The size of New Jerusalem

[Spiros]

Hello Retrobyter,

 

I never claimed that this cube will ever be built. It is not physical, it is geometrical. Besides as I pointed out it gives us a tool to compute other geographical cubes like the Athens cube, the New York cube, the Los Angeles cube, the Palestine cube etc. If the cube is considered to have the corners on the globe then it crosses the Asthenosphere. The depth for the New Jerusalem cube is 142 km. Wiki:

 

Quote

 

The asthenosphere is the mechanically weak^[1] and ductile region of the upper mantle of Earth. It lies below the lithosphere, between approximately 80 and 200 km below the surface, and extends as deep as 700 km. However, the lower boundary of the asthenosphere is not well defined.

The asthenosphere is almost solid, but a slight amount of melting (less than 0.1% of the rock) contributes to its mechanical weakness. More extensive decompression melting of the asthenosphere takes place where it wells upwards, and this is the most important source of magma on Earth. It is the source of mid-ocean ridge basalt (MORB) and of some magmas that erupted above subduction zones or in regions of continental rifting.

 

 

Best regards

Spiros

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/13/2021 at 8:32 PM, Spiros said:

I'd like to present my theory regarding the size of New Jerusalem. I previously posted this in a wrong section(Worthy Welcome) so I am creating a new thread here. Since it is against the  forum rules to upload photos from ones website, I will be uploading some diagrams to an image hosting site so that I can show them here.

 

12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness

12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is God telling us about New Jerusalem being as big and complete as it needs to be. Its that simple. 

Just like the 144,00 Jews are really ALL Israel who repent, or 3-5 million Jews (Zechariah 13:8-9 says 1/3 repent.......not 144,000) In other places God says He has saved Himself 7000 men. 

7 = Divine Completion and 10 = Completion.

7 x 10 x 10 x 10 this also means ALL Israel who repented.

You see, both 7000 and 144,000 can not be true unless they are ENCODED STAND INS for the real number. 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness

12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is God telling us about New Jerusalem being as big and complete as it needs to be. Its that simple. 

Just like the 144,00 Jews are really ALL Israel who repent, or 3-5 million Jews (Zechariah 13:8-9 says 1/3 repent.......not 144,000) In other places God says He has saved Himself 7000 men. 

7 = Divine Completion and 10 = Completion.

7 x 10 x 10 x 10 this also means ALL Israel who repented.

You see, both 7000 and 144,000 can not be true unless they are ENCODED STAND INS for the real number. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

Well, that's complete nonsense. You've swallowed the Qabaalaah pill! 

The dictionary gives us,

Kab·ba·lah| kəˈbälə, ˈkabələ | (also Kabbala, Cabala, Cabbala, or Qabalah) noun the ancient Jewish tradition of mystical interpretation of the Bible, first transmitted orally and using esoteric methods (including ciphers). It reached the height of its influence in the later Middle Ages and remains significant in Hasidism. ORIGIN from medieval Latin cabala, cabbala, from Rabbinical Hebrew qabbālāh ‘tradition’, from qibbēl ‘receive, accept’.

This is a POOR use of the Scriptures! The numbers don't mean all that you say they do; in fact, they are NEVER given such precedence, as you are doing or as Qabaalaah teaches!

When God says "1,000 years," He means ONE THOUSAND YEARS! When God says there were 144,000 VIRGINS given His mark from the twelve Tribes of Israel, then there were 144,000 VIRGINS! PERIOD!

YHWH God had this conversation with Eliyahuw ("Elijah"):

1 Kings 19:9-18 (KJV)

9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him,

"What doest thou here, Elijah?"

10 And he said,

"I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

11 And he said,

"Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD."

And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind:

and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire:

and after the fire a still small voice. 13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said,

"What doest thou here, Elijah?"

14 And he said,

"I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

15 And the LORD said unto him,

"Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria: 16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room. 17 And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay. 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him."

First, this is the NORTHERN tribes of Israel, those who didn't side with Yhudah ("Judah") when Shlomoh's son, R'chaV`aam (Solomon's son, Rehoboam) threatened to make their tax burdens even heavier than Shlomoh's. These "ten tribes" became referred to as "Israel," the "Northern Kingdom." Right off the bat, they were given two idols by their new king YaaraaV`aam ("Jeroboam") - golden calves - one in Bethel (the southern end) and one in Dan (the northern end)! (He couldn't let them keep worshipping YHWH God, or they would end up back in Jerusalem and kill him!)

Second, this is a time period where idolatry was the norm. King yaaraaV`am had refused to let the people go back to YHWH God in Jerusalem; so, Eliyahuw thought He was the last prophet of YHWH in the Northern Kingdom of Israel. God was telling him that he was wrong; God had 7,000 northern men who had NOT bent the knee to Ba`al, the idol and false god of the Zidonians.

Paul used this information in Romans 11:4:

Romans 11:1-6 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

One can believe EVERYTHING that God says PRECISELY as He said it! Don't think you can't! And, one should ESPECIALLY not teach others to doubt!

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When God says "1,000 years," He means ONE THOUSAND YEARS! When God says there were 144,000 VIRGINS given His mark from the twelve Tribes of Israel, then there were 144,000 VIRGINS! PERIOD!

And when Jesus (God) says 1o Virgin Bride he means ALL Christendom !! Right? And when God gives us the 10 Commandments its a stand in for ALL Gods laws. When God tells us the Church of Smyrna would suffer tribulation  10 days, it didn't mean for the whole Church Age hey? Of course it did. 

The 7 Churches represent ALL Churches during the Church Age. The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits means God SEES ALL and is Everywhere. The 7 Heads and 10 Horns represent Gods COMPLETE JUDGMENT against Israel, the 7 Heads finish it off and the 10 Kings means ALL Europe revived, but thy are not 1o kings/nations, they are 26 right now and more may be incoming. 

I just leave you in the dust on Prophetic Understanding my friend, I have actually been called unto End Time Eschatology for 37 plus years, its not a sideline hobby fir me, it my calling, I see way too many people who love to dabble in prophecy, but its not really their calling. 

So, the 10 Virgins represent ALL Christendom AND they are not virgins are they? Except we are all virgins via Jesus' blood, and so will the 3-5 million Jews who repent be virgins in Christ Jesus under his blood. We see THE WOMAN is a stand in for Israel, and so is the number 144,000. You not getting it is on you. 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Spiros said:

Hello Retrobyter,

I never claimed that this cube will ever be built. It is not physical, it is geometrical. Besides as I pointed out it gives us a tool to compute other geographical cubes like the Athens cube, the New York cube, the Los Angeles cube, the Palestine cube etc. If the cube is considered to have the corners on the globe then it crosses the Asthenosphere. The depth for the New Jerusalem cube is 142 km. Wiki:

Best regards

Spiros

Shalom, Spiros.

The city is currently being built in space; that's what "epouranios" means, "of, from, or belonging to above-the-sky."

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion (Greek: Sioon orei = Hebrew: Har Tsi'own = "Mount Zion"), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: Ierousaleem epouranioo = "Jerusalem from-above-[the]-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os). From epi and ouranos; above the sky
-- celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

1909 epi (ep-ee'). A primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. Over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.
-- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

3772 ouranos (oo'-ran-os). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

This "extension" is theologically ridiculous since God is omnipresent! He doesn't have or NEED an "abode!" This comes from a poor understanding of the "third heaven" found in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. One should take Peter's understanding of "third heavens" found in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Yeshua` said that's what He would be doing while away:

John 14:1-2 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." 

And, YHWH God's "house" is the "tent" that He will bring down to the New Earth, much as Avraham's tent:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = a Bedouin "tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Avraham's tent is mentioned in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais, the locative, feminine, plural of skeenee = "in [Bedouin] tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

It was at the time of the promise that God made to Avraham (still as Avram) that he began to call YHWH God "Adonaay," which means "my foundation-Layer!"

134 'eden (not to be confused with `eeden) (eh-den). From the same as 'aadown (in the sense of strength); a basis (of a building, a column, etc.)
-- foundation, socket.

113 'aadown (aw-done') or (shortened) aadon {aw-done'}; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. Controller (human or divine)
-- lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

This leads to the word that is first used in the following passage:

Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

"Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

2 And Abram said,

"Lord (Hebrew: 'Adonaay) GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir!"

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir!"

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them":

and he said unto him,

"So shall thy seed be!"

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

Then, in the rest of the chapter, God cuts the unconditional covenant with Avram in verses 8-21.

136 'Adonaay (aw-do-noy'). An emphatic form of 'aadown; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only)
-- (my) Lord.

Can you see how all this dovetails together?!

It IS a physical city that is currently being built "off-world!" Look at all the clues in Revelation 21 and 22!

Revelation 21:10-22:5 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit (on the wind) to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (out of the sky) from God, 11 Having the glory (brightness) of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations (Greek: themelioi, same as in Hebrews 11:10), and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed (tube) to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare (covers a square footprint, with four right angles), and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Time and time again, REAL, TANGIBLE things are mentioned in this passage of Scripture! This is a LITERAL, "CONCRETE" city!

[Retrobyter]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

And when Jesus (God) says 1o Virgin Bride he means ALL Christendom!! Right?

Shalom, Revelation Man.

First, one must distinguish between the real historical accounts, including future history, from the PARABLES! 

Second, this parable is not about "10 virgin brides"; it's about 10 bridesmaids! The bridegroom (we just say, groom, today) goes into the house where His bride already is! These are ATTENDANTS who may come in with Him to the party inside, once He has arrived! This is still a part of the Olivet Discourse, and He is still talking to His disciples who ARE JEWS! THEY understood the analogy, even if we don't understand it very well today! Besides, His point was "BE READY," not just "partly ready" or "mostly ready!" If one has to go back to get something or if one has to go to the store first, then he or she is NOT READY YET!

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

And when God gives us the 10 Commandments its a stand in for ALL Gods laws.

No! They are NOT "stand-in's"! They are the FIRST TEN of 613 commandments of God to the children of Israel! They are the ones that are FOUNDATIONAL to all the others! They are the top TEN of a HIERARCHY of commandments! One must read the WHOLE TORAH (the Pentateuch) to see all the commandments that were important to God! Yeshua` further summarized all the 613 commandments into the two:

Matthew 22:34-40 (KJV)

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 

36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?"

37 Jesus said unto him,

" 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Think about it! If one "loves the LORD his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind," then he or she is not going to "take the name of the LORD in vain," is he or she? One is going to honor the Shabbat as a day of rest, because it honors HIS day of rest! And, so on!

If one "loves his neighbor as himself," then he or she is not going to "murder that neighbor," is he or she? He or she is not going to "covet his or her neighbor's things," is he or she? And, so on!

But, in NO WAY are the 613 commandments diminished! Yeshua` said,

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil! 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

When God tells us the Church of Smyrna would suffer tribulation  10 days, it didn't mean for the whole Church Age hey? Of course it did. 

No, it didn't! He was talking to a SPECIFIC congregation! That "body" located in the town of Smyrna, in Asia Minor (what is called "Turkey" today)! It's not "symbolic" or "representative" of ANYTHING! It was one of the towns on the circuit from Patmos to these seven churches, called out gatherings of the Lord that were dear to the apostle John! (An "apostle" is a "sent one" - a "MISSIONARY" to other locations!) John was in exile while writing the book of the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah. He was instructed IN THIS LETTER to address these individual congregations!

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The 7 Churches represent ALL Churches during the Church Age.

No, they don't. That's a 20th Century INVENTION - a FABLE - a FICTION - that has NO merit!

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits means God SEES ALL and is Everywhere. The 7 Heads and 10 Horns represent Gods COMPLETE JUDGMENT against Israel, the 7 Heads finish it off and the 10 Kings means ALL Europe revived, but thy are not 1o kings/nations, they are 26 right now and more may be incoming. 

You don't know what you're talking about. The Scriptures do NOT say what they represent, or when they do, most aren't listening because they're already CONVINCED of something else they already believe!

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I just leave you in the dust on Prophetic Understanding my friend, I have actually been called unto End Time Eschatology for 37 plus years, its not a sideline hobby for me, it my calling, I see way too many people who love to dabble in prophecy, but its not really their calling. 

HAH! That's why you get so much WRONG! You're convinced of your "timeline" and can't see the bigger picture! OUR LORD IS RETURNING AS KING! First, as a grain of mustard seed, His kingdom will start small; He, like His ancestor David, will first be the King of the Jews, accepted by the elders of the Tribe of Yhudah (as He SHOULD have been in His First Advent); then, He will become the King of Israel as He gathers the children of Israel from all the countries where they had been dispersed. Then, as He annexes other kingdoms, He becomes the "King of kings," a title meaning "World Emperor!" After a thousand years of subduing His enemies, He shall be the King over all the earth, and finally defeat Death forever at the Great White Throne Judgment. Then, He will submit to the rulership of His Father, that God may be ALL IN ALL! 

Thus, from the Resurrection of the Fifth Seal to the sun, moon, and stars event of the Sixth Seal, to the Claim of the Kingdom in the Seventh Trumpet, to the War of Acquisition when the Messiah takes the Land completely, driving out the Gentiles. These are ALL stages in His Second Coming! They involve the second half of the 70th Seven of Daniel 9, but the Tribulation was long since over with the sun, moon, and stars event of the Sixth Seal!

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

So, the 10 Virgins represent ALL Christendom AND they are not virgins are they?

If you understand the term "virgin," then, no, they're NOT! That's NOT what the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 was about! To quote the old movie, Fern Gully, "wrong channel, Batty!"

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Except we are all virgins via Jesus' blood, and so will the 3-5 million Jews who repent be virgins in Christ Jesus under his blood. We see THE WOMAN is a stand in for Israel, and so is the number 144,000. You not getting it is on you. 

No. The 144,000 virgins are indeed LITERAL virgins! They are the SINGERS that accompany the King! They are called upon for their occupation, and must not have any ties that would tie them down to someone else!

Just learn to accept the Scriptures at face value, and quit trying to READ your scenarios INTO the Scriptures (eisegesis)!

[Retrobyter]

On 12/20/2021 at 5:27 PM, Marilyn C said:

So Spiros,

Why are we to be all (millions) in a box?

Why when we have the whole earth to use?

And why do we need a wall to protect us? 

And why are others allowed on the new earth but those in the city are stuck there? 

All fanciful.

Shalom, Marilyn C.

We are NOT all restricted to a box (even though I believe it more to be a giant pyramid). This is our capital city, our Father's HOUSE (or tent)! The New Earth is our Father's "back yard!" The earth was MADE to be our home. Our bodies, even the resurrected ones, will consist of flesh and bones, just as our Lord was resurrected.

We SHALL have the whole earth to use, and other nations shall still exist!

We don't need the walls to protect us; the walls protect the rest of the earth from the pockets of atmosphere within the New Jerusalem. I believe that the 12 foundations are 12 foundational LEVELS to the city, each level having more of the golden city built upon that foundational level! Each level is supported by the walls of the city, and the whole structure is the most stable of all shapes, the triangle. It's only the BASE that is said to "lie foursquare!" It means that the city covers a square area! BUT, it does NOT mean that the sides of the city must also be squares! Ever notice how there's no mention of a roof or of it being open to space? I believe that's because the four walls MEET at a single point! The CAPSTONE or the "HEAD STONE OF THE CORNER!" Thus, each section of the city has a foundation below it, a foundation above it, and the four walls surrounding it, keeping in the atmosphere for that level of the city! Thus, each level is "sea level" for that section of the city! Only the first level will always stand open to the atmosphere outside of the city, since the gates always stand open, commemorating the Resurrection of our Lord! For a positioning system, each level of the city is not only a different gem stone, it is identified by the name of one of the twelve apostles! Each of the twelve sections of the city with a gate centered in the middle of that section, is identified by the gate with the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel engraved upon it! So, we'll have a lateral identification - the twelve tribes, and we'll have a vertical identification - the twelve apostles.

We're NOT stuck in the city! We are going to be going in and out at our Master's whim and when we're "off duty." We shall still be reigning over the various parts of the earth under His Kingship. He is the "King of kings"; we are the "kings" and "queens!" Some of us will be leaders of a city; some over multiple cities. (Some of us will be lucky to be janitors!)

Some enjoy the "nightlife" and activities of a big city (but of course, there'll be no night there). Others enjoy the peaceful countryside and a pleasant picnic! BOTH will be available to all! Our eastern seaboard has grown in population until it's hard now to know where Boston ends and New York begins! Or where New York ends and where Washington D.C. begins! The city within the walls will be like that! Can you imagine what Sukkot is going to be like inside the New Jerusalem?! And EVERYONE will be there! After all, it's the Messiah's true birthday! He was only conceived at Christmas time! But the streets of the city are SO wide that they have a river and a park on either side of the river within the medians of the streets! There's PLENTY of space to put up a booth - a sukkah! Everyone will have large homes within the city (rooms or mansions, both are applicable); these will be for entertaining gatherings and parties, meeting with friends and loved ones, but they will also be MEMORIALS of all the various things that the Messiah did for you PERSONALLY throughout your lifetime!

Fanciful thinking? Perhaps. But, the Jewish way of life is to entertain strangers along with their families! Pop in for a Seder during Passover season! Everyone is welcome! Enjoy the feast with new people you haven't met, yet! Get to know other believers, both children of Israel and Gentiles grafted into the Olive Tree, and learn their stories! How did God intervene in their lives? Hear the original tales of the people we read about in the Bible! Hear it FIRST-HAND! Feel the depths of despair in their lives suddenly give way to the HOPE that God brought to them! What was life like for Rachav ("Rahab") in Jericho? What was it like to be brought into God's family? Look at the pride on her face to realize that she was chosen to be a part of the Messiah's lineage, in spite of her past!

I've rambled on long enough, but you can see that I've just scratched the surface!

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

First, one must distinguish between the real historical accounts, including future history, from the PARABLES! 

Second, this parable is not about "10 virgin brides"; it's about 10 bridesmaids!

The number 10 is used for completion, the virgins were Brides going to meet the Bridegroom. Bridegrooms could marry more than one woman in certain cases, and this bein a parable or metaphor about Jesus 10 had to be used because we will ALL marry Jesus. It is 10 because 10 means completion. Try as you might, that is a big ole fail. 

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No! They are NOT "stand-in's"! They are the FIRST TEN of 613 commandments of God to the children of Israel!

We were given 10 because 10 represents completion, in those 10 laws we know you can please God, Jesus even stated there wa one are two laws which in them you fulfilled all the laws by loving you neighbor as yourself, and God with all your heart. So, the essece of God is in those 10 Commandments, if you love your neighbor as yourself, and God with ALL YOUR HEART, you will never fail God, because your heart will seek to always be true to God in ALL THNGS. So, yes, those 10 represent ALL God's Moral Laws because in those 10 if you do them, you will keep all of the other Laws if you love God with all your heart (The Jews would have done this) and we(Church) by keeping those 10 via our hearts would never fail God if we sought to please Him at every turn because we loved Him with all of our hearts. So, Jesus tells you all te laws can be summed up by just 2 of those 10, thus the 10 likewise are a STAND IN for all the law.

So, you defeated your own argument. (Which I saw later after my argument above, via making my point.)

 

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, it didn't! He was talking to a SPECIFIC congregation!

Smyrna has been under Rome, then they threw in with Rome, then got conquered by the Islamic Hordes/Ottoman Empire, thus Christians have had continual tribulations, which 10 stands for. 

We all know the Letter was the the Specific 7 Churches and THAT SPECIFIC Church would have tribulation for the whole church age. Its awful funny God uses 10 over and over and you cant figure out its CODE for completion.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You don't know what you're talking about. The Scriptures do NOT say what they represent, or when they do, most aren't listening because they're already CONVINCED of something else they already believe!

 Couldn't make an argument hey? Sure the 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits don't mean what I stated it means all because you don't understand it. You are definitely not called unto Eschatology brother, but your pride will not let you ever be wrong it seems. Its kind of amusing tbh, but I see this everywhere. men not called unto Prophecy/Eschatology who really want teach, but are not equipped to teach.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, they don't. That's a 20th Century INVENTION - a FABLE - a FICTION - that has NO merit!

This is not even debatable.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Thus, from the Resurrection of the Fifth Seal to the sun, moon, and stars event of the Sixth Seal, to the Claim of the Kingdom in the Seventh Trumpet, to the War of Acquisition when the Messiah takes the Land completely, driving out the Gentiles. These are ALL stages in His Second Coming! They involve the second half of the 70th Seven of Daniel 9, but the Tribulation was long since over with the sun, moon, and stars event of the Sixth Seal!

When you get to Heaven since there is no bragging, just bring me a glass of lemonade, after you understand everything I stated was true, because I rely on the holy spirit. 

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

If you understand the term "virgin," then, no, they're NOT! That's NOT what the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 was about! To quote the old movie, Fern Gully, "wrong channel, Batty!"

I have already debunked your position above brother.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No. The 144,000 virgins are indeed LITERAL virgins! They are the SINGERS that accompany the King! They are called upon for their occupation, and must not have any ties that would tie them down to someone else!

Just learn to accept the Scriptures at face value, and quit trying to READ your scenarios INTO the Scriptures (eisegesis)!

WRONG.......You may never get it, but that doesn't really mean much in God's eyes, His codes and understandings are not contingent on us understanding His truths. 

[Retrobyter]

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The number 10 is used for completion, the virgins were Brides going to meet the Bridegroom. Bridegrooms could marry more than one woman in certain cases, and this bein a parable or metaphor about Jesus 10 had to be used because we will ALL marry Jesus. It is 10 because 10 means completion. Try as you might, that is a big ole fail. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

That's called "polygamy!" While it may have been a loose custom in the Old Testament, it was certainly NOT condoned by Yeshua` HIMSELF!

Matthew 19:3-9 (KJV)

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting (testing) him, and saying unto him,

"Is it lawful for a man to put away (divorce) his wife for every cause?"

4 And he answered and said unto them,

"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, 'For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain (two) shall be one flesh?' 6 Wherefore they are no more twain (two), but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

7 They say unto him,

"Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?"

8 He saith unto them,

"Moses because of the hardness (fierceness) of your hearts suffered (allowed) you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so! 9 And I say unto you, 'Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery': and 'whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery!'"

Why would He say otherwise, even in a parable?!

The parable reads this way:

Matthew 25:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made,

"'Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!'

7 "Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise,

"'Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out!'

9 "But the wise answered, saying, 

"'Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.'

10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying,

"'Lord, Lord, open to us!'

12 "But he answered and said,

"'Verily I say unto you, I know you not!' [Don't you think He would know the voices of His own "brides?"]

13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh!"

The Greek word translated as "virgins" is parthenois, the dative, feminine, plural form of ...

3933 parthenos (par-then'-os). Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication, an unmarried daughter
-- virgin.

No, at best, they were bridesmaids - attendants; they were there to meet the groom and escort Him into the house, not to marry the man! If they were His intended brides, wouldn't he have waited for them to return?

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

We were given 10 because 10 represents completion, in those 10 laws we know you can please God, Jesus even stated there was one are two laws which in them you fulfilled all the laws by loving you neighbor as yourself, and God with all your heart. So, the essece of God is in those 10 Commandments, if you love your neighbor as yourself, and God with ALL YOUR HEART, you will never fail God, because your heart will seek to always be true to God in ALL THINGS. So, yes, those 10 represent ALL God's Moral Laws because in those 10 if you do them, you will keep all of the other Laws if you love God with all your heart (The Jews would have done this) and we(Church) by keeping those 10 via our hearts would never fail God if we sought to please Him at every turn because we loved Him with all of our hearts. So, Jesus tells you all the laws can be summed up by just 2 of those 10, thus the 10 likewise are a STAND IN for all the law.

So, you defeated your own argument. (Which I saw later after my argument above, via making my point.)

No, not really. See, you're forgetting other things that Ya`aqoV ("James") said:

James 2:8-13 (KJV)

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,"

ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said,

"Do not commit adultery,"

said also,

"Do not kill."

Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

The author of Hebrews also tells us,

Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV)

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted (tested) like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Each of the 613 commandments that God made to the children of Israel had their own consequences if they failed to obey those commandments! That two could sum up all the rest does NOT negate those consequences should they fail to keep the lesser commandments! While the Temple stood and animal sacrifices could still be made, all 613 commandments were to be kept carefully and precisely!

Now, some of those commandments CAN'T be kept because the Temple doesn't currently exist, but does that mean that God has withdrawn those commandments? NO!

Paul gave us this hope!

Romans 5:19-26 (KJV)

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in HIS blood, to declare HIS righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time HIS righteousness: that HE might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

He also wrote similarly to the Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God who Himself has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (Himself exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (In the Messiah).

"The reconciliation" in 2 Corinthians 15:19 are the Greek words "tees katallagees," the genitive form of ...

2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor
-- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

The verb form is ...

2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference
-- reconcile.

And, this "mutual exchange" is found in verse 21:

He became sin for us (even though He knew no sin of His own)
that
we might become God's righteousness in Him (even though we knew no righteousness)!

THAT'S the exchange! It's not a "fair" exchange; we get the lollipop and He got the stick, BUT it was a "JUST" exchange! It was within God's rights to make this exchange on our behalf!

This is why it is better to say, "God's justification" of an individual, rather than the "salvation" of a person. One can debate "Once Saved Always Saved," but how can someone argue against "Once Justified by GOD, ALWAYS Justified by God!" That is NOT the business of the redeemed individual! It relies on GOD ONLY!

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Smyrna has been under Rome, then they threw in with Rome, then got conquered by the Islamic Hordes/Ottoman Empire, thus Christians have had continual tribulations, which 10 stands for. 

We all know the Letter was to the Specific 7 Churches and THAT SPECIFIC Church would have tribulation for the whole church age.

Wrong. The called-out gathering at Smyrna was NOT going to "have tribulation for the whole church age!" I challenge you to find THIS PARTICULAR gathering at Smyrna!

Here's what Yochanan was told to say to them:

Revelation 2:8-11 (KJV)

8 "And unto the angel (messenger) of the church in Smyrna write;

"'These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 "'"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan (Hebrew for "the enemy"). 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil (Greek: ho diabolos = "the slanderer") shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."'"

The first thing you need to understand is that the King James Version is one of the few versions that still makes a distinction between the 2nd-person SINGULAR (thou, thee, thy, thine) and the 2nd-person PLURAL (ye, you, your, yours).

So, most of this sub-letter is written to the ONE MESSENGER of the called-out gathering in Smyrna. Many believe that is the ONE Pastor or Bishop of that gathering. Wherever you see the words "thy," "thou," and "thee," Yeshua` is speaking to the ONE individual. When you see the words "ye" and "you," THEN He is speaking to more than one person!

Here's the Greek of verses 9-11:

9 Οἶδά σου τὴν θλῖψιν καὶ τὴν πτωχείαν, ἀλλὰ πλούσιος εἶ, καὶ τὴν βλασφημίαν ἐκ τῶν λεγόντων Ἰουδαίους εἶναι ἑαυτούς, καὶ οὐκ εἰσίν ἀλλὰ συναγωγὴ τοῦ Σατανᾶ.
10 Μηδὲν φοβοῦ ἃ μέλλεις πάσχειν. ἰδοὺ μέλλει βάλλειν ὁ διάβολος ἐξ ὑμῶν εἰς φυλακὴν ἵνα πειρασθῆτε, καὶ ἕξετε θλῖψιν ἡμερῶν δέκα. γίνου πιστὸς ἄχρι θανάτου, καὶ δώσω σοι τὸν στέφανον τῆς ζωῆς.
11 Ὁ ἔχων οὖς ἀκουσάτω τί τὸ Πνεῦμα λέγει ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις. Ὁ νικῶν οὐ μὴ ἀδικηθῇ ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου τοῦ δευτέρου.

Transliterated, this is ...

9 Oida sou teen thlipsin kai teen ptoocheian, alla plousios ei, kai teen blasfeemian ek toon legontoon Ioudaious einai heautous, kai ouk eisin alla sunagoogee tou Satana.
10 Meeden fobou ha melleis paschein. Idou mellei ballein ho diabolos ex humoon eis fulakeen hina peirastheete, kai hexete thlipsin heemeroon deka. Ginou pistos achri thanatou, kai doosoo soi ton stefanon tees zooees.
11 Ho echoon ous akousatoo ti to Pneuma legei tais ekkleesiais. Ho nikoon ou mee adikeethee ek tou thanatou tou deuterou.

Translated word-for-word, this is ...

9 I-know of-thee/thy the tribulation/pressure and the destitution, but rich thou-art, and the blasphemy/belittling out of-the sayings/claims Jews to-be themselves, and not they-are but a-synagogue of-the Enemy.
10 No-one fear what thou-art-about to-suffer. Behold, is-about to-throw the slanderer [some]-out of-you into prison so-that ye-shall-be-tested, and you-shall-have tribulation/pressure days ten. Be-thou faithful unto death, and I-give to-thee the victor's-crown of-the life.
11 The-one having an-ear to-hear what the Spirit/Wind says to-the called-out-[gatherings]. The overcomer not-positively not-negatively shall-be-injured out of-the death the second.

He's talking to this ONE person, and talks about SOME of them in this congregation being thrown in prison and being pressured for 10 days, but this is NOT something given to the whole group of believers and especially not for the entire "church age!"

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Its awful funny God uses 10 over and over and you cant figure out its CODE for completion.

Well, the way I was taught it in the gemetria session of a Theology class was ...

1 = the number of God.
2 = the number of witness.
3 = the number of the Trinity.
4 = the number of the earth.
5 = the number of grace.
6 = the number of man (spiritual imperfection).
7 = the number of spiritual perfection.
8 = the number of new beginnings.
9 = the number of ordinal imperfection.
10 = the number of ordinal perfection.
11 = the number of governmental imperfection.
12 = the number of governmental perfection.
13 = the number of judgment fulfilled.
40 = the number of testing.
etc.

I've heard all the nonsense. I've even argued against Yeshua` ("Jesus") having seven fingers on each hand and seven toes on each foot! Why would someone feel the need for such an argument? With these kinds of people one cannot reason. They're adamantly stuck in their ridiculous beliefs, and no matter how one tries to reason with them, it falls on deaf ears. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 Couldn't make an argument hey? Sure the 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits don't mean what I stated it means all because you don't understand it.

 There's another explanation: Zechariah 3:9 says,

Zechariah 3:8-10 (KJV)

8 "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH (Hebrew: tsemach = "a sprout"). 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes (Hebrew: shiV`aah eenaayiym = "seven `ayins"): behold, I will engrave the graving thereof,"

saith the LORD of hosts,

"and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day,"

saith the LORD of hosts,

"shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree."

These are SEVEN LINES each beginning with an "`ayin," the Hebrew letter meaning "eye."

These could possibly be 7 of the 8 lines found in Psalm 119:121-128, for instance, although there are other such grammar psalms, as well.

The 7 Spirits are 7 WINDS! These could be the miracles that God performed, such as the blowing back of the Red Sea all night to make a dried sea bed for the children of Israel to cross and to keep the sea at a distance! Also, the wind from which the breath will come to resurrect the whole house of Israel!

(More later...)

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That's called "polygamy!" While it may have been a loose custom in the Old Testament, it was certainly NOT condoned by Yeshua` HIMSELF!

So the parable is about Jesus and the Church and that is polygamy? NOT. And by the way, they were still under Jewish law, now go reread the laws and see if men were allowed to marry more than one woman, I mean Abraham did, Jacob married Rachel and Leah, honestly, do you think these things through or just grasp at straws trying to maintain a position brother?

So, the fact is you are playing lose with the facts, the parable is about Jesus and you know it, and Jesus will marry the Church (The COMPLETE CHURCH) so the 10 Virgins are His Bride (US), the Church. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Is it lawful for a man to put away (divorce) his wife for every cause?"

Again, this is you tryin to be cute because I have destroyed you argument, to marry more than one doesn't require a divorce, but then again you know that, but then again, as I stated above, the Parable is about Jesus marrying his Church, thus 10 stands for the WHOLE COMPLETE Church.......AND YOU KNOW THIS.....Sad really that you ant even admit this fact brother.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, not really. See, you're forgetting other things that Ya`aqoV ("James") said:

You spend way to much time quoting scriptures, but not showing how it backs up your opinions, because it never does. Anyone can paste a scripture, I have seem David Koresh and the like do that for years, understanding that scripture and how it all ties together is what really matters. 

The NOT REALLY is telling, yes, you know its REALLY HOW I STATED IT. a\All the laws can be fulfilled by just those 2 thus those 10 are a STAND IN for all the laws. All this because you can't see the obvious. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

and you-shall-have tribulation/pressure days ten. Be-thou faithful unto death, and I-give to-thee the victor's-crown of-the life.

I study the Greek ad Hebrew in depth. Thus you do not even get that what you posted above proves MY POINT, it goes right in the eyes but never registers with you. You will have Tribulation  10 DAYS.........Be faithful unto DEATH and I will give you the CROWN of Life. 

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon (Rev. 3:21 THRONE to the Church who OVERCCOMES) the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment;(Rev. 3:5 White Robes/Raiment) and they had on their heads crowns of gold(Rev. 2:10).

So, Jesus is speaking about 10 days (Complete Church Age IMHO, and FACTUAL) and then ties it in with the Promises to the Churches that OVERCOME and then shows them IN HEAVEN in the same verse, and you do not understand its the Complete Church Age. God thinks bigger it seems than you can contemplate.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, the way I was taught it in the gemetria session of a Theology class was ...

Well, you were taught party right, but 7 is Divine Completion, the number 10 is Completion, the number 12 is Fullness etc. 

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I've heard all the nonsense. I've even argued against Yeshua` ("Jesus") having seven fingers on each hand and seven toes on each foot!

That on you if you argued with someone about 7 toes. Just because you found a kook and argued about an irrelevant point, that has ZERO bearing on God use of numbers, you think you can actually with an argument against me by raising red herrings, LOL, then you are sadly mistaken sir. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 There's another explanation: Zechariah 3:9 says,

Zechariah 3:8-10 (KJV)

You will see when we get to Heaven brother, you are stuck in the mud on these old ideas about God. Its evident you were not called to Eschatology so I guess I shouldn't even be debating eschatology with one who can't see it as I do. It is my own fault for thinkin you could understand this, of course a lot of people not called can be taught, but like the Pharisees, Jesus says some people are just too attracted to "Men's Tradition" i. e. old ideas.