JOSEPHUS

[Guest kingdombrat]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

The tone of what Josephus wrote there came across to me as being disrespectful and maybe mocking.

I couldn't agree with You more!

[Jaydub]

On 5/12/2021 at 2:10 PM, kingdombrat said:

 

reminds me of Isaiah 53.  I smiled when I read it

Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors

He had no beauty, nothing to attract us to him, yet we are all drawn to him, because of his inward beauty

[Your closest friendnt]

21 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

reminds me of Isaiah 53.  I smiled when I read it

Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors

He had no beauty, nothing to attract us to him, yet we are all drawn to him, because of his inward beauty

 

Am I missing something?

Jaydub what is this that reminds you of Isaiah 53 if I may asked.

[Heleadethme]

I don't know much about the various historical writings of anybody....but I wouldn't count anything outside the bible as necessarily being reliable.  God is not a man that He should lie.  People can have all sorts of wrong motives for writing what they write....especially in times/places where one's king/caesar/master had people killed without any hesitation at all for not pleasing them in some way.  And as we know conquering nations sometimes try to rewrite history in their favour.

Scripture says by the word of two or three witnesses to let everything be established, so we need to have a minimum of at least one credible further witness before considering something in a serious light and two more would be even better.

[Justin Adams]

18 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

I don't know much about the various historical writings of anybody

I tend to agree. In my dotage I found time to actually study what some people were reported to have said. Since nearly all church doctrine comes from external ideas, I decided to investigate. That's why my 'Futurism' OP. It seems that second and third-hand understanding is just not enough. One has to go to the source, even if one has latched on to something 'palatable' and tasty, you might have to ditch it.

I believe it takes courage and honesty to overthrow some of the faulty ideas we all seem to have taken onboard - often unconsciously. Such is the flavor of the demonic.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Alive]

Yup---There is a dynamic that some refer to as high towers, when an individual becomes inordinately invested in a doctrine or belief to the point of it becoming a part of how they identify themselves. This is a kind of idol and can and often does prevent having an open ear. I counsel that all of us examine ourselves in this regard. This can be profitable...then ones so affected can begin anew to study and search and investigate as the topic demands.

Regarding eschatology in general--there is history regarding what the 'church' has commonly believed over time and how that has changed. The Darby/Schofield thing is real and should at least be looked at. My study shows that as a easily verified  turn.

It is also true that the Lahaye stuff, etc. is speculation proven wrong over the years.

So--what do we do with these things?

Well--doesn't it seem obvious that we should question what we believe and how we came to believe those things---at the least, doesn't it seem prudent that we do?

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

I tend to agree. In my dotage I found time to actually study what some people were reported to have said. Since nearly all church doctrine comes from external ideas, I decided to investigate. That's why my 'Futurism' OP. It seems that second and third-hand understanding is just not enough. One has to go to the source, even if one has latched on to something 'palatable' and tasty, you might have to ditch it.

I believe it takes courage and honesty to overthrow some of the faulty ideas we all seem to have taken onboard - often unconsciously. Such is the flavor of the demonic.

Yes...and as you said that goes for all of us of course.    I'm just acknowledging that I can't comment from that perspective since I don't know enough about extra-biblical and historical writings to be able to.  So I can only try to contribute in more general ways according to scripture, and biblical principles....having two or three witnesses is one principle that our wise God gave us.  We always need to be careful about taking something at face value without also confirming it with other sources as witnesses.

That paragraph Josephus wrote about Jesus was startling.....I discerned a wrong spirit.  If what he wrote there isn't true, or if there is anything we know that he wrote isn't true, it just goes to show even more how we can't just accept everything he wrote without critically examining all of it....the devil uses people (without them being aware) to lead astray of the truth, so we need to be careful especially if someone is demonstrating a wrong spirit.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

51 minutes ago, Alive said:

Yup---There is a dynamic that some refer to as high towers, when an individual becomes inordinately invested in a doctrine or belief to the point of it becoming a part of how they identify themselves. This is a kind of idol and can and often does prevent having an open ear. I counsel that all of us examine ourselves in this regard. This can be profitable...then ones so affected can begin anew to study and search and investigate as the topic demands.

Regarding eschatology in general--there is history regarding what the 'church' has commonly believed over time and how that has changed. The Darby/Schofield thing is real and should at least be looked at. My study shows that as a easily verified  turn.

It is also true that the Lahaye stuff, etc. is speculation proven wrong over the years.

So--what do we do with these things?

Well--doesn't it seem obvious that we should question what we believe and how we came to believe those things---at the least, doesn't it seem prudent that we do?

I agree....it can be very useful to lay a thing down, on the altar, and ask God to sift it and try it, and we try to re-examine it with fresh eyes.  I've done it before, and the Lord was faithful to teach and correct and tweek me..... and am doing it now with these end-time things.

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Yup---There is a dynamic that some refer to as high towers, when an individual becomes inordinately invested in a doctrine or belief to the point of it becoming a part of how they identify themselves. This is a kind of idol and can and often does prevent having an open ear. I counsel that all of us examine ourselves in this regard. This can be profitable...then ones so affected can begin anew to study and search and investigate as the topic demands.

Regarding eschatology in general--there is history regarding what the 'church' has commonly believed over time and how that has changed. The Darby/Schofield thing is real and should at least be looked at. My study shows that as a easily verified  turn.

It is also true that the Lahaye stuff, etc. is speculation proven wrong over the years.

So--what do we do with these things?

Well--doesn't it seem obvious that we should question what we believe and how we came to believe those things---at the least, doesn't it seem prudent that we do?

A godly and scriptural exhortation to examine ourselves. It's all too easy to seek self-validation which is how we lay the foundation of that high tower. We raise that edifice by traveling the path of least resistance, paying heed to those things which reinforce self-validation brick by brick. 

The Lord is merciful toward us, remembering that our frame is dust. No one is beyond raising a high tower! He is faithful to demolish every high tower and vain imagining in His beloved, but this can be prove to be a painful and even humiliating experience on our part. High towers... idols... or perhaps that beam in our eye, all of which serve to blind us to our brothers, sisters, and the calling of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Words cannot express my thanksgiving toward the Lord who saves me from myself. I wrote elsewhere that I was broken by the Lord and this is best understood in the context of these high towers, idols, and forest growth blinding my eyes. The Lord demolished the camp I had painstakingly built and when His work was complete, Christ lifted me up and opened my eyes so I might see. I walked through the wreckage and cleaned up the rubble, raising a monumental pile of stubble for the fire. The Lord burned it until there nothing left but ashes. 

That's what we ought to do with the high towers, idols, and forest growth in our eyes. Sacrifice it all and make an offering to the Lord, placing it at His feet. As a reminder that I'm not incapable of raising a camp of pride once again --- I've caught myself in the act a number of times! --- the Lord is swift to humble me, reminding me of the trial I endured for 20 years. It was every bit a fiery trial!

Yes, the Lord was faithful to consume my camp with fire.   

[Marathoner]

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I tend to agree. In my dotage I found time to actually study what some people were reported to have said. Since nearly all church doctrine comes from external ideas, I decided to investigate. That's why my 'Futurism' OP. It seems that second and third-hand understanding is just not enough. One has to go to the source, even if one has latched on to something 'palatable' and tasty, you might have to ditch it.

I believe it takes courage and honesty to overthrow some of the faulty ideas we all seem to have taken onboard - often unconsciously. Such is the flavor of the demonic.

That's His lovingkindness towards us. I approach my dotage though if I were to measure that by the aches, pains, and scars I bear in this body, I'd say that my dotage commenced some time ago. It doesn't matter that I wasn't exposed to indoctrination to the degree that many of the brethren have been. I had issues aplenty... magazine subscriptions, even. 

Stubble for the flames.