Who gave the devil permission to assault Job?

[Marathoner]

16 hours ago, David1701 said:

Job justified himself instead of God - that is sin.  I still cringe, when I read some of what Job says about justifying himself before God; needless to say, when the opportunity comes along, he can do no such thing.  He was under the most extreme pressure, but it was still sin.

We'll have to disagree on this matter, brother. The Lord never once enumerated Job's sin though his friends accused him of sin. If his friends were therefore correct, why was the Lord's anger kindled against them?

I'm in agreement with @Paul James in this matter.

[Marathoner]

16 hours ago, Paul James said:

From what I know of the book of Job, it was God who pointed out Job as being a totally righteous and upright man.   It was Satan who responded with a "yes...but!'

The challenge was that it was all very well for a guy to be righteous and godly when everything is going well, but would he continue his faith if he lost everything?  God knew that Job would stand firm, and He let Satan deprive Job of family and possessions to prove Satan wrong.   Job's wife didn't share his resolve and she was prepared to give up at the first hurdle by saying to him, "curse God and die!"

When Satan saw that Job wasn't going to crumble, he upped the stakes by asseting that if Job's health was taken away, then he would lose his faith.  So God let him do that, but prevented Satan from killing Job.  Anyway, what would have been the point of killing Job?   Nothing would have been proved then.

The point of the whole scenario is that Job maintained his faith in God come hell or high water.  It shows us that even if we lose everything, including our health, and we end up on a dung heap covered in festering sores, there is no reason to be discouraged and to throw away our faith in God.

That is the crucial lesson in the book of Job, and that is why we have it in our Bible.

Well said, brother. Job is an astonishing book, rich with meaning which speaks about our condition on this earth as men. Job's lament is our own lament and it's noteworthy the scripture testifies that,

In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong. (Job 1:22 NKJV)

If Job were indeed to sin, wouldn't the scripture enumerate this truth? If Job sinned at any time, would the Lord have declared him an upright and blameless man?  

[David1701]

5 hours ago, Marathoner said:

We'll have to disagree on this matter, brother. The Lord never once enumerated Job's sin though his friends accused him of sin. If his friends were therefore correct, why was the Lord's anger kindled against them?

I'm in agreement with @Paul James in this matter.

Job's friends made false accusations against Job.  They thought that God was punishing him for wickedness (and they blamed Job for all kinds of sins that Job had not committed), which was untrue.

The Lord made it clear that Job was seeking, latterly, to justify himself, rather than God, which is sin.

Job 40:1-8 (ESV)

 1 And the Lord said to Job: 

  2  “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it.”

Job Promises Silence

  3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 

  4  “Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.

  5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer;
twice, but I will proceed no further.”

The Lord Challenges Job

  6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: 

  7  “Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

  8 Will you even put me in the wrong?
Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?

Look particularly at verse 8, it seems very clear to me.

 

[R. Hartono]

On 4/2/2021 at 12:02 AM, Riverwalker said:

Okay its time to stir the pot again  but I am going to put forth an idea about Job, that I see in the scriptures that flies in the face of traditional teaching.  It is just an idea and I am more than willing to be wrong about it...but it just makes me go hmmm

Yes God does point out Job to satan,

9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

But when God  says

12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

Is he tearing down that hedge of protection, or is he revealing a breach in it? A breach that Job Created by fear.

When Job says in chapter 3:

25 For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me,
And what I dreaded has happened to me.

Has he given place to the devil? The case can be made that fear and faith are complete opposites and that one is ceding power to God and one is giving it to satan.

I am interesting in any and all thoughts.

How will God knows what kind of faith u hv if u r not tested ?

 1 Peter 1:7 The trial of your faith being much more precious than gold.

[Riverwalker]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:20 PM, R. Hartono said:

How will God knows what kind of faith u hv if u r not tested ?

 1 Peter 1:7 The trial of your faith being much more precious than gold.

Is there something God does not know? The purpose of the testing of our faith is for OUR benefit, OUR maturity

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing

[Whyme]

On 4/14/2021 at 10:20 PM, R. Hartono said:

How will God knows what kind of faith u hv if u r not tested ?

 1 Peter 1:7 The trial of your faith being much more precious than gold.

Or how will we know?

Edited April 16, 2021 by Whyme

[WilliamL]

On 4/14/2021 at 10:05 AM, Marathoner said:

If Job sinned at any time, would the Lord have declared him an upright and blameless man?

He certainly must have sinned at some time, for there is none righteous but God. Otherwise Jesus would not have been the only one who never sinned, because He was the only one not descended from father Adam.

If Job never sinned, he would never have died.

Ergo, at the time Job was written, Job's past sins had been forgiven by God. But the consequences of those past sins may have left him vulnerable to the accusation of Satan, which is the point I have been making all along.

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 4/1/2021 at 2:09 PM, David1701 said:

there is no evidence that Job's fear is the reason why God allowed the devil to torment Job like this.

Actually there is... IF one accepts the whole counsel of God.

Jesus said in Revelation 21:8 the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

 

So, we know being in fear and being afraid and cowardly is a sin according to Jesus because those doing this will be thrown in to hell.

In the story about Job, you'll notice that when the devil is talking to God he mentions that God had placed a hedge of protection around Job which is why the devil could not touch him up till that point.  And, in the story you'll notice it says job kept doing the same sacrifice again and again because he was in fear that his children would curse God. (see Job 3:25)

This establishes that Job was actually having a sin problem in his life because he was in fear.  Because of this sin, satan has a right to come against Job which is why the hedge of protection was removed by the Lord because if we live after the flesh (sin) we reap corruption (Gal 6:7,8)

The devil did not even know the hedge was broken until the Lord told the devil was Job was in his hands already and the Lord limited satan so he could not kill Job. 

Before Jesus Christ went to the cross and was resurrected in victory, the devil had the right to go before the Lord’s throne in Heaven which was based upon the authority God had given to Adam (let man have dominion – see Genesis 1:26-28).

After the cross the devil cannot go in to the third Heaven where the Father’s throne is anymore like he used to be able to do under the old covenant, not after Hebrews 9 where Jesus used His own Blood and cleansed the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than those of bulls and goats as under the old covenant.

The attack on Job was limited by the Lord and stopped when Job did a sacrifice in faith for his friends which would have been when he got back on track and was no longer in fear and this is when the hedge of protection from the Lord went back up protecting Job and you’ll notice in the story that Job did quite well after that because of the blessing of the Lord.
 

The Lord called Job righteous because the sin Job did by being in fear was something that was done in ignorance at the time.  The Lord says in Romans 4:15 where no law is, there is no transgression.

Just like Paul found mercy in the eyes of the Lord because his sin was done in ignorance. (1 Timothy 1:13).  Since Job was heart right before the Lord and did not have the entire Word of God in his hands to study like we do today, the Lord had mercy on Job and considered him to be a righteous man.

The reason being ignorant for us today doesn’t last for very long as a new born babe in Christ is simply because the Lord has provided us with the whole counsel of God in written form and He has sent the Holy Spirit to be out Teacher to lead and guide us in to ALL Truth and take what belongs to Jesus and will show it unto us (John 16:13-15).  Jesus said that God’s Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

In Luke 12:48, Jesus said For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  More is required of us since the Lord has given us far more to work with than what Job had in his day.

Christians are called to “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7), and those not doing this will experience what Job experienced because they aren’t abiding IN CHRIST which gives the devil an open door in to their lives due to the hedge of protection the Lord has provided to not be protecting them.  The Lord’s protection is only applicable to those that are IN CHRIST

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Mozart's Starling]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:04 PM, Riverwalker said:

Paul signed up for the job. He could have refused it. But he did not, he girded his loins, counted the cost and stepped up into hells fury

Job was minding his own business.  A righteous man, but a man of fear.

I see a lot of that in myself.  But His grace is sufficient for me.

I do find the notion that God let Job's family be killed to prove something to satan just to be a little, un-Godlike.  Which is why I think it was the fear that opened the hedge of protection, and not a grudge match between God and satan

God having perfect knowledge is always justified his actions. It might seem odd allow this to happen to the family but clearly this is the case in real life. The whole point is the best of people can be put through the worst things but you should still cling to God through it all. Being a righteous believer is not a guarantee of a happy strifeless life in fact it is the opposite in many cases. God being sovereign means Satan can only do what he is allowed and this story just further proves that.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Mozart's Starling

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Quote

I do find the notion that God let Job's family be killed to prove something to satan just to be a little, un-Godlike.

The thought of God being "un-Godlike" came from the enemy.

The devil had the legal right to attack job... because job in ignorance was walking in fear which is a sin and that caused the hedge of protection God put around job to be pierced

He lost his family ultimately due to his own actions... and we should note in the end Job did not get depressed and end up with "PTSD" and have to be under the care of shrinks like modern day snowflakes of today would need.