthew 24:15-16: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

a) the very first thing I see that conflicts with today's interpretation is "when you see standing in the holy place".

              Jesus is saying this of course while He is with His Disciples. Meaning this MUST take place BEFORE the 70 AD destruction by Titus. For me, this can only mean one of two time periods: either Jesus is referring to 70 AD where Titus completely destroys everything OR (here is where I place my money) at the time of Christ (and all of this verse must tie together or it will fail). I believe it refers to the time of Christ because AFTER the crucifixion, there IS NO HOLY PLACE -THE TEMPLE MAY STAND PHYSICALLY BUT THERE IS NO LONGER ANYTHING HOLY ABOUT IT AND I DON'T SEE JESUS REFERRING TO IT ANY LONGER AFTER HE BECOMES "THIS TEMPLE THAT WILL BE REBUILT IN 3 DAYS". 

             But this interpretation is incomplete unless all other "pieces" fit together. So, WHO is "standing in the holy place the ABOMINATION THAT  CAUSES DESOLATION"? If the holy place is the Temple at the time of the Messiah, then the Messiah is the one who will stand in the Temple..... He will be judged by the Pharisees and thrown out to be crucified OUTSIDE of the Temple at Calvary. His death IS THE ABOMINATION - THE MOST CRUEL, TERRIBLE, UNFATHOMABLE ACT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.... THERE CAN BE NO GREATER ABOMINATION THAN TO CRUCIFY OUR GOD AND LORD!!! 

              His death and the rejection of Him as their coming Messiah will indeed cause a complete desolation of the Jews, their city and their Temple later on in 70 AD. 

             From this point on there is absolutely NO value or righteousness to be found in the Temple and this is also why it is of no concern to any Christian whether today's Jews contend and attempt to build a 3rd Temple.... Even if they are successful in  constructing another Temple, I can assure you that Jesus would not refer to it as a "holy place"....  The Temple, the Sanctuary, the High Priests, the Festivals, the Ceremonial laws (NO, NOT THE MORAL LAWS OF MOSES) WERE ALL A TYPE AND SHADOW OF BETTER THINGS TO COME -and Jesus fulfilled each and every one of them. So this is what Jesus is referring to in Daniel.

b) another part of the verse in Matthew speaks about "let the reader understand". What does Jesus mean by this? Today's interpretation follows in line with all the other misinterpretations from Daniel 9. They contend it must speak of the readers in a time far in the future when this AC will arise (the "he" not "HE" in Daniel 9). But Jesus is telling HIS Disciples that those who "read" these things.... these things will be written by Matthew prior to the destruction in 70 AD.  The killing of their Messiah will indeed cause complete destruction and one must not be in the path of this force (Titus)..... Jews, the City and the Temple will all be destroyed. Jesus does not give them a specific date but this does not take away from HIS prophecy. There are MANY examples of prophetic statements made that did not happen immediately - perfect example of course would be in the Garden when God told Adam "he will surely die".... well, Adam did not die that day (big picture here also).

For me, when I started to read and study Daniel, I did what anyone would do... I had great access to all the scholars writings, opinions , commentaries, etc., They had already done the heavy lifting. All I had to do was take my time and try and learn it and take it all in..... and since just about everyone agreed on the major yet very difficult verses in Daniel, it should be relatively easy for me to absorb. Unfortunately, my mind kept telling me these most important verses (especially in Daniel 9 and all chapter 11) did not make sense. They seemed to refuse to be interpreted about the most important event and person in our history - the coming Messiah. And after much reading and thought I discovered (again for myself only), either these verses are speaking of Jesus ....... or the characters found in our history books or this boogeyman that will come at the end of time to make an agreement with the Jews (but  where Jesus tells us there is no longer Jew or Greek), in a 3rd Temple (but where Jesus tells us the "Temple" will be rebuilt in 3 days and later on the physical Temple will be destroyed), etc.....

So Jesus is referring to HIS crucifixion as THE ABOMINATION and the desolation is indeed is the destruction of the Jews, the Temple and the City BECAUSE they know not the timing of their Messiah.

Diaste, this all goes completely against all the currently accepted interpretations.... but I am so good with these.... Charlie

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hi,

It that 6-11 months? I apologize...it looks like 6 months and 3.3 days.

But yes, 'great tribulation' is only mentioned as later, after the A of D, yet there is no duration. 

Can we know how long GT lasts?

 

Hi Diaste,

Yes we can know how long the GT lasts. 

 

[Charlie744]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

As I mentioned earlier, for this new concept / interpretation to be promoted by the Jesuits / RCC, they must address more than just one verse in Daniel. They have:

1) changed the focus of "he" in 9:24 to an AC figure rather than "HE" being the Messiah,

2) many also contend the 7 year period, Daniel's last week, is flung far into the future creating this "gap" theory,

3) others contend the 6 fulfillments were NOT completed by Christ at His first coming,

4) the "midst of the week" refers to some AC figure in the far future rather than it clearly (to me) identifies the crucifixion exactly 3.5 years into the 7 years of Daniel's last week,

5) they contend (somehow) this "he" and not "HE" is going to and ABLE to enter into a covenant with the Jews only to betray them in 3.5 years of this "gapped" 7 year period...... We can look throughout the OT and find how many times God has entered in another "Covenant" not only with the Jews but also man... Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses.... GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN ENTER INTO A COVENANT WITH HIS PEOPLE.... Satan or a AC figure is NO covenant maker! The most important covenant entered into by God is the NEW Covenant which is poured out by the Messiah... yet we are not willing to assign this precious covenant to HIS OWN PROPHECIES (AGAIN, thanks to the "little horn", but unfortunately, EACH of us will be held accountable for our beliefs - we will not be able to respond that to God that we were only following the church and your (supposedly) pope / leader of the Christian faith......no, only Jesus is our leader and the prophecies speak about HIM.

So, Daniel 9 has indeed been grossly hi-jacked, if you will, in order to gain the power of HIS authority on earth.... they are and have been willing to speak blasphemies against God Himself (chapter 11), and to "think" to change "times and laws").

But you have isolated the Abomination of Desolation as a barrier, if you will, is still causing you a major concern....... and where you site Matthew 24 as a significant obstacle (and this is certainly understandable since this is a very important verse to contend with when discussing Daniel 9 and just who and when it is speaking to and about).

So let's take that verse in Matthew and perhaps unpack it in a manner that speaks / is interpreted quite differently than today's accepted view (again, along with all the other misinterpretations of Daniel):

 Matthew 24:15-16: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

a) the very first thing I see that conflicts with today's interpretation is "when you see standing in the holy place".

              Jesus is saying this of course while He is with His Disciples. Meaning this MUST take place BEFORE the 70 AD destruction by Titus. For me, this can only mean one of two time periods: either Jesus is referring to 70 AD where Titus completely destroys everything OR (here is where I place my money) at the time of Christ (and all of this verse must tie together or it will fail). I believe it refers to the time of Christ because AFTER the crucifixion, there IS NO HOLY PLACE -THE TEMPLE MAY STAND PHYSICALLY BUT THERE IS NO LONGER ANYTHING HOLY ABOUT IT AND I DON'T SEE JESUS REFERRING TO IT ANY LONGER AFTER HE BECOMES "THIS TEMPLE THAT WILL BE REBUILT IN 3 DAYS". 

             But this interpretation is incomplete unless all other "pieces" fit together. So, WHO is "standing in the holy place the ABOMINATION THAT  CAUSES DESOLATION"? If the holy place is the Temple at the time of the Messiah, then the Messiah is the one who will stand in the Temple..... He will be judged by the Pharisees and thrown out to be crucified OUTSIDE of the Temple at Calvary. His death IS THE ABOMINATION - THE MOST CRUEL, TERRIBLE, UNFATHOMABLE ACT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.... THERE CAN BE NO GREATER ABOMINATION THAN TO CRUCIFY OUR GOD AND LORD!!! 

              His death and the rejection of Him as their coming Messiah will indeed cause a complete desolation of the Jews, their city and their Temple later on in 70 AD. 

             From this point on there is absolutely NO value or righteousness to be found in the Temple and this is also why it is of no concern to any Christian whether today's Jews contend and attempt to build a 3rd Temple.... Even if they are successful in  constructing another Temple, I can assure you that Jesus would not refer to it as a "holy place"....  The Temple, the Sanctuary, the High Priests, the Festivals, the Ceremonial laws (NO, NOT THE MORAL LAWS OF MOSES) WERE ALL A TYPE AND SHADOW OF BETTER THINGS TO COME -and Jesus fulfilled each and every one of them. So this is what Jesus is referring to in Daniel.

b) another part of the verse in Matthew speaks about "let the reader understand". What does Jesus mean by this? Today's interpretation follows in line with all the other misinterpretations from Daniel 9. They contend it must speak of the readers in a time far in the future when this AC will arise (the "he" not "HE" in Daniel 9). But Jesus is telling HIS Disciples that those who "read" these things.... these things will be written by Matthew prior to the destruction in 70 AD.  The killing of their Messiah will indeed cause complete destruction and one must not be in the path of this force (Titus)..... Jews, the City and the Temple will all be destroyed. Jesus does not give them a specific date but this does not take away from HIS prophecy. There are MANY examples of prophetic statements made that did not happen immediately - perfect example of course would be in the Garden when God told Adam "he will surely die".... well, Adam did not die that day (big picture here also).

For me, when I started to read and study Daniel, I did what anyone would do... I had great access to all the scholars writings, opinions , commentaries, etc., They had already done the heavy lifting. All I had to do was take my time and try and learn it and take it all in..... and since just about everyone agreed on the major yet very difficult verses in Daniel, it should be relatively easy for me to absorb. Unfortunately, my mind kept telling me these most important verses (especially in Daniel 9 and all chapter 11) did not make sense. They seemed to refuse to be interpreted about the most important event and person in our history - the coming Messiah. And after much reading and thought I discovered (again for myself only), either these verses are speaking of Jesus ....... or the characters found in our history books or this boogeyman that will come at the end of time to make an agreement with the Jews (but  where Jesus tells us there is no longer Jew or Greek), in a 3rd Temple (but where Jesus tells us the "Temple" will be rebuilt in 3 days and later on the physical Temple will be destroyed), etc.....

So Jesus is referring to HIS crucifixion as THE ABOMINATION and the desolation is indeed is the destruction of the Jews, the Temple and the City BECAUSE they know not the timing of their Messiah.

Diaste, this all goes completely against all the currently accepted interpretations.... but I am so good with these.... Charlie

Diaste, just checking back with you to see if there might be any further thoughts on your part... Charlie 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

Yes we can know how long the GT lasts. 

 

I don't see GT on this timeline. I know the entire 7 years is called Tribulation but is that accurate? I don't see it. I see GT as Jesus said it, "...after this shall be GT such as was not nor ever will be..." well into the week.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

On my end, I believe it might serve our discussion if I could consider when you see the "period of 7 years" (that you acknowledge) as beginning...

I don't think any of us know when it begins. The OP asks if  tribulation is 7 years. 

Many think it's synonymous with the last week. Perhaps that's right. Jesus said 'great tribulation' which is not synonymous with the entire week since it only comes after the A of D, which is the midpoint.

I don't see a 7 year 'tribulation'. I see a time of 'great tribulation' beginning at the time of the A of D. I see other 'tribulations' in scripture but not every mention of tribulation is connected to the last week.