Seven Year Tribulation?

[Retrobyter]

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Hi Retro,

Please consider this
Jesus speaking to WHO/WHOM/WHERE when He says

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD' (Psalm 118:26)."?
 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Well, I believe your question was, "To whom was Yeshua` ('Jesus') speaking when He said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem [etc.]"

The answer is that He was speaking to the people who lived in Jerusalem. These were ...

(1) the Levites who ran the Temple (which included the priests and high priests, both Annas and Caiaphas) and ...

(2) the Jews, particularly the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), who were members of the Sanhedrin who made the political decisions for the Tribe/Nation of Yhudah ("Judah" [with smaller Benjamin] a.k.a. the "Southern Kingdom" which returned after the Captivity-to-Babylon-and-Persia).

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe those in the Temple in 70 AD were saying,  

'BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD'?  

(because He had prefaced that with ", Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say....)

No, of course not. ALTHOUGH, His own disciples and the children were saying it when He arrived on the foal of a donkey, fulfilling a particular prophecy and expectation of the Messiah.

When He comes again, they SHALL say it at that time. It's like they will say, "We don't care even if you're the Jesus of the Gentile Missionaries; WELCOME, One who comes on the authority of YHWH!"

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe the 'House of Judah' WAS running the temple at the time of Christs crucifixion
or do you believe it HAD BEEN mostly taken over by the 'synagogue of Satan' aka the 'generation of vipers' aka   those 

John 8
37  I know that ye are Abraham's seed but ye seek to kill me because my word hath no place in you. 
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

thus fulfilling 

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Why can't it be BOTH?! The House of Yhudah ("Judah") DID have the P'rushiym ("Pharisees" meaning "Separatists"), who were a large part of the Sanhedrin, the seventy-one rabbis who controlled the political decisions, even for the Second Temple that was present during Yeshua`s time of presenting Himself as their Messiah. As you pointed out, however, many of these men were MURDERERS at heart, following in the ways of their father the Devil.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Does it feel as if we are being ruled over with the rod of iron?

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

that the nations are being smited (smitten)?

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

that the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God are being tread by Him?  

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Christ is returning as

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And He hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Hmmmm.... It seems that you've forgotten a few steps:

FIRST, Yeshua` returns with the sign of Him coming in the clouds of the sky (LITERALLY, just as the disciples had seen Him go into the sky until a cloud hid Him from their view)! Acts 1:9-11

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This corresponds to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

SECOND, God takes to Himself His Kingdom and establishes His Messiah as His Representative.

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD  and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (to the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

THIRD, He sends His Messiah to be King to defeat His enemies at the Battle of Har-Megiddown (Tel Megiddo) 30 kilometers (18.6 miles) SE of Haifa. THIS is the battle that is foreseen in Revelation 19. It is during this time that He begins to become the World Emperor.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

I most surely would be PRAYING every single solitary day of my entire life
that that which is written above is absolutely 100% RIGHT 

....because the alternative is something I couldn't even begin to think about....

 

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Darius NAMED CYRUS by God

Hmmm... This is an interesting claim. How do you arrive at this conclusion? There were SEVERAL kings called Koresh (Cyrus) and called Daryavesh (Darius). To which one are you referring?

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

 

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love Him, and to them that keep His commandments;

Daniel 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments

Daniel 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Daniel 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

Daniel 9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

Daniel 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against Him;

Daniel 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets.

Daniel 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Daniel 9:12 And He hath confirmed his words, which He spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth for we obeyed not His voice.

Daniel 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Daniel 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from Thy city Jerusalem, Thy holy mountain because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Daniel 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face TO SHINE UPON THY SANCTUARY THAT IS DESOLATE, for the Lord's sake.

Daniel 9:18 O my God, incline Thine ear, and hear; open Thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

Daniel 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for Thine own sake, O my God for Thy city and Thy people are called by thy name.

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Daniel 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The most Holy =  the Holy of Holies isn't used of a person.

I agree!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Did the destruction of the temple end all sin, rebellion and transgressions of the people?

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

May have for the city at that time but is it 'sin free' now?

Of course not.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Did the destruction of the temple bring in everlasting righteousness to the city and people?

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Did it seal up the vision and prophecy?

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

And, how was the Holy of Holies anointed at that time?  

It wasn't.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment

to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince

shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

WHICH HAPPENED
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

WHICH HAPPENED
but not for Himself


SO AFTER  -   AKA  -  NOT BEFORE,  NOR DURING 

CHRIST IS CUT OFF. 

Just a side question: Why do you insist on changing "Messiah" to "Christ," when you should be changing "Christ" to "Messiah?"

Hebrew literature, even when penned in Greek, gives the general information first; THEN, it digs into the particulars.

 

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

THE SIMPLE FACT WE ARE TOLD IT IS 'AFTER' and not during TELLS US there is to be a separation of the last week from all the rest.  

Actually, the prophecy given to Daniel tells us that there is a split in the MIDDLE of the seventieth Seven. There's nothing in the text that separates the WHOLE Seven from the rest!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and THAT LEAVES US WITH THE REST OF THE INFO GIVEN WHICH IS

and the people 
WHICH PEOPLE? 

The Romans (who didn't exist in Daniel's time).

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

of the pRINCE  
Which prince?

Titus.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

that shall come 
THE pRINCE THAT SHALL COME

He DID come ... early in the siege of Jerusalem in 64-70 A.D. This was DANIEL'S future, but it's our PAST!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Jesus tells us  "Be not deceived by any man"
aka
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

WHAT "day?" Be sure you know that you're talking about!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

aka
"...then shall that Wicked be revealed"... whose coming is after the working of Satan with..."

No doubt, but that's NOT what the prophecy delivered to Daniel is talking about!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

So the people of Satan will come and destroy the city 
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

flood, last one lasted 5 months, what does Satan bring?  lies and deception
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

was there a 'flood' of any sort in 70AD? 

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Did desolations come to an end?

No.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

up unto the last moment
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Right.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

That's a 'little h'
And hE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

DON'T GO BY ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS, ESPECIALLY for capitalization! There are no capital letters in Hebrew, and the rules for using capital letters in Greek are different than for English!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Why would Jesus cause the oblation to cease?

Because the oblation or gift would no longer be efficacious. God had "closed down" the Temple when Yeshua` had died.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Why would Jesus confirm any sort of covenant with anyone for just a week?  Who would that be with if it were so?

Because Yeshua` was the Seed of David, the Son of David, the Heir to the Throne of David, God's "Mashiyach" = "Messiah" = "Christos" = "Christ" = "Anointed One to be King" = God's "Choice to be Israel's King!" He was "BORN King of the Jews," that is, He was born to be first the King of His own tribe, Yhudah ("Judah"), as David was king of the Jews in Hevrown ("Hebron") for SEVEN YEARS! Then, David was ASKED to be Israel's King in Jerusalem! (1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27).

2 Samuel 5:1-3 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying,

"Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel."

3 So all the ELDERS of Israel (Hebrew: Ziqneey Yisra'eel = "Older-ones of-Israel") came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a LEAGUE (Hebrew: B'riyt = "a Covenant") with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they ANOINTED (Hebrew: vayyimshchuw = and-they-anointed/rubbed") David king over Israel.

B'riyt is the SAME WORD for "a covenant" in Daniel 9:27.

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Why would Jesus be 'overspreading abominations'?

That's just a poor statement to make. HE DID NOT!!! It was the Scribes and Pharisees who were "overspreading" THEIR "abominations!"

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

even until the consummation,

and who would this be happening to? 

Those made DESOLATE! The inhabitants of Jerusalem! It would happen and DID begin to happen to the JEWS, the children of Yhudah! THEY were the ones whom Yeshua` ("Jesus") declared "DESOLATE!"

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and that determined

and what was decided...

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

shall be poured upon the desolate.

shall be poured out upon the ones made desolate, the JEWS!

The word "desolate" here is the Hebrew word "shomeem" and it is "A primitive root [as shaameem]; [meaning] to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. Devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense)." As a root, the word itself is a verb, BUT with a different pronunciation, it's a participle that acts like a singular, masculine noun, like an English gerund when we add "-ing" to a verb, like changing "clean" as a verb into a gerund like a "cleaning."

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

I just can't see it, it makes no sense to me. 

And IF GOD HAS SENT A BLINDNESS HOW CAN HE THEN TURN AROUND AND PUNISH FOR IT?  IT MAKES NO SENSE.   

This is simple: Their blindness is OF THEIR OWN MAKING! All God did was to INTENSIFY their blindness! It's like God "HARDENING the heart of Pharoah." It's like God was saying, "You want to be blind to my Messiah? Then, BE blind!" Did they not deserve their punishment when they KILLED God's Messiah to be their King? They even brought it down on themselves when they said, "His blood be on us, and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25).

And, just to stifle the anti-Semitism that might follow such a view, one must remember that there is PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND! It was the Gentiles - the Romans - who crucified Him, and He died for OUR sins! OUR sins nailed Him to that cross, even we who live almost 2,000 years after the event!

On 7/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

CAN we say 'the Jews' are the desolate and if so, what do we call what Satan and his and their doings?

IDK... D

They're WORSE than "desolate!" They don't even appear as a blip on God's radar! At least God is INVOLVED in the fate of the children of Israel. With everyone else, we read...

John 3:18 (KJV)

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Well, I believe your question was, "To whom was Yeshua` ('Jesus') speaking when He said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem [etc.]"

The answer is that He was speaking to the people who lived in Jerusalem. These were ...

(1) the Levites who ran the Temple (which included the priests and high priests, both Annas and Caiaphas) and ...

(2) the Jews, particularly the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), who were members of the Sanhedrin who made the political decisions for the Tribe/Nation of Yhudah ("Judah" [with smaller Benjamin] a.k.a. the "Southern Kingdom" which returned after the Captivity-to-Babylon-and-Persia).

Hello Retro,  

The people who lived in Jerusalem at the time didn't kill hardly any of the prophets as they lived died throughout many hundreds of years.  They did kill the most important one for sure. SO that leaves THE CITY and the events that took place throughout those times.  
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE  how often would I have gathered THY CHILDREN together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

HOW OFTEN?  MANY TIMES THROUGH OUT MANY GENERATIONS.  So I must disagree with 'the people living there at the time'.  

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jerusalems Temple is left desolate and Jerusalem will not see the LORD AGAIN

until they shall SAY  -  THOSE LIVING IN JERUSALEM SHALL SAY

BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.  

THEY WEREN'T SAYING THAT IN 70AD.  
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When He comes again, they SHALL say it at that time. It's like they will say,

Agreed

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Why can't it be BOTH?!

I agree, it can and I would go so far as to say WAS BOTH.  

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This corresponds to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28:

You will have to excuse me because I will NEVER agree with anyone that Jesus is returning under anything/time/whatever referenced with the number 6, and I am by no means a person who let the numbers rule my thoughts but my mind is never going to wrap around anything that says the number of the enemy 6, has anything to do with Christ or His return other than coming before 7 when He does.    

Sackcloth is put on for mourning, it is a sign of GRIEF. 
 
Are we told WHEN the moon becomes as blood SO AS WE CAN FIGURE OUT WHEN THIS TAKES PLACE??? 

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I found it is written BEFORE the day of the Lord come here

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I also found BEFORE the day of the Lord come here also.  

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

SO, we are told this will happen BEFORE Christs return/Lords Day

I AM NOT SAYING similar events will not take place upon the Lords return in/at the 7th, just pointing out IT TAKES PLACE BEFORE, 
AND That would be when Satan is cast to the earth in the 6th.


Now if you would like me to list the verses that actually do happen when Christ returns I can do that and they will be the ones I am sure that correspond with the Olivet discourse.  

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Just a side question: Why do you insist on changing "Messiah" to "Christ," when you should be changing "Christ" to "Messiah?"

Hebrew literature, even when penned in Greek, gives the general information first; THEN, it digs into the particulars.

Because I am like the 'unlearned' uneducated fishermen disciples as opposed to those 'learned men' who know Hebrew and Greek.  I have to look up every single word.  
Which of course makes me not care how the Greek is 'penned' UNTIL I run into conflict within the scriptures.  THEN I go to find the original words to get as close as I can.  Many times the Spirit will lead me to quickly accept what I find but sometimes, and usually time after time after time, I can not.  Which of course makes me think JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE going against thousands of years of knowledge?  And I go right back to 'just a fisherman' following the Lord.  

I sometimes wish all those who had been formally educated could see it from my perspective without all the 'rules and regulations' but alas, tis not meant to be.  

I think when I get 'Gods overall plan' down,  I will go back and work on the more accurate communication.  Till then, I don't have the time, wish want or desire.  I think the 'learned' can figure out what I am trying to say and the unlearned probably understand it as I do, at least I sure hope so.  

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Hmmm... This is an interesting claim. How do you arrive at this conclusion? There were SEVERAL kings called Koresh (Cyrus) and called Daryavesh (Darius). To which one are you referring?

Events. 
The one in the verse I put forth.
 

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Actually, the prophecy given to Daniel tells us that there is a split in the MIDDLE of the seventieth Seven. There's nothing in the text that separates the WHOLE Seven from the rest!

Actually, there are 2 splits.  


IF it indeed read like this 

AND IN THE THREESCORE AND THREE WEEKs MESSIAH IS CUT OFF 
I would say YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT,  

BUT INSTEAD IT SAYS 


Daniel 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

AND IF THERE ISN'T A split in the weeks THEMSELVES 

then the DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE IN 70 AD FOR SURE WOULD BE NO PART OF IT EITHER, would it?  coming 40 years later and all.  

Or is it time for me to quit thinking today?  IDK.  I hope you answer this one  
 

 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

DON'T GO BY ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS, ESPECIALLY for capitalization! There are no capital letters in Hebrew, and the rules for using capital letters in Greek are different than for English!

I would sure like to do my own all the time but I am going to need quite a bit more than this to change it.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Titus.

Not a prince.  Doesn't HAVE a people but commands a part of someone elses people.  Big BIT of a difference
 

 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Because the oblation or gift would no longer be efficacious. God had "closed down" the Temple when Yeshua` had died.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This is why I can't follow your timing. 

Jesus is cut off which you say IS THE SAME TIMING OF 'the oblation or gift would no longer be efficacious. God had "closed down" the Temple when Yeshua` had died'. 

BUT AS WE CAN SEE JESUS WAS CUT OFF 

THEN  the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week


SO ARE YOU SAYING THIS HAPPENS TWICE?  OR IS THIS VERSE JUST A REPEAT OF THE VERSE ABOVE?  so does it come before or after.   I DON'T SEE HOW we eat this cake and have it too.  

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

On 7/14/2021 at 1:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Why would Jesus confirm any sort of covenant with anyone for just a week?  Who would that be with if it were so?

Because Yeshua` was the Seed of David, the Son of David, the Heir to the Throne of David, God's "Mashiyach" = "Messiah" = "Christos" = "Christ" = "Anointed One to be King" = God's "Choice to be Israel's King!" He was "BORN King of the Jews," that is, He was born to be first the King of His own tribe, Yhudah ("Judah"), as David was king of the Jews in Hevrown ("Hebron") for SEVEN YEARS! Then, David was ASKED to be Israel's King in Jerusalem! (1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27).

2 Samuel 5:1-3 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying,

"Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel."

3 So all the ELDERS of Israel (Hebrew: Ziqneey Yisra'eel = "Older-ones of-Israel") came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a LEAGUE (Hebrew: B'riyt = "a Covenant") with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they ANOINTED (Hebrew: vayyimshchuw = and-they-anointed/rubbed") David king over Israel.

B'riyt is the SAME WORD for "a covenant" in Daniel 9:27.

I missed the explanation of Jesus making a covenant for JUST ONE WEEK in all that.

 

 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

On 7/14/2021 at 1:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Why would Jesus be 'overspreading abominations'?

That's just a poor statement to make. HE DID NOT!!! It was the Scribes and Pharisees who were "overspreading" THEIR "abominations!"

On 7/14/2021 at 1:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

even until the consummation,

and who would this be happening to? 

Those made DESOLATE! The inhabitants of Jerusalem! It would happen and DID begin to happen to the JEWS, the children of Yhudah! THEY were the ones whom Yeshua` ("Jesus") declared "DESOLATE!"

On 7/14/2021 at 1:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

and that determined

and what was decided...

On 7/14/2021 at 1:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

shall be poured upon the desolate.

shall be poured out upon the ones made desolate, the JEWS!

If you will look you have the question for the next part of the verse in with the answer from the previous making it all confusing.  But my question still stands.   


THE JEWS HAVE HAD A BLINDNESS PUT UPON THEM.  CORRECT?  

SO THEY HAVE HAD NO CHANCE TO CHANGE.  DO YOU BELIEVE THE SINS OF THE FATHER are placed upon the son?  biting the sour grape and all?  We are told NO. 

SO if the final generation SHOULDN'T PAY FOR the sins of their fathers and they have had a blindness placed upon them my question is

why?  
 

 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That's just a poor statement to make. HE DID NOT!!! It was the Scribes and Pharisees who were "overspreading" THEIR "abominations!"

HOW IS IT THEN JUST FOR JESUS TO MAKE THEM DESOLATE?

AND WHO DID JESUS SAY THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES WERE?  
OF THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL. VIPERS.  LIARS.  



I missed this somewhere but will address it here, 

a comment about Jesus already coming back in 70 AD.  

If Titus did it, what did Jesus need to come for?  

We are told when Jesus returns the dead are raised and those who are alive and remain are changed.  

Since once we have been 'changed' and we have received our incorruptible bodies we become like the angels in heaven neither taking nor giving in marriage, hence NO CHILDREN.  

How has anyone been born since 70 AD?  

Got me thinking in a lot of different directions that's for sure, but truly loving it.  Thank you for giving me your time and energy, iron on iron....  Hope to hear more...D
































 

[Retrobyter]

On 7/16/2021 at 6:52 AM, Selah7 said:

I agree; Christ said He would shorten the time of the reign of Satan.  I’m convinced of this, but also convinced the tribulation of Satan will be shortened to 5 months—to the time of the locust season.  
Revelation 9:5  And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. 

Shalom, Selah7,

As I've said before, the Tribulation, Greek word "Thlipsis" which means "Pressure," is NOT restricted to 7 years or any part of 7 years! It's lasted for almost 2,000 years now! Furthermore, it is a pressure that the Jews have been put under for their rejection of the Messiah. That pressure put upon the Jews sometimes affected ALL the Jews, including the believing Jews of the First Century. Sometimes, that pressure bleeds over onto those who support them, like the Gentile believers in the early "churches." The Holocaust of the Second World War affected most of the civilized world in the 1930s and '40s.

The locusts of Revelation 9 were (will be) LITERAL LOCUSTS! Locusts are like grasshoppers and can swarm quite easily, as they are experiencing out West in places like Las Vegas. In Revelation 9, however, this breed of locusts is much larger than the common locust. They come out of a pit that is opened by a meteorite strike. I believe they are a natural breed of insect that lived before the Flood of Noach's day. Originally, all animals before the Flood were herbivorous. It's only AFTER the Flood that God allowed animals and people to eat meat. Exposed to the current climate conditions, these locusts, too, will feel the need to be carnivorous; however, their mouthparts won't allow it. Instead, they will be a frustrated population that swarms, looking for sustaining food, and not being able to eat it. We're told,

Revelation 9:4 (KJV)

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

They will be larger because of the clues that we have of their mandibles seeming like the teeth of lions, the hairs on their body will be long like that of women, and their wings will make the noise of horses and chariots going to battle. Furthermore, the bumps on the front of their heads will be similar to the shapes of human faces. They will also be a breed that has stingers in their abdomens like scorpions, wasps, or bees, and they will hold their elongated abdomens over their bodies like scorpions do. The poison they inflict will be a nerve toxin that immobilizes their victims, but is not enough to kill a human being. The humans that are stung will suffer great pain, but will be unable to kill themselves, and put themselves out of their misery. In this way, "death will elude them."

Their teeth being like the teeth of lions may be similar to the mandibles of a conehead katydid found in Africa today:

See ...

https://thesmallermajority.com/2013/09/12/mozambique-diary-the-fat-coneheads-of-gorongosa/.

On 7/16/2021 at 6:52 AM, Selah7 said:

this five month period of the locust army, headed by the chief serpent, that old dragon, the devil, will soon be compared to a great flood, a flood of lies?

The king of these locusts is like the queen of a beehive or an ant nest. If you've ever seen the movie Reign of Fire, he will be similarly important in the breeding of the species. His name is NOT ho Satanas (in Greek) or haSatan (in Hebrew), which means "the Enemy," nor is it Diabolos (in Greek), which means "Slanderer." He's not called "the great dragon" nor is he called "the original serpent," ho drakoon ho megas or ho ofis ho archaios in Greek.

The name of this locust king is Abaddoon in Greek (Abaddown in Hebrew) and Apolluoon in Greek, both words meaning "Destruction" (NOT "Destroyer")! It's not that he was a "destroyer" of human beings; rather, it's that his DESTINY is to be "destroyed!" After 5 long months, he dies and the species dies with him.

On 7/16/2021 at 6:52 AM, Selah7 said:

Rev. 12:15 
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

…
And look here from God's Word. How long did the waters of the great flood prevail upon the earth?

Genesis 7:24 
And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

150 days!  FIVE MONTHS! 

This is sheer coincidence. There shouldn't be any importance put on this coincidence, for the Scriptures give it no significance!

On 7/16/2021 at 6:52 AM, Selah7 said:

…
This is the second Woe! The 6th Trumpet has sounded and all hell is breaking loose! The locust army is swarming (of course not literal insects, but men/fallen angels—Satan’s army) and Satan's angels, posing as priests of God are leading the charge before Satan, in his role as the antichrist (the fake christ), as he comes prancing into Jerusalem on his pale white horse, dressed like the King of kings.  Woe, Woe!

NO! There's NOTHING in the Scriptures that suggests that these locusts are anything BUT real locusts, real insects!

The Greek word, thoorakas, translated as "breastplates," is the accusative, masculine, plural form of thoorax (Strong's 2382), from which we get our English word "thorax!" It's the part of its body from which all six legs grow. The chitin which covers that portion of the insect is so thick "as if" to be made of iron, meaning they will be EXTREMELY hard to penetrate! 

The "crowns" (Greek: stefanoi) were as LAUREL WREATHS of gold, gold-colored antennae!

 

And, judging from the sound they make with their wings, they are probably about 15 to 18 inches long! Just as the dragonflies before the Flood grew to 18 inches long, so too these insects will have grown to enormous sizes before the Flood and had been preserved in an underground chamber - a pit with an unsounded bottom (Greek: abussos) - to be preserved for this time in the future.

On 7/16/2021 at 6:52 AM, Selah7 said:

But there are those who have the seal of God in their foreheads whom Satan and his troops cannot touch. These are the Elect, the bruisers, ready to kick dragon….

Gotta stop for now. 

We may ASSUME this to be true, but what we are TOLD is that these locusts will be restricted to harm only those who do not have God's seal upon their foreheads.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Retrobyter
to fix a few things.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hello Retro,  

The people who lived in Jerusalem at the time didn't kill hardly any of the prophets as they lived died throughout many hundreds of years.  They did kill the most important one for sure. SO that leaves THE CITY and the events that took place throughout those times.  
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE  how often would I have gathered THY CHILDREN together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

HOW OFTEN?  MANY TIMES THROUGH OUT MANY GENERATIONS.  So I must disagree with 'the people living there at the time'.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Well, I can understand that and I sympathize with your thinking; HOWEVER, we also have Yeshua`s own words to consider, which were said JUST PRIOR to this:

Matthew 23:29-36 (KJV)

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Greek: tees kriseoos tees ge-ennees = "the sentencing of-the [judgment] of-Gei-Hinnowm," the Valley of Hinnowm just outside Jerusalem where kings would set up their judgment seats)?

34 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That UPON YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, FROM THE BLOOD OF RIGHTEOUS ABEL (back in Genesis 4) UNTO THE BLOOD OF ZACHARIAS SON OF BARACHIAS, whom YE slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS generation."

THEN, He said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, THOU that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD.'"

YIELD TO YESHUA`S WORDS!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jerusalem's Temple is left desolate and Jerusalem will not see the LORD AGAIN

until they shall SAY  -  THOSE LIVING IN JERUSALEM SHALL SAY

BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.  

THEY WEREN'T SAYING THAT IN 70AD.  
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

You're right that they weren't saying that in 70 A.D.; that's why I KNOW there will be yet another Temple before our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah returns! The phrase of welcome, "BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD," comes from Psalm 118:26. Read the REST of this verse:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

Another thing is the Greek word translated "house" in verse 38 is "oikos." The word can mean ...

(a) a house, the material building, or (b) a household, family, lineage, or nation.

I believe that Yeshua` was meaning the SECOND definition, not the first, when He said,

Matthew 23:38 (KJV)

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Technically speaking, the "material building" isn't even THERE to be "desolate" or "empty!" So, I believe that He was referring to the FAMILY of the Jews in Jerusalem who were left "desolate" or "empty" all these years.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Agreed.

Good.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree, it can and I would go so far as to say WAS BOTH.  

Right.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

You will have to excuse me because I will NEVER agree with anyone that Jesus is returning under anything/time/whatever referenced with the number 6, and I am by no means a person who let the numbers rule my thoughts but my mind is never going to wrap around anything that says the number of the enemy 6, has anything to do with Christ or His return other than coming before 7 when He does.   

Don't succumb to gematria or numerology. "Six" (6) is JUST A NUMBER. It doesn't have that much significance of itself. Now, if it is USED in such a way that the context of the TEXT gives it some significance, then ... sure.

Why does God give Daniel SIX purposes for the seventy Sevens of years in Daniel 9:24? Why not seven? It's because those were the ONLY six necessary purposes that Yeshua`s two comings - His two Advents - would fulfill! Notice, too, that the prophecy doesn't NUMBER them!

If it makes you feel better, just remember how His coming is said to be AFTER the signs in the sun, moon, and stars when He said, "And THEN... ." My point was just to say that these signs in the Olivet Discourse are repeated as the signs of the sixth seal.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Sackcloth is put on for mourning, it is a sign of GRIEF. 
 
Are we told WHEN the moon becomes as blood SO AS WE CAN FIGURE OUT WHEN THIS TAKES PLACE??? 

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

"Sackcloth of hair" is the BLACK fabric that is woven from the black hair of goats in the Middle East, and THAT is the reason for its usage in the description of the sun going BLACK! It's not a symbol of mourning here. It's just an analogy to describe what the sun will look like!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I found it is written BEFORE the day of the Lord come here

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I also found BEFORE the day of the Lord come here also.  

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

SO, we are told this will happen BEFORE Christs return/Lords Day

I AM NOT SAYING similar events will not take place upon the Lords return in/at the 7th, just pointing out IT TAKES PLACE BEFORE, 
AND That would be when Satan is cast to the earth in the 6th.


Now if you would like me to list the verses that actually do happen when Christ returns I can do that and they will be the ones I am sure that correspond with the Olivet discourse.  

I'm sure you are right, and in the light of these verses, I TOTALLY agree with you. Technically speaking, the Lord DOES return AFTER these events. But, you've got to admit, they ARE the precursors to Yeshua`s Return. That's ALL I'm saying.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Because I am like the 'unlearned' uneducated fishermen disciples as opposed to those 'learned men' who know Hebrew and Greek.  I have to look up every single word.

Never put yourself down; you are a CHILD OF GOD! You are a member of the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD! You are a CO-HEIR with Yeshua` the Messiah, and you will participate in RULING AND REIGNING with Him. God has exalted you to the status of His PRECIOUS CHILD, He loves you UNCONDITIONALLY, and you have NOTHING to be ashamed about! Even if you talk about your past sins, God says to you, "What sins are you talking about? Those sins died with my Son!"

I've been a teacher, and I have been given a teacher's heart. There's no such thing as a "dumb question." The only question that is "dumb" is the one not asked!

I LIKE the fact that you "look up every single word!" That's what the Bereans did! Do you think I don't look up every single word? No matter how much I may know a verse or a topic in Scripture, I STILL MUST look up every word to be sure I'm quoting it correctly and quoting it accurately! I'm constantly correcting my posts before I hit "Submit Reply," and I STILL have to go back and re-read what I just posted. Then, I often have to EDIT my work and fix something that needs correcting. I'm harder on myself than I am on anyone else.

EVERY ONE of God's children is smart in one way or another. Some people are book smart, but others are smart in a PRACTICAL sense! For instance, my wife is better with finances than I am; so, it is smart for me to allow HER to do our finances, and she just runs major purchases by me, and we pray together about these decisions.

I can lead a person to the Lord and have done so on a number of occasions, but that's not my calling. My calling is to the ones who already call themselves believers.

Never think that you don't have something valuable to contribute. You do, and I would be a fool to think otherwise.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Which of course makes me not care how the Greek is 'penned' UNTIL I run into conflict within the scriptures.  THEN I go to find the original words to get as close as I can.  Many times the Spirit will lead me to quickly accept what I find but sometimes, and usually time after time after time, I can not.  Which of course makes me think JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE going against thousands of years of knowledge?  And I go right back to 'just a fisherman' following the Lord.  

I'm just a cog in a gear within the wheels of progress. God has just made me VERY EXACT. I can't help it. It's just my nature to want to be as PRECISE as I can possibly be. He has also put in my heart the NEED to fact-check EVERYTHING! Even then, I will occasionally miss some fact that someone else has to point out to me, like the true meaning of "pain" in Revelation 21:4.

I go against "thousands of years of knowledge," because, after THOUSANDS OF YEARS, human beings tend to SCREW THINGS UP! It's the one thing we're all pretty good at!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I sometimes wish all those who had been formally educated could see it from my perspective without all the 'rules and regulations' but alas, tis not meant to be.  

I think when I get 'Gods overall plan' down,  I will go back and work on the more accurate communication.  Till then, I don't have the time, wish want or desire.  I think the 'learned' can figure out what I am trying to say and the unlearned probably understand it as I do, at least I sure hope so.  

This is commendable, and I'm sure you will have all the opportunities you desire in the future. I'm looking forward to a THOUSAND YEARS with the Son of God in charge! We'll not only have good instruction, but we'll have the confidence to know that this instruction we receive is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and not something we have to abandon and re-learn in the future. I've already done that, and it's not fun, nor is it easy.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Events. 
The one in the verse I put forth.

I'm going to stop here for tonight, but just know that I've studied the list of the kings of Babylon and the kings of Media and Persia at some length. I'll go into those with you next.

 

[Diaste]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:59 AM, Justin Adams said:

haSatan has no reign. Yeshua is reigning supreme over everything. haSatan is just another small fry. The Almighty God gives none of His power or glory to another except His One and only UNIQUE One. Yeshua. Read the GOSPEL.

This is not really the topic here but....

"Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.  And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.  Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”" - Luke 4

"Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”" - Matthew 4

Jesus said...

"Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" - Luke 4

"“Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”" - Matthew 4

Seems Satan is ruling over the earth and he didn't even get rebuked for it by the Creator. In fact Jesus focus is who to worship, not who rules. Clearly Satan has power as seen in the ability to transport through space like in Star Trek. 

And if you really think the kingdoms of this world are ruled by Jesus then why the war and death and corruption and lies in which all rulers engage? That doesn't seem like truth in holiness. 

[Justin Adams]

46 minutes ago, Diaste said:

And if you really think the kingdoms of this world are ruled by Jesus then why the war and death and corruption and lies in which all rulers engage? That doesn't seem like truth in holiness. 

Same old tired question from unbelief. A faithless statement to confuse believers.

The Old Testament prophets foresaw the reign of the Messiah commencing upon his arrival and enthronement. Paul, for example, presented his reign as a present reality. Jesus has full authority, therefore, he reigns over all the powers and principalities, whether hostile to him or not:

(Ephesians 1:17-22) – “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you a Spirit of wisdom and understanding in gaining a personal knowledge of him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power unto us who believe, according to the energy of the grasp of his might which he energized in the Christ when he raised him from among the dead, and seated him at his right hand in the heavenlies, over-above all principality, authority, and power, and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the coming one, And did put all things in subjection beneath his feet” - (See also - Colossians 1:12-20, 2:10-15).

In his letter to the Philippians, the Apostle described how Jesus submitted to a shameful and undeserved death on a Roman cross. In response, his Father exalted him highly:

(Philippians 2:8-11) – “And in fashion being found as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient as far as death, yea, death upon a cross. Wherefore also, God uplifted him far on high and favored him with the name which is above every name, in order that, in the name of Jesus every knee might bow, of beings in heaven and on earth and underground, and every tongue might openly confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord for the glory of God the Father.”

(Romans 14:9-11) - “To this end Christ both died and rose, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living…As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

“Far above” means that Jesus already possesses the highest authority. His sovereignty is not limited to heaven, restricted to the earth, or delayed until some future point. And in these passages Paul applied the messianic promises to his present status.

In short, Jesus reigns now. His sovereignty commenced with his resurrection and exaltation to God’s “right hand.” Ever since, he has been subjugating all his enemies, just as Yahweh promised - (“He must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet” – Psalm 110:1, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

This reign will continue until he overthrows the final enemy, death. The consummation of all things will coincide with his “arrival” or parousia at the “end of the age.” The final defeat of death will mean nothing less than the bodily resurrection of the righteous, as well as the arrival of the New Creation - (1 Corinthians 15:51-57, Romans 8:18-23, 2 Peter 3:3-14).

Satan and his forces remain active in the world; however, their powers have been curtailed since the exaltation of Jesus - Already, all the “powers and principalities and world rulers” are subject to his universal lordship.

[Diaste]

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

Right, He shortened the NUMBER OF DAYS of "tribulation" WITHIN the overall time period. He shortened the TRIBULATION, not the TIME PERIOD! Yet, some Christians will suggest that the second half of the "Seven Years of Tribulation," the "Great Tribulation" they call it, will be reduced in time by some percentage or factor.

Because starting and ending points were given within the Olivet Discourse. Some call it a "punishment" on the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, the children of Judah, but it was actually a result of their own stubbornness in not accepting their King, who is YHWH GOD'S choice ("maashiyach") for HIS King of Israel, the Maashiyach ("Messiah") Yeeshuwa` ("Yeshua`"), the Christ Jesus. 

 

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

No, it includes both the severity AND the time of duration!

No. It was not the duration of the Tribulation that was limited; it was the INTENSITY of the Tribulation that was limited.

"If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short." - Mark 13

"If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." - Matt 24

This speaks to either sunrise to sunset or the 24 hour day. The intensity continues to very moment of stoppage as the criteria for cutting the days short is the saving of flesh. Hitler never slowed the murder of Jews right to the  end. This will repeat and all within a time period within a time period.

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

Picture a sine wave going across the page in a Cartesian coordinate system where time (t) is measured across the x-axis, and the intensity of the pressure (P), like the amplitude of the wave, is measured upward on the y-axis. The quadrants of the graph, when the axes are extended, are numbered "I" for the upper, right quadrant, "II" for the upper, left quadrant, "III" for the lower, left quadrant, and "IV" for the lower, right quadrant.

Normally, the center of the wave would rest half of its total amplitude above the x-axis. This would mean that the pressure was CONTINUOUS with occasional drops to zero but then jumping right back up again! This would be too much for the Jewish population, and the nation would not survive.

Now, SHIFT the sine wave vertically downward until the center of the wave is actually ON the x-axis. Now, there will still be the same length of the sine wave, but the peaks of the sine wave are seen at regular intervals. In between these peaks, the intensity would drop to zero and stay at zero for a length of time. This is how "the days of tribulation were shortened" without shortening the actual length of time. One of these peaks was the Inquisition, other peaks were the individual pogroms, one HUGE peak was the Holocaust, but all of these were given periods of reprieve when the intensity was at zero, allowing the nation time to recover. However, ALL of these persecutions were part of the overall pressure being put upon the Jews.

I can appreciate this but analogies do not fit, "For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again."

Unmatched throughout all time.

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again."

Unmatched throughout all time. Recorded twice the fact is there is no precedent.

I don't see how the sharp points would dull when the Lord tells us the days had to be shortened or no flesh would be saved.  And we see in Revelation no one can buy or sell unless they had the mark. That is the same level of intense suffering by starvation sans tidal flow. And the image that causes all to killed that do not worship the beast; where is the fact of ebb and flow here? 

 

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

Why do I say it was "put upon the Jews?" Well, who else but the Jews would even CARE if they had to flee on a Shabbat or Sabbath, a Saturday? Yet, they were instructed to plead with God that their flight not be on a Shabbat!

I see that. Jesus was talking to disciples in reality. And Jesus also said,

 “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 

9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

This does not affect the Jews in any way as Jesus is not their Messiah. They won't worry about it as they rejected Jesus and do not believe in salvation by Him and Him alone. This is the followers of the Way the Truth and the Life; and it's at the end of the age, not 2000 years past.

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

There's absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that demands that the 70th Seven (the 70th Week) should be considered the "Tribulation," let alone the "Great Tribulation."

I didn't say it should be and I argue against it all the time. 

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, when one sees that the Tribulation is mentioned in verse 9, indicating the First Century A.D. and that verses 29 through 31 say the Second Coming of the Messiah comes "immediately after the Tribulation," then one can see that the Tribulation is a WHOLE LOT LONGER than a mere 7 years, let alone 3.5 years or less!

One statement reveals the time frame of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

Since all these things did not happen yet it's not possible the Gospel account has been fulfilled in full or part. So it's clearly not 2000 years long.

This is another clue;

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

This has not been fulfilled. There are groups that monitor this and by their reckoning there are 'nations' that have not yet heard.  So if 'nations' was to be understood as 'the Roman world' then the end should have come long ago as the Gospel was heard throughout the Roman empire early on.

Since the end and ALL it's prophesied events did not come to pass then 'nations' must be the inhabited world and the gospel has not reached all the inhabitants yet. We are close, the nations are getting very angry. There is continual internal strife and the number of participants is growing.

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

Well, there's no doubt that we are in the middle of the 70th Seven, but verse 27 shows that we are in a GAP of the Messiah's making in the middle of the 70th Seven. The first 3.5 years were the "Ministry" of the Messiah during His First Advent - His First Coming, but the second 3.5 years won't begin until AFTER His Second Advent - His Second Coming, when He once again offers the Kingdom to Israel.

There is all doubt if the middle is defined as the A of D and spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Chapter 9, 11 and 12. 

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

No, we're presently IN the Great Tribulation - Thlipsis Megalee  (Matthew 24:21) - which has been going on since the Messiah left the household of the Jews "desolate" (Matthew 23:38), as predicted by the messenger to Daniel in Daniel 9:27:

No. The A of D has not happened, the beast has not declared himself god above all gods while in the Temple, the mark doesn't exist as described and the image which causes all to be killed who refuse the worship the beast or his image is not extant.

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD' (Psalm 118:26)."

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many (the Jews but not all of the children of Israel) for one week (7 years, as David did in Hebron): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation (the conclusion; the end), and that determined (the Tribulation) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews).

No. No. No. You see a word repeated and it must have the same connotation and be ideologically and particularly event and outcome connected? Maybe. Not proven here. 

I could get along with this but for a detail important and revealing;

"Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary."

This prince who is to come would also have to be the Messiah and then the people of the Messiah would have to destroy the city and the sanctuary. That is not what happened.

On 7/10/2021 at 7:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

That "overspreading of abominations" is what the rest of Matthew 23:1-37 is talking about, when Yeshua` bawls out the transcribers of the Law (the "Scribes") and the P'rushiym ("Pharisees" = "Separatists") for the way they treated others and GOD HIMSELF:

Matthew 23:1-37 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But be not ye called 'Rabbi': for one is your 'Master,' even Christ (the Messiah); and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your 'father' upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called 'masters': for one is your 'Master,' even Christ (the Messiah). 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 

14 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 "Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say,

"'Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!'

17 "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And,

"'Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.'

19 "Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men'sbones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

They were BULLIES and MURDERERS, PRETENDERS to being righteous (that's what "hypocrite" means) and getting away with it because they had the political seats of power in Israel!

No, when Yeshua` left the household of the Jews DESOLATE, He pushed the PAUSE button and put these "Weeks" on HOLD! The last 3.5 "Weeks" will start up again when He RE-offers the Kingdom to Israel, a NEW generation of Jews, still "the beloved of God for the fathers' sake!" (Romans 11:28) Meanwhile, the Jews have been reaping what they'd sown in Tribulation: Pressure from persecutions, inquisitions, pogroms, exiles, the Holocaust, and lately the terrorism, in payment for their treatment of GOD'S Messiah!

The two halves of the 70th "Week" are like bookends to the Tribulation, which has been happening for almost 2,000 years now! THAT'S what makes it the GREAT (HUGE) Tribulation.

No. Jesus was speaking to believers in Him as I pointed out earlier. The Jews too, but not exclusively. Because Jesus addressed a conflict in a specific area for a group does not abrogate other truth. 

"Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." This is to believers in Jesus at the end of the age.

[Diaste]

12 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Same old tired question from unbelief. A faithless statement to confuse believers.

Wow! I hope I don't hear you complain about ad homs in the future. Is this really called for? Shame and belittlement is the main weapon in your arsenal?

 

[Justin Adams]

6 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Wow! I hope I don't hear you complain about ad homs in the future. Is this really called for? Shame and belittlement is the main weapon in your arsenal?

 

The cap must fit well.. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

41 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The cap must fit well.. 

Ah. It's 'shoe'.  I just find it interesting how there are people who engage in the very thing they decry.

Crazy ol' world, innit?