A failed prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar, or is there another explanation?

[BibleReader]

Jeremiah 27:6, 7 (ESV):  “I have placed all these lands under the authority of My servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. I have even made the beasts of the field subject to him. 7All nations will serve him and his son and grandson, until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will enslave him.”  

“Many nations and great kings will enslave him”.  Apparently, the term “him” in these verses must apply to Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar’s son or Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson.  However, is there really evidence that any of them have ever been enslaved?  

• According to history:  
  • Nebuchadnezzar:  Babylon was overthrown by the Persian conqueror Cyrus the Great less than twenty-five years after Nebuchadnezzar's death.  Nebuchadnezzar was never enslaved according to history.  
  • Nebuchadnezzar’s son:  Nebuchadnezzar was initially succeeded by his son, Amel-Marduk, but Amel-Marduk's reign only lasted for two years before Neriglissar usurped the Babylonian throne and put him to death (some 20 years before Cyrus the Great overthrew Babylon).  
  • Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson:  There is no historical listing.  Amel-Marduk did not have any son that ascended to the throne. 
• According to the Bible:
  • Nebuchadnezzar is referred to as Belshazzar’s father. (Daniel 5:2, 11, 18, 22)  One theory is that Belshazzar’s mother was Nitocris and that she was a daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. If so, Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar. 
• The problem:
  • Whether Belshazzar was actually a son or grandson or not, it does not matter, he was killed the very night Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.  (Daniel 5:30) Therefore, neither Nebuchadnezzar, nor Amel-Marduk, nor Nabonidus (the final fate of Nabonidus is uncertain) nor Belshazzar were ever enslaved as the prophecy in Jeremiah 27:7 states.  

For those of us who uphold the Bible as God's infallible word, how can we make sense of the above-stated prophecy?  

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, BibleReader said:

Jeremiah 27:6, 7 (ESV):  “I have placed all these lands under the authority of My servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. I have even made the beasts of the field subject to him. 7All nations will serve him and his son and grandson, until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will enslave him.”  

“Many nations and great kings will enslave him”.  Apparently, the term “him” in these verses must apply to Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar’s son or Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson.  However, is there really evidence that any of them have ever been enslaved?  

• According to history:  
  • Nebuchadnezzar:  Babylon was overthrown by the Persian conqueror Cyrus the Great less than twenty-five years after Nebuchadnezzar's death.  Nebuchadnezzar was never enslaved according to history.  
  • Nebuchadnezzar’s son:  Nebuchadnezzar was initially succeeded by his son, Amel-Marduk, but Amel-Marduk's reign only lasted for two years before Neriglissar usurped the Babylonian throne and put him to death (some 20 years before Cyrus the Great overthrew Babylon).  
  • Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson:  There is no historical listing.  Amel-Marduk did not have any son that ascended to the throne. 
• According to the Bible:
  • Nebuchadnezzar is referred to as Belshazzar’s father. (Daniel 5:2, 11, 18, 22)  One theory is that Belshazzar’s mother was Nitocris and that she was a daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. If so, Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar. 
• The problem:
  • Whether Belshazzar was actually a son or grandson or not, it does not matter, he was killed the very night Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.  (Daniel 5:30) Therefore, neither Nebuchadnezzar, nor Amel-Marduk, nor Nabonidus (the final fate of Nabonidus is uncertain) nor Belshazzar were ever enslaved as the prophecy in Jeremiah 27:7 states.  

For those of us who uphold the Bible as God's infallible word, how can we make sense of the above-stated prophecy?  

I don’t think this verse is meant to be interpreted as they will be enslaved ...

Rather God had given Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon power to rule over all including animals, etc., until they themselves will be conquered/subjugated - which of course happened when the 2nd kingdom of Daniel arose, the Medes-Persians. This all happened to fulfill the Scriptures in Daniel chapter 2 - progression of the 4 kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. 

Charlie

[BibleReader]

48 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t think this verse is meant to be interpreted as they will be enslaved ...

Rather God had given Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon power to rule over all including animals, etc., until they themselves will be conquered/subjugated - which of course happened when the 2nd kingdom of Daniel arose, the Medes-Persians. This all happened to fulfill the Scriptures in Daniel chapter 2 - progression of the 4 kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. 

Charlie

Thanks for your response Charlie. I also thought about what you mentioned.  However, the word "him", at least in English, can apply to a person not a kingdom.  Whether ancient Hebrew allows for the application you make, I'm just not sure.  

[R. Hartono]

Him = his kingdom.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/jeremiah/27-7.htm

Edited February 19, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Diaste]

" 7And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him."

"...themselves of him" is added.

"serve" is;

abad: to work, serve

Original Word: עָבַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: abad
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-bad')
Definition: to work, serve

And in all the cases it's some sort of service, even 'be enslaved'.

I think just from the relationship between Jehovah and Nebuchadnezzar it's doubtful Nebuchadnezzar would be enslaved. Maybe this refers to Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom which later would be lost to the Persians and Medes but I have my doubts. It reads like all other nations would serve Nebuchadnezzar's line, which of for all we know could stretch into eternity. 

It's possible the 'time of his land come' is the end of the reign of the mighty Nebuchadnezzar and many kings and nations would rule that land after it's fall. That did happen as we know from the histories and the book of Daniel.

This is the one I'm looking at for the concept:

serve as subjects: usually with accusative, their own chiefs or kings Judges 9:28 (twice in verse); Judges 9:38; 1 Samuel 11:1; 1 Kings 5:1 +; other kings, by tribute Psalm 18:44 = 2 Samuel 22:44; Jeremiah 27:7; Jeremiah 28:14; 2 Kings 25:24 +, other nations 

"then many nations and great kings shall serve"

Is the idea they will serve Nebuchadnezzar, maybe by tribute. Not being unequivocal here, just not convinced from Jeremiah 27 that Nebuchadnezzar would be serving other nations as a captive slave. That just doesn't fit his status nor does it appear to be in keeping with the nature of the relationship between God and Nebuchadnezzar. 

A logical, and I think fair, assumption is that the King had lots of sons and daughters. Kings like him probably had concubines all over the place. It's likely Nebuchadnezzar had several sons and many grandsons. This article is interesting.

That's my two cents.

Blessings

[Michael37]

On 2/18/2021 at 6:11 AM, BibleReader said:

Jeremiah 27:6, 7 (ESV):  “I have placed all these lands under the authority of My servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. I have even made the beasts of the field subject to him. 7All nations will serve him and his son and grandson, until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will enslave him.”  

“Many nations and great kings will enslave him”.  Apparently, the term “him” in these verses must apply to Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar’s son or Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson.  However, is there really evidence that any of them have ever been enslaved?  

• According to history:  
  • Nebuchadnezzar:  Babylon was overthrown by the Persian conqueror Cyrus the Great less than twenty-five years after Nebuchadnezzar's death.  Nebuchadnezzar was never enslaved according to history.  
  • Nebuchadnezzar’s son:  Nebuchadnezzar was initially succeeded by his son, Amel-Marduk, but Amel-Marduk's reign only lasted for two years before Neriglissar usurped the Babylonian throne and put him to death (some 20 years before Cyrus the Great overthrew Babylon).  
  • Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson:  There is no historical listing.  Amel-Marduk did not have any son that ascended to the throne. 
• According to the Bible:
  • Nebuchadnezzar is referred to as Belshazzar’s father. (Daniel 5:2, 11, 18, 22)  One theory is that Belshazzar’s mother was Nitocris and that she was a daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. If so, Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar. 
• The problem:
  • Whether Belshazzar was actually a son or grandson or not, it does not matter, he was killed the very night Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.  (Daniel 5:30) Therefore, neither Nebuchadnezzar, nor Amel-Marduk, nor Nabonidus (the final fate of Nabonidus is uncertain) nor Belshazzar were ever enslaved as the prophecy in Jeremiah 27:7 states.  

For those of us who uphold the Bible as God's infallible word, how can we make sense of the above-stated prophecy?  

This prophecy most certainly did not fail.

The chain of events in which the legacy of Nebuchadnezzar as manifested in the dominance of Babylon comes to an end, with its transition from subjugator to subjugated, is well documented and verified.

See also:

Isa 14:3-6  And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,  (4)  That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!  (5)  The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.  (6)  He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

(More later if required )

[Charlie744]

20 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

This prophecy most certainly did not fail.

The chain of events in which the legacy of Nebuchadnezzar as manifested in the dominance of Babylon comes to an end, with its transition from subjugator to subjugated, is well documented and verified.

See also:

Isa 14:3-6  And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,  (4)  That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!  (5)  The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.  (6)  He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

(More later if required )

I would have said the exact same thing if I could........ but apparently, I couldn't..... but I will still have no problem taking credit for it. Charlie

[Michael37]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I would have said the exact same thing if I could........ but apparently, I couldn't..... but I will still have no problem taking credit for it. Charlie

Jumping Jellyfish. I nearly plagiarised your post. Just as well you didn't use the word "legacy", my friend!

[BibleReader]

On 3/6/2021 at 5:37 AM, Michael37 said:

This prophecy most certainly did not fail.

The chain of events in which the legacy of Nebuchadnezzar as manifested in the dominance of Babylon comes to an end, with its transition from subjugator to subjugated, is well documented and verified.

See also:

Isa 14:3-6  And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,  (4)  That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!  (5)  The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.  (6)  He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

(More later if required )

Thank you for your input.  You make reference to Isaiah 14 as having been fulfilled in the past, however, several verses of this chapter can only point to the future from what I can tell.  For example, when was Assyria broken or trampled on in the land of Israel as Isaiah 14:25 describes?  We know well that the Biblical account mentions 185,000 Assyrians being struck by an angel in the land of Assyria.  When, however, have they ever been struck in the land of Israel?  If it hasn't happened yet, is it a failed prophecy or does it point to the future?  

[Michael37]

14 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Thank you for your input.  You make reference to Isaiah 14 as having been fulfilled in the past, however, several verses of this chapter can only point to the future from what I can tell.  For example, when was Assyria broken or trampled on in the land of Israel as Isaiah 14:25 describes?  We know well that the Biblical account mentions 185,000 Assyrians being struck by an angel in the land of Assyria.  When, however, have they ever been struck in the land of Israel?  If it hasn't happened yet, is it a failed prophecy or does it point to the future?  

Prophecies of Assyria being defeated and the subsequent fulfillment of those prophecies as documented in history and the OT:

An Oracle Concerning Assyria
Isa 14:24  The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 
Isa 14:25  That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 
Isa 14:26  This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 
Isa 14:27  For the LORD of hosts has purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? 

Isa 31:8-9  Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.  (9)  And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, says the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

Sennacherib Blasphemes
2Ch 32:9  After this did Sennacherib king of Assyria send his servants to Jerusalem, (but he himself laid siege against Lachish, and all his power with him,) unto Hezekiah king of Judah, and unto all Judah that were at Jerusalem, saying, 
2Ch 32:10  Thus said Sennacherib king of Assyria, Whereon do you trust, that you abide in the siege in Jerusalem? 
2Ch 32:11  Does not Hezekiah persuade you to give over yourselves to die by famine and by thirst, saying, The LORD our God shall deliver us out of the hand of the king of Assyria? 
2Ch 32:12  Has not the same Hezekiah taken away his high places and his altars, and commanded Judah and Jerusalem, saying, You shall worship before one altar, and burn incense upon it? 
2Ch 32:13  Know you not what I and my fathers have done unto all the people of other lands? were the gods of the nations of those lands any ways able to deliver their lands out of mine hand? 
2Ch 32:14  Who was there among all the gods of those nations that my fathers utterly destroyed, that could deliver his people out of mine hand, that your God should be able to deliver you out of mine hand? 
2Ch 32:15  Now therefore let not Hezekiah deceive you, nor persuade you on this manner, neither yet believe him: for no god of any nation or kingdom was able to deliver his people out of mine hand, and out of the hand of my fathers: how much less shall your God deliver you out of mine hand? 
2Ch 32:16  And his servants spake yet more against the LORD God, and against his servant Hezekiah. 
2Ch 32:17  He wrote also letters to rail on the LORD God of Israel, and to speak against him, saying, As the gods of the nations of other lands have not delivered their people out of mine hand, so shall not the God of Hezekiah deliver his people out of mine hand. 
2Ch 32:18  Then they cried with a loud voice in the Jews' speech unto the people of Jerusalem that were on the wall, to affright them, and to trouble them; that they might take the city. 
2Ch 32:19  And they spake against the God of Jerusalem, as against the gods of the people of the earth, which were the work of the hands of man.

The Lord Delivers Jerusalem
2Ch 32:20  And for this cause Hezekiah the king, and the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz, prayed and cried to heaven. 
2Ch 32:21  And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword. 
2Ch 32:22  Thus the LORD saved Hezekiah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sennacherib the king of Assyria, and from the hand of all other, and guided them on every side. 
2Ch 32:23  And many brought gifts unto the LORD to Jerusalem, and presents to Hezekiah king of Judah: so that he was magnified in the sight of all nations from thenceforth.