The Kingdom is in out midst? Luke 17:20-21

[David1701]

38 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And what is my response to the op?

What is my response to your op-reply? 

Why isn't "within you" an appropriate translation for Luke 17:20-21? Why does it NOT "fit the context much better," as was claimed? Because the Pharisees do not have the Spirit nor the kingdom within them. They were trying to destroy the King of the kingdom (and doing so in ignorance their actions were sovereignly decided long before any of them ever drew their first breath!). 

 

The moment we agree the Pharisees don't possess the kingdom within themselves it precludes such a translation. And since the Greek can be translated otherwise it should be translated otherwise AND interpreted or understood otherwise. The Pharisees did not at that time have the KoG within them. I read, "No, the Pharisees to whom the Lord was speaking did not have the kingdom of God within them." Can you not see how that conflicts with "It's technically a possible translation; but "within you" fits the context much better"? 

 

"Within you" fits the context but the Pharisees don't have the KoG within them.

Intended or not, that is the argument asserted. The problem is this: if the Pharisees did NOT have the KoG within them then that is NOT the context and "within you" then does NOT "fit the context".

 

 

 

 

You've read D. A. Carson's book, "Exegetical Errors," yes?

 

 

.

I have already answered your point about "within you" not referring to the Pharisees.  I agreed that it does not refer to them.  I said that the "you" is a general "you", not referring to the Pharisees.  In other words, "...the kingdom of God is within you." refers to the character of the kingdom of God - it does not come with outward appearance but is "within you" (equivalent to "within people").

The problem with the translations "...in your midst" or "...among you", is that they don't contrast with outward appearance, which contrast is the point that the Lord is making.

[Heleadethme]

I don't believe it's an accident that Jesus used a Greek word with a double meaning.  He was often and maybe always speaking in spirit.  He is not confined to obeying the rules of exegesis, or any of man's rules, surely.  That's why we need the Holy Spirit to understand. (Scripture even says to declare those things that be not as though they were, so there could have been that aspect in what Jesus was saying.)

The Greek word used here for "within" - entos - can mean either within or among, in the midst of. Applied personally to individuals the kingdom is within (or potentially within), applied to a group or a nation of people it is in the midst of them, or potentially in the midst of them.  (And the kingdom of God is bound up in a Person....its King...it comes with Him and through Him.)  That particular Greek word is only used one other time in NT scripture that i could find, even though the word "within" is used many times but using another Greek word "en".  The only other time we see the Gk word "entos" is in Matt. 23:26, again Jesus speaking to the Pharisees telling them they needed to cleanse "within the cup and plate that the outside may be clean also."  Or in the midst of the cup and plate applied to the whole group of Pharisees, that the group may be clean within.  So I am convinced it's no accident that He chose that particular word.

As others are saying, I agree that He is making the point that the kingdom is an inward spiritual reality, as opposed to being an outward earthly kingdom that one can see and point to.  The Jews had been looking and hoping for a flesh and blood king to sit on a physical throne ruling a physical geopolitical kingdom but Jesus was pointing them to the spiritual kingdom of God, as well as I believe pointing them to Himself in the midst of them as being the head of the kingdom and the bringer of that kingdom.  His word is perfect, we can only admire and praise Him!

Edited May 12, 2021 by Heleadethme

[enoob57]

NT:1787

 

1787. e)nto/$ entós; adv. from ‎en ‎(1722), in. Within. Used also as a prep. with the gen. (Luke 17:21, "the kingdom of God is within you," meaning it is located in your heart and affections, not external). With the neut. def. art., ‎tó entós‎, the inside (Matt 23:26; Sept.: Ps 39:4 Ps 109:22).

 Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament © 1992 by AMG International, Inc. Revised Edition, 1993

The issue lies in the theological concepts as He (Jesus) is speaking to crowd: Pharisees, Disciples, Jews present and possibly gentiles…  The Pharisees induce the question-

Luke 17:20a  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come KJV

So now is Jesus addressing the Pharisees [knowing Jesus’ appraisal of them]
       John 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will   
                          do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the
                           truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he
                           speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. KJV

Jesus also spoke to Nicodemus John 3 who was not of the same ilk as these above…

OR
Is Jesus addressing the others?

Because the Word Itself does not specify one must not specify either… in doing this then considering all Jesus is referring to is the Spiritual Kingdom that He has come to set up and how that kingdom shall exist within the individual ‘Ye must be born again’…

 

On 5/9/2021 at 12:40 AM, Willa said:

When we are born again of the Holy Spirit Christ comes to indwell us.  When we submit to Him as our Almighty King and Lord, and we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, His kingdom resides within us.  I also believe that He has heaven awaiting us, a Millennium Kingdom, and a New Heaven and New Earth.

 Rom 8:09. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 Rom 8:10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 Rom 8:11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 2Co 13:5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

 

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

????? Do you believe Jesus was speaking the Greek language when he spoke to the Pharisees that day? Most theologians, historians, textual critics, etc. agree Jesus spoke Aramaic. While undecided there is also some consensus that Matthew's gospel was not originally written in Greek like the other gospels but was written in Aramaic and then translated into Greek using Mark because the Greek in Matthew is different. It is the kind of Greek that would be seen if translating from Aramaic. 

Hellenism was a big influence in Judaism by the first century and Greeks had been living in Israel for many centuries going back well into the minor prophets so it is possible Jesus and other Jews spoke Greek but between the alternatives of Aramaic and Hebrew why would Jesus be speaking Greek to Pharisees?

Where was the view Jesus taught in Greek garnered? Got a source for that?

I thought Greek was the prevalent language in Israel at the time, can't remember how I came to that understanding.  However, even if it was translated from Aramaic, it's still interesting that a Gk word with a kind of double nuanced meaning was only used there and in that one other instance (Matthew), while not used anywhere else in the NT.  And it strikes me as being beautifully harmonious with the truth....it makes sense because we are His temple both individually as well as corporately..... Jesus dwells "within" the believer individually, as well as that He dwells in the "midst" of or "among" us corporately  as His Body.  We are in Him and He is in us....His kingdom is within us as well as that we are in His kingdom.

 

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Greek is a very nuanced language. That is one of the reasons translating it into the more blunt English proves problematic at times. Those problems are one the reasons rules of exegesis were developed. Some of the rules of exegesis are to not proof-text, consider the contexts (immediate, local, and global), identify the writer, the purpose of the writer, the audience to whom the words were spoken and hos the original hearers and then original readers would have understood those words. 

How many folks in this thread do you see practicing these precepts? The question asked, after all, is explicitly about the meaning of the phrase "in your midst," and given the fact the Pharisees did not have the kingdom as defined in this thread within them the meaning "within them" cannot be correct. 

The kingdom is within us, as well as around us, past, present and future, but it was not within the Pharisees that day. 

 

 

 

And it was either Matthew or a subsequent translator of Matthew who chose the Greek "entos," not Jesus. 

I'm sure exegeting can be useful up to a point, but mostly what we need are ears to hear, is that not what the bible says in quite a few places?  We see Jesus at times reprimanding the disciples for being slow and dull of hearing, not for failing to exegete.  I never read anything about exegesis in scripture and it doesn't seem that Jesus approached scripture that way, as far as I know......can't think of any place where He was exegeting OT scripture.  He received His understanding from the Father.  "For what do we have that we didn't receive?"  "Blessed are you Simon bar Jonah for flesh and blood did not reveal that to you, but my Father in heaven."

Of course that is not to say we should just throw out our common sense, I'm sure most of us take into account those practical considerations too (the best we can at least, most of us not being highly trained and highly mentally disciplined etc) when we're reading and mulling over scripture, but hopefully above all that we are prayerfully looking to the Lord for understanding.

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Which is exactly why I started one single very plain and simple question that was specific to the verse in question and upon which every single one of us should and could agree upon: Was the KoG within the Pharisees? No exegesis needed to answer that question. The answer to that question necessarily precludes an otherwise possible interpretation and it precludes it without a lengthy exegesis (which was also provided).  

The answer is plain and simple. 

For those who have ears to hear and understand. 

What I received from the Lord is that Jesus was giving a nuanced answer, that is my understanding and belief.

[David1701]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

It does refer to them. It does not refer about them. 
 

This is a solecism.  You (general "you", not referring only to Josheb, but to people in general) refer to something or someone, you do not refer about anything.

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Jesus is speaking to them and them alone when he says it. It is definitely to them. We would otherwise normally think it was about them were there nothing to indicate it wasn't about them but in this specific case we know it is not about them even as it is being spoken to them. 

It was spoken to them but it was not spoken specifically about them.  Now, having agreed with you about this, perhaps you have not noticed that this places you in a quandary.  Since it is not specifically about them, the "you" cannot be specifically about them either (as in "...the kingdom of God is within you."), this means that your objection is at once defeated and you have no argument against "...within you.".

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Yes, but the moment you did that the specified context was lost. Jesus is not talking about Christians, either. There are no Christians at that time. Every single poster here who ignored what is specified and made that verse about Christians and the Christian's experience of the kingdom outright ignored and abandoned the specified context. 

I didn't say that the passage was about Christians.  It was about people, in a general way, but only about people secondarily; in fact, it was primarily about the kingdom of God and its place within people, rather than being outwardly observed.

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And in doing so the significance of the passage was also abandoned. 

uhhhhhh....... 

Yeah, I could get behind that. Sorta. The Phars and Sads were definitively a hypocritical lot. However, there is much more happening in that situation than just the difference between outward appearance. There is a reason, for example, these words are spoken to the Phars and not the Sads. One reason, remember, is likely that the Pharisees believed in a resurrection. Remember: of the two sects scripture reports only Phars ever converting; never a Sad. Since the KoG is tied to the resurrection we have reason for understanding the uniqueness of that conversation from Jesus' pov. The statement, "The kingdom is in your midst" has an entirely different to people who believe you live, then die and there is then nothing. Furthermore, At this point Jesus was approaching Jerusalem where a few days after that conversation he will be killed by those guys to whom he is talking and the victory of the kingdom over everything will be realized. Jesus' teaching has slowly moved from soteriology to eschatology. He's just healed a man and that has prompted inquiry from the Phars, the hypocritical, legalistic ever-hearing-but-never-understanding Pharisees. They ask about the kingdom and he tells those in whom the kingdom does not dwell that it is in their midst (not within them), and then he turns to the disciples and the Day, the Day of the Son of Man. Eschatology, not soteriology. 

 

Having looked into it a bit more, I'm no longer convinced that translations like "among you" or "in your midst" are even technically correct, never mind contextually.  Here is a quote about the relevant verse, from acknowledged NT Greek expert A.T. Robertson.

Robertson's Word Pictures (re. Luke 17:21)

"Within you (εντος υμων). This is the obvious, and, as I think, the necessary meaning of εντος. The examples cited of the use of εντος in Xenophon and Plato where εντος means "among" do not bear that out when investigated. Field (Ot. Norv.) "contends that there is no clear instance of εντος in the sense of among" (Bruce), and rightly so. What Jesus says to the Pharisees is that they, as others, are to look for the kingdom of God within themselves, not in outward displays and supernatural manifestations. It is not a localized display "Here" or "There." It is in this sense that in Lu 11:20 Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God as "come upon you" (εφθασεν εφ' υμας), speaking to Pharisees. The only other instance of εντος in the N.T. (Mt 23:26) necessarily means "within" ("the inside of the cup"). There is, beside, the use of εντος meaning "within" in the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus saying of Jesus of the Third Century (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 426) which is interesting: "The kingdom of heaven is within you" (εντος υμων as here in Lu 17:21)."

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The kingdom is not coming with observable signs; it is in your midst, Mr. Pharisee. It is in your midst but it is NOT within you, Mr. Pharisee. 

Except that the kingdom of God was not in the midst of the unbelieving Pharisees.  It was within the believers.

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It is and will be within my disciples.....

.....but your house has been left to you desolate, Mr. Pharisee .

The kingdom is in your midst, not within you, Mr. Pharisee.

That is the stated context(s) of the passage.

 

The kingdom of God is not stated to be in the midst of unbelieving Pharisees.

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I trust you'll forgive the liberty I just took but I also trust the point is made, understood, and received. 

Understood, and the erroneous part rejected.

 

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Jesus is not just making a point of contrast, and if that's all he was doing then the point was lost on his audience and..... Jesus is never fruitless. 

That's right, it was not only about the contrast between internal, spiritual reality and external, fleshly expectation (it was also about the fact that the kingdom of God was a present reality, within believers, not an awaited earthly restoration of Israel).

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As Jesus speaks to the disciples he references Noah. One will be taken and one will remain. Modern rapturists think this passage is about the rapture and they interpret the text to say Christians will be taken away, removed off the planet to be with Jesus but this is a gross misreading of the text because in the days of Noah the ones who were taken away were the people God destroyed. It was those who remained, eight of them in total, who went on to live in a covenant relationship initiated by God. 

Yes.

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Soteriology meets eschatolgy. 

And it is NOT about a rapture where Christians get removed from the planet to be with Jesus in the sky. The kingdom was then and there before Calvary in their midst. 

 

Also yes, to the present reality of the kingdom of God then; but, it was not in the midst of the unbelieving Pharisees, it was inside the believers.

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Spoken to the Pharisees, but not about the Pharisees. Spoken to the Pharisees, but about his disciples. Spoken to the Pharisees about the disciples and not the Pharisees concerning conditions that were then already in existence but would be further realized very soon at Calvary and Pentecost. 

The kingdom of God was in the disciples, who were not in the midst of the Pharisees.

 

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We should NOT proof-text Luke 17:21. It is NOT definitive on its own. 

I know of no Scripture that contradicts the kingdom of God being within us (I'm sure there is none).

[Heleadethme]

50 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Anything any believer ever receives that conflicts with the written word is not from the Lord. God never contradicts His written or incarnate word. Rhema never contradicts logos.

Indeed.  Amazing how we can sometimes see contradictions where none exists, though.  We need the right understanding.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is completely not true. 

If theGreek word entos is translated "in your midst" instead of "within you" no conflicts exist. There is no conflict between the KoG being in believers but not in the Pharisees, there is no conflict between the scripture and my posts and none of the things you've been dissenting over exist. The problem, the conflict, the contradiction occurs when interpreting entos to say "within you" when in fact the K0oG is NOT within the Pharisees. 

 

I've tried patiently not to address this fallacy of proof-texting that has occurred throughout this thread. This op asks what is the meaning of Luke 17:20-21. The op does not ask for a moratorium on the nature of the kingdom of God. Most here have done the latter, not the former. From the very beginning of this conversation I noted the KoG is much larger than that which lives/dwells within us, the KoG does not dwell within the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking, there are nearly 100 mentions of the KoG/H in the NT, and verse 21 should not be proof-texted. Might as well have been posting to rocks. 

John 3:3-6
"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'  Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"  Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

No matter where or when the KoG is or isn't, it cannot be seen unless the person is born again, born (anew) from above (Gk.: "gennēthē anōthen"). The Pharisees of Luke 17:20-21 were not born from above. They couldn't see the KoG. Verse Luke 17:21's entos cannot mean "within you". It cannot mean "within you Pharisees," and it cannot mean "Within all the people gathered together in this moment." 

The kingdom of God had come upon Israel,

Matthew 12:25-28
"And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, 'Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.  If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?  If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.  But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Those words were also spoke directly to Pharisees. The kingdom had come, and it had come upon them. It was NOT within the Pharisees. 

Matthew 21:28-31, $#-44
"But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'  And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.  The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir'; but he did not go.  Which of the two did the will of his father?' They said, 'The first.' Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you............... Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.  And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.'"

Here again Jesus is speak to the religious leaders, the chief priests and elders of the people. He says the KoG is not only something that had already come upon them, something that could be seen only if born from above, but it is also something something they would enter but something that would be taken away from them (future tense). Not only is the kingdom NOT within the Luke 17 Pharisees but that which was in their midst was going to be taken from them. 

Mark 1:14-15
"Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,  and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." 

The time was fulfilled (what time?) and the KoG was at hand, had drawn near. The drawing nearness of the KoG necessitated repentance. The Pharisees had not been baptized and according to Luke 7, "they rejected God's purpose for themselves". Not only is the kingdom NOT within the Luke 17 Pharisees but that which was in their midst was going to be taken from them but they openly rejected God's purpose.

Mark 4:10-12 ESV
"And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.  And he said to them, 'To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.'”

The mystery or secret of the KoG had been given to the disciples, not the Pharisees. Not only is the kingdom NOT within the Luke 17 Pharisees but that which was in their midst was going to be taken from them but they openly rejected God's purpose and they do not understand its mystery or secret. According to John 12 God had blinded them and even though many even among the rulers were believing in Jesus they would not confess it because the Pharisees were threatening to excommunicated anyone who did so (Jn. 12:42). Just days earlier Jesus had told them the kingdom was in their midst and on that day in John's gospel the entire city of Jerusalem had gone out to greet the Messiah. Four days later he was dead. Seven days later he'd arisen. 

Luke 17:21's entos does not and cannot mean "within you the Pharisees." 

After having rebuked Peter for Peter's resistance to Jesus' pending death Jesus said, 

Mark 8:34-9:1 
"And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, 'If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me.  For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.  For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?  For what will a man give in exchange for his soul?  For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. And Jesus was saying to them, 'Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.'" 

the Kingdom of God had come upon them, they would enter it, it would be taken away from some, and those to whom Jesus was speaking in Mark 8 would see after it came with power. They could not see it unless the were born from above. 

 

 

And I have only touched on what the New Testament tells us about the kingdom of God. There are scores of other verses that could be brought to bear on Luke 17:21. When they are al considered in all that they have to say on the matter of the kingdom of God and the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking it becomes impossible and incomprehensible to translate that entos as "within you Pharisees." It is also impossible to translate it as "within you all who are within earshot of the words I am not speaking." The KoG was in their midst but it was not inside them and it most definitely was not in them the way it would be following Calvary and Pentecost.  

Understanding how and why the KoG was not within the Pharisees can, does, and should help us understand our own experience of the kingdom because we do not want to be like them in any way. 

2 Thessalonians 1:3-5
"We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;  therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.  This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering."

Galatians 5:19-21
"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,  idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,  envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." 

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,  nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 

1 Corinthians 4:20
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power."

1 Corinthians 15:50
"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

John 18:36
"Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

 

I have only scratched the surface. There are 165 verses in the NT that speak of the kingdom one way or another. Luke 17:21 should not be proof-texted. The KoG was something that had come upon the Pharisees; it was in their midst, they would enter it but it would be taken from them and unless they were born anew from above they would never see it. Believers in the resurrected Christ would be considered worthy of the kingdom because of their perseverance, faith and love for one another. Those whose deeds were of the flesh would never see it. The kingdom is one of power and while it is not of this world it had come upon  planet earth in the first century and stood right in front of the Luke 17 Pharisees. It was in their midst, but not within them. 

That is the answer to the question this op asks when the verse is not proof-texted and whole scripture is brought to bear on it. 
 

 

The Spirit never contradicts the written word. 

 

 

Most of your opposition to what I posted is based on a deliberate straw man, and one that I have already addressed.

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No matter where or when the KoG is or isn't, it cannot be seen unless the person is born again, born (anew) from above (Gk.: "gennēthē anōthen"). The Pharisees of Luke 17:20-21 were not born from above. They couldn't see the KoG. Verse Luke 17:21's entos cannot mean "within you". It cannot mean "within you Pharisees," and it cannot mean "Within all the people gathered together in this moment."

You know very well, because I explained it clearly, that I did not claim that "within you" meant "...within you Pharisees", nor does it mean "...within all the people gathered together in this moment.".  What it means, as I've explained twice before, is "within people", in other words the "you" is a general "you".

Why don't you address what I post, instead of these straw men.  It was this kind of thing that led me to put you on ignore before.  It is again imminent.

[JohnR7]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:39 AM, Whyme said:

Is this translation accurate i wonder? And what does it mean? 

This word: "entos" in Greek is only used twice. Clearly this means inside of us. 

entos

"Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean".