Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[Paul James]

8 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

I have seen it done right and wrong, and when it is done right it is beautiful, but when people are all fleshed out and looking to be seen, prideful and "Grabbing The Blessing"  it is very wrong and very harmful

My base definition of Charismatic is the worship and celebration of God through Spirit Filled Praise and Worship some times manifesting in workings of the Gifts of the Spirit, which I do believe are still in effect for today.

Classic case of doing it wrong , in all my time in the charismatic church and coming up to the Altar to be prayed for I never once was "slayed" in Spirit, but in the beginning I did fall back because I thought it was expected. When I stopped falling some of the preachers would literally push me until I fell.  This was all about the preacher and the powers Of his "gift"

And then there were times I was with a group of believers and we prayed and praised and the Holy Spirit was there, moving on us, sometimes we were quiet and sometimes someone-s spoke a "word\" and it was right on and lovely

In my time with the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, I have seen people falling backward and getting up as if nothing has happened to them.  I have also seen people being rocked off balance so they have fallen backwards.   I saw in one meeting where all the ones who came forward for prayer were lined up and the preacher went from one to the other, laid hands on their heads, and they fell backwards like dominoes.  That made me see that it was all theatre and no Holy Spirit.

When the Holy Spirit causes a person to fall down it is usually on their faces under conviction of sin in the presence of God, and when they get up they are radically changed.  It is usually a one-time event never to be repeated.  Certainly not to be repeated every Sunday at the altar call.

The other genuine way was in Kathryn Kuhlman meetings where people came up to the stage to testify of healing that took place in the meeting (these healings took place spontaneously either in the meeting or with people on the way to the meeting, and most often of incurable medical conditions verified later by medical professionals).  What happened was that when Kathryn touched them, not on the head, to convey a blessing to them, their knees buckled and they fell downward and not backward.  It was only when they had fallen slowly to the floor that they were supported to lie in a comfortable position until they recovered.   The ones who went down testified to having such a sense of peace and relaxation that they couldn't stay on their feet.

But what I saw in the "theatrical" performances was that those who fell backward went stiff like a statue and fell directly backward.  This did not have the characteristic of peace and relaxation in the Spirit.   The only time that people fell backward in the New Testament was when Jesus identified who He was, and the whole crowd who came to arrest him fell backward to the ground.  This was an act of power to show that no one could force Jesus to be arrested, and that His arrest was totally voluntary on His part.

[Paul James]

44 minutes ago, Whyme said:

They said i denied Christs power because i had depression. Not exactly helpful to a person who needs edification. I feel richly blessed however. Im on medication but im not sure i even need it anymore. I have Jesus within and im so blessed. He helps me to obey God and to think proper thoughts. My doctor sounds surprised that i am my own counselor. My doctor has been trying to get me into counseling but i resist because my problems are personal. But my doctor admits i seem to be doing a good job counseling myself. I think its Gods Spirit, who teaches me to think good thoughts. I made so many mistakes in life that the memory of them haunts me. How do i escape that torture? Thank God for the Lord who helps me. Even though i have infirmities of the mind and a haunting past, Gods grace sustains me, and he guides me. It took a while for me to learn, and thank God i have made it through this far. May the Lord be with me always and not let me stumble. Anyway, i hope im not derailing your thread brother.

You are not derailing the thread.  Some have a very narrow view of depression.  They think it always has to come from the devil.  Such is definitely not the case.  There are three main causes:  a series of traumatic events causing undue stress, a medical condition causing an imbalance of chemicals in the brain, or a spiritual cause.  Each requires a different therapy.  The first would require counselling, the second may require medical intervention, and the third may require spiritual intervention.

A good book to read that shows all three causes is Neil Anderson's "Finding Hope Again".   My daughter at the age of 17 went through two years of clinical depression through being bullied at school and having six of her classmates and a teacher at another school lose their lives through a flash flood while on an outdoor education expedition.  We went through the counselling process, and she is still taking anti-depressants as preventative medication.   I found Neil Anderson's book a great help to understanding what she went through and taught me to be totally positive toward her and to emphasize her positive attributes.  This was a very effective part of the healing process.

If you can get that book, then you would be doing yourself a great favour by reading it.

[Guest kingdombrat]

As far as falling backwards, I think when people are praying and lost in God, they're more apt to be off balanced. 

 

However, I've seen bigger Churches have what I call [Catchers].  And like Paul mentioned already, it was a show put on by the Preacher and not a true act of God.

 

And then, I've seen something really interesting.   I attended Lester Sumrall's Church in South Bend, Indiana for years before he went on to be with the Lord and his son took over as Pastor.   But Lester would give the altar call and many would go up.   But he would not lay his hand on the forehead which is the best way to push people backwards, he simply with a finger gently just touched them as he walked by.   Ironically, and I know because he touched me the same way before [I did not fall or anything] nor was there any pressure from his touch, it was simply enough to make contact.   But I've seen people drop like a brick from up high, but they never crashed into the floor, sometimes it looked as if they were floating down in slow motion.   It really intrigued me.

Edited May 8, 2021 by kingdombrat

[Justin Adams]

She shoved me forward, indicating I was in need of ministry and prayer.

The girl/minister looked over my shoulder and pointing to her told her to sit.
I stood behind her as this girl/minister quietly and forcefully told the demons to go!
She cried out and I grabbed her to steady her as many unclean spirits were sent packing. She was hard to hold onto. She was crying and sobbing. Then she went quiet and stopped struggling.
The girl/minister then quietly prayed and encouraged her to hold onto her deliverance [she had been a witch and necromancer].

It was awesome! I can remember it all like it was yesterday.

The Lord is Ruling and Reigning thru His Holy Ones on earth RIGHT NOW.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Justin Adams

[enoob57]

People seeking fulfilment in this first created event... knowing it will not be remembered! Pretty much a people who are trying to substantiate their faith through the flesh...

[David1701]

20 minutes ago, Chicken coop2 said:

I like everything in this post.  As for the part I made bold, I am quite happy to add this word to my vocabulary.  I felt the same way when someone asked if I were a born again Christian.  It seemed so strange.  When one becomes a Christian it is like being born again.  They made it sound like there are two kinds of Christians and only those called born again Christians are real Christians.

  As an ESL teacher who has lived and worked most of my career in foreign countries and has studied numerous languages it would sound strange to come up with a way to say born again Christian as apposed to just saying Christian in other languages.  Native speaking Christians of various languages would have no idea what you were talking about. 

All genuine Christians have been born again; but, there are many professing Christians who have not; in fact, there are many professing Christians who will not have a clue what you are talking about, if you mention the expression "born again".  Just think of all the Liberals and Roman Catholics.  Liberals will treat it as a mere figure of speech, not realising that a Christian's spirit really has been brought to life.  Roman Catholics have been told that they were born again, when they were sprinkled, as infants.

It is because of things like the above that the expression "born again Christian" came to be common: it distinguishes between the true and the false; it contrasts the living and the dead.

[Whyme]

Another bad experience with what i think were charismatics, i called up a prayer line to get prayer one time, and i was asked if i had been filled with the Spirit. I said i believe i have Gods Spirit and i was told that if i didnt speak in tongue's i wasnt filled with Gods Spirit. This to me is unsound doctrine.

[David1701]

27 minutes ago, Whyme said:

Another bad experience with what i think were charismatics, i called up a prayer line to get prayer one time, and i was asked if i had been filled with the Spirit. I said i believe i have Gods Spirit and i was told that if i didnt speak in tongue's i wasnt filled with Gods Spirit. This to me is unsound doctrine.

Yes, that is unsound doctrine; however, not all those who believe that the gifts of Holy Spirit are for today agree with that unsound doctrine.

Many Charismatics confuse being filled with the Holy Spirit (i.e. led by him, in your daily life, and filled with his presence) with gifts of the Holy Spirit, but these are separate matters.

[Paul James]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

Yes, that is unsound doctrine; however, not all those who believe that the gifts of Holy Spirit are for today agree with that unsound doctrine.

Many Charismatics confuse being filled with the Holy Spirit (i.e. led by him, in your daily life, and filled with his presence) with gifts of the Holy Spirit, but these are separate matters.

For years I was programmed with the AOG doctrine that the baptism with the Spirit is an event subsequent to conversion to Christ and that the initial evidence is tongues.

But in later years, having not being influenced by that doctrine for around 30 years, I took another look at the New Testament examples of being baptised with the Spirit and Paul's teaching in Galatians.  What I found was that Scripturally there is strong evidence that the baptism with the Spirit and conversion to Christ are essentially the same thing.

The transformation that came with the coming of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was full conversion to Christ.  The 120 in the upper room were believers, but were not yet converted to Christ.  This was a one-off transition stage between Jesus breathing into each of them the seal of the promise of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit coming to indwell them fully converting them to Christ.

Cornelius and his household were baptised with the Spirit as soon as they heard and believed the Gospel.  They were converted to Christ on the spot, and then Peter had them baptised in water.

The Samaritans believed the Gospel that Philip preached, but were fully converted to Christ when Peter and John arrived to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

The 12 disciples of John the Baptizer were believers but not converted to Christ.  When Paul shared the Gospel with them, the Holy Spirit fell on them and they were converted to Christ.

Paul asked the Galatians if they had received the Spirit through the works of the Law or through faith.  He clearly implied that being converted to Christ by grace through faith was exactly the same as receiving the Spirit, and they received the Spirit through the baptism with the Spirit.

So the initial evidence of the baptism with the Spirit is the total transformation that comes through being converted to Christ.  Saying the sinners prayer does not cause conversion.  Being baptised with the Spirit does and that comes through earnestly seeking God for it.  The Apostle John says that the evidence that we have the Spirit is that we love God with all our hearts and love others as we love ourselves.

The Scripture also says that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ, that is the Holy Spirit sent from the glorified Christ, are none of His.  Therefore unless a person is baptised and filled with the Spirit they don't belong to Christ.

The key to this is that anyone turning to Christ must do it with all his heart and mean real business with God.  They are the ones represented by the seed falling on good ground.  The ones falling on shallow ground are those who make an initial profession for Christianity but don't follow through to make their calling and election sure.  They join a church and make their profession of Christianity for status or cultural reasons instead of having a true heart for Christ Himself.  These are the ones who fall short of being really filled with the Spirit and having the full transformation that comes with a genuine conversion to Christ.

These "shallow ground" Christians can speak in tongues, prophesy, take up ministry roles in churches, even become pastors.  But it is all of the flesh and not the Spirit, and before long they show their true colours.  Therefore, speaking in tongues is not the reliable indication that one is indwelled by the Spirit.  There are many who speak in tongues during meetings, but fail to show real love to others, or demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.

The gift of tongues is just another tool in the Spiritual toolbox, and just like a fake mechanic using a socket set to do a repair on a car, the truly qualified A grade mechanic can use the same tools.  Being able to use a set of tools doesn't make a mechanic, but having the appropriate trade qualifications enables the mechanic to use the tools effectively.

In the same way, speaking in tongues and prophesying doesn't prove a person is truly converted to Christ and filled with the Spirit.  But a truly converted believer, baptised and filled with the Spirit can use the gifts of tongues and prophecy to great effect for the building up of the body of Christ.

 

[R. Hartono]

20 hours ago, Paul James said:

Today I have been part of a spirited discussion in the John MacArthur Facebook group concerning his quote that the Charismatic Movement is dangerous.  Some of the commenters have accused Charismatics of being demon possessed.

I referred to 1 John by way of challenge to say that accusing brothers and sisters in Christ of being heretical, demon-possessed and therefore dangerous to the body of Christ, is expressing a form of hatred for Charismatics in general and therefore falling well below what the Lord requires of the standard of love toward our brothers and sisters in Christ that show evidence of being truly filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said that having even negative and resentful thoughts about others is equivalent to hating them.   Of course, the anti-Charismatic folk on the Facebook page accused me of being hypocritical, even though I'm not even a Charismatic, but a Presbyterian in a Union Methodist/Presbyterian church.

So, I asked them how they defined "Charismatic", and so far they have not answered me.

I wonder, what is your definition of "Charismatic"?  It would be interested to know what people thought of Charismatics and who they actually are.

Charismatic is like the early church of Jerusalem with the gift of Holy Spirit on Pentecost Day, later Paul described the gifts of Holy Spirit in 1 Cor. 12:8

But many are just fake now. Not all.

Edited May 9, 2021 by R. Hartono