Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Montana Marv]

58 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, again that's just simply and plainly incorrect. The reason it is just plain wrong is because Christianity has already decided and settled upon this matter and only Dispensationalism disagrees!!!!! Everyone in all of Christendom going all the way back to the New Testament era completely agrees 1) Israel is irrelevant to end times, 2) the temple is irrelevant to end times, 3) there will not be another temple of stone built because 4) the future temple of prophesy is the temple of John 2:19-22, and 1 Corinthians 3:16 and 6:19. There was another temple built. The prophecies were fulfilled.

The prophecies were literally fulfilled. 

It is because God kept His promise we can and do trust God as a God of promise. 

I don't have to make up stuff or impose wildly speculative interpretations on God's word to know this. Scripture plainly stated and read as written states the temple of God is the resurrected body of Christ. Only Dispensationalists argue something else about the temple. They are all outside the pale of orthodoxy and the entire history of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice on this matter and are so far outside that if what Dispensationalism is correct then Christianity - all two thousand years of it - is and has always been wrong. Christianity is wrong. Dispensationalism is right. Dispensationalism and Dispensationalism alone is now Christianity. 

That is wack. 

So, no, Marv, I don't need to limit my decision to the two options you dictate. That's not my personal opinion, that is the uniform decision of Christianity for the last 20 centuries and one that is based solely and firmly on plainly stated scripture read as written without any embellishment. 

Ezk 40-44 is the Third Temple.  Yes made out of stone blocks.  How else would someone coming out the the 70th Week from every nation be able to come to worship in Jerusalem on the Feast of Tabernacles on a yearly basis.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Zech 8:23 - This is what the Lord Almighty says; In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Ezk 40-44 - The glory of the Lord entered the Temple through the gate facing east.  This is where I will live among the Israelites forever.  The house of Israel will never again defile my holy name.  Millennial Reign   Physical Temple, House of Israel who in the past has defiled His holy name, now will never again defile His Holy Name.

On that day, his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and the Mt of Olives will split in two half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea.

None of this ever happened in or around 70 AD  But it will happen when Christ begins His 1000 reign.  Fact, Fact, Fact.  No embellishment here.  Read the Word.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/13/2021 at 1:17 PM, Justin Adams said:

It all mostly happened around 70 AD. Read Josephus' account along with Revelation. "these things must shortly come to pass". Same as Yeshua said in Matt 24. So they did escape to Pella and not a single believer was killed.

"shortly": Greek ἐν τάχει: "in/with speed": speedily, quickly.

That is the more accurate translation. The KJV and similar translations add a presumption about the timing; whereas the literal translation indicates that the nature of the coming is being described, not the time. The Parousia will take place quickly, whenever it takes place.

[DeighAnn]

16 minutes ago, Josheb said:

. One of the most recognizable examples of this inconsistency has to do with my elsewhere appealing to Acts 2 and Peter's sermon at Pentecost to show Joel 2 has been fulfilled. The common response from modern futurists is something like, "Yes, part of Joel 2 were fulfilled at Pentecost, but not all of Joel 2 was fulfilled." If that statement is true then that is a partial fulfillment of prophecy, a partial-fulfillment asserted by those claiming partial-fulfillments are not possible. It's enormously inconsistent. You guys can't have it both ways. 

Here is what I hear you saying

Jesus was born.  Emmanuel. The Word made flesh. Born right, right places, right times.

Prophecy fulfilled.

So, WHETHER or NOT He would have ever began His ministry, was baptized, was well pleasing, was tempted,  DOESN'T/Wouldn't ever  matter, because those other things happened and those things are what 'set' the matter as to 'fulfilled or not'.  

SO speaking for myself, I don't count 'partial' as complete.  When it happens AS IT IS WRITTEN, then it becomes 'past'.  Part of it doesn't make any of it past.  
Mistakes?  


But how many times does the same thing happen again and again and again in the Bible?  So when are things 'fulfilled'?  WELL, we know it CAN take place right in the middle of a verse....the book closed because 'the day of vengeance' wasn't still being yet future.  





God blesses, people get fat and happy, people leave God, God leaves people, people fail, Cry out to God, repent, God forgives and it starts all over again.  

Have we ever seen the armies of God on earth before?  Many times.  COULD any of them have been the FINAL?  NO because here we are. 


 No armies have encompassed Jerusalem, and Christ like lightning has not returned and His Brightness hasn't destroyed Satan.  The dead haven't risen.  Those left alive and remaining haven't been changed.  The spears have not been beaten back into plow shares.  The millennial temple isn't here. His foot has not yet touched down and the valley has not been forged.  The sheep and goats have not been separated.  The daily sacrifice and the oblation has never ceased. The tribes are not all living round the temple.  The nations are not coming to the temple to worship.  We are not reigning.  We are not being PRIESTS OF GOD BECAUSE WE DON'T ALL BELIEVE THE EXACT SAME THING WHICH WE WILL. Every knee shall bow.  Those who 'pierced' Him will be standing along side Enoch and Noah and Adam and John,  WHEN ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD BECOME CHRISTS, THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH.  AND THAT TRUTH WILL BE TAUGHT BY ALL. 

 

 God created us, gave us our own bodies, and is not going to turn around and take away our new bodies to 'absorb us' in some fashion and  'spiritual/no body' experience is being made a literal 'part' of Him I don't see it that way. What we read is really going to happen. 


 Do you think that because this time it will be US who are changed into HIS TYPE body that the 'earth' changes?  

[DeighAnn]

On 6/14/2021 at 4:55 PM, R. Hartono said:

 

 

Its true the 2nd coming of Jesus to rule the world Will happen after the great tribulation.

However, the wise virgins are taken to the Feast of the Bridegroom but the Foolish virgins are LEFT BEHIND ......sad sad sad as God will serve the world with Wormwood coffee free of charge.

 

And being under Gods protective wing, wearing the armor given to me by His Word so able to withstand the fiery darts of Satan, using the power sent by the Lord over all my enemies through the Holy Spirit and knowing that I learn obedience through whatever I go through and going through that fire so as to be purified makes me more than willing to lay down my life for the WORD OF GOD.  And that is before coming to the understanding how God feels about my blood laid down for Him and how HE LIKES TO RECOMPENSE, and vengeance is His, and we will see the Avenging of the souls under the altar.  

You know I could look for an easy way to 'get through it all' with the least hardship but I would rather look at it as a blessing,  

So I shall ENDURE to the end.  

YOU ALL are going to have to wait until THE END for any marriage to take place as there will not be a marriage taking place without the FULL BODY in attendance.  God doesn't work that way.  The two witnesses FOR SURE are not going to be 'kept out'.  OR THE 144.  And since that 'marriage' doesn't EVEN take place until 'the new heaven and earth', there is no NEED to take everyone up to heaven especially when we are told
 

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.


12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Isaiah 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.









 

Isaiah 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

Isaiah 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

Isaiah 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Isaiah 34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Isaiah 34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.



SOME SAY 'LEFT BEHIND'  sad sad sad

BUT GOD SAYS

Endure

hupomenó: to stay behind, to await, endure

Cognate: 5278 hypoménō – literally, remaining under (the load), bearing up (enduring); for the believer, this uniquely happens by God's power (cf. 1 Thes 3:5). See 5281 (hypomonē).


19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 WHILE IN HEAVEN THE ABOVE WOULD BE ????  IMPOSSIBLE

[Selah7]

24 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yes, it will happen quickly...... because the time is at hand. 

Not, when the time is at hand but because the time is at hand.... in the first century when John was told to write those words. 

And then he was told to oell everyone not to add or subtract from them. 

So Armageddon and Hamon-Gog have already happened?  No, not yet, Josh.

[DeighAnn]

Ok. PLEASE< 

If you are a futurist and  believe that partial prophecy fulfilled could be counted as fully/completed, would you please tell me to which verses you find these things and which ones give a second witness to that.  

I am a 'horrible' 'futurist' I'm sure because I don't really know what that means but I know that in 70AD the temple was destroyed (that probation also ended) but nothing else took place as it wasn't the 'fig tree' generation.  

 

[DeighAnn]

58 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Three points of clarification: 

1) In 70 AD one of the two temples that were then standing was destroyed. The other one still stands and stands for all eternity. 

2) There is no such thing as a "'fig tree' generation" in scripture, especially not in Matthew 24. 

3) We are all futurists (excepting the full-prets). Everyone here so far looks forward to a return of Christ. Modern futurists are those holding to the Dispensational-style futurisms invented in the 1800s. Big differences between the two. Just wanted to clarify my usage of the term "modern futurist". 

The parable of the fig tree (Christ told us to 'now learn') points to the final generation, shortened to 'fig tree generation' FOR discussion only and agreed, not mentioned as such in scripture


The destruction of the temple was the answer to ONLY one of the three questions.  THOUGH it is quite SIMPLE to divide up the WORD as such, we all know if it doesn't fit, we don't accept it.  



 

[Selah7]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

The tribulation of Matthew 24 is the topic. The left-behind version of the rapture is the topic. The fear associated with those events that is often provoked by some teachers is the topic. Armageddon is not to the topic. I invite you to contribute to the topic of conversation found in this op and to do so in a manner that furthers the conversation beyond what has already been posted. I will read it and consider it it and maybe reply but the off-topic content will have to be taken up with others. 

Good morning, Josh.  Please consider…. The battles of Armageddon and Hamon-Gog are the culmination of the tribulation.  Who fights these two battles?  It is God Himself— So Josh, this topic is not off-topic.

It will be a day of victory for the children of God and those who have overcome the beast and those who love the Lord and are His at His coming.

It will be a Day of Vengeance and recompense against those who have sided with the beast system and have been deceived by Satan into believing he is the Jesus returned, and have participated in doing his bidding (thus receiving his mark).

It is written that on that day, every knee will bow to the King of kings and Lord of lords, just as we have read time and time again in the Book of Ezekiel.  On that day, all nations and all peoples shall know that He is Lord. Also on that day, all peoples, both the just and the unjust, will be changed from flesh bodies into their incorruptible spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15) and so the Day of the Lord, the 1,000-year period we call the Millennium, will commence. 

Thanks for your consideration.  Selah…

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2021 at 8:51 PM, Josheb said:

I never said the last days and the end of the age are synonymous. Never said any such thing and nothing I did post should be construed to say otherwise. What I did say is Peter was living in the last days and the end of the ages. I can prove it, and I can do so with scripture alone, plainly read as written. I have, in fact, already shown how Peter and other epistolary authors stated the end of the ages was occurring while they wrote their letters. James, John, Paul, and Peter all agreed. I provided the scriptures' references with links. I have plainly stated we can debate when the last days may have ended but we can debate when they began or when the end of the ages occurred. If that content has already been read then go ack and read all my posts in this thread (yes, I now that's a lot), but don't ask me to unnecessarily repeat what has already posted just because it hasn't yet been read. 

Not going to search it out. I'll take you at your word.

 

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2021 at 8:43 PM, Josheb said:

And yet, as I said, it is a list universally accepted by all Christians from every theological perspective regardless of their eschatology and I can provide links to websites and books recommendations from Historicists, Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, Dispensationalists, and Idealists proving that fact. It's not just evidence; it is proof. 

The problem is not the standards. 

The problem is a lack of consistency. Everyone but a few internet forum posters from a given eschatology agrees on these standards. Their leaders agree but the common forum posters do not. I can cite a score of Premillennialists listing these very same standards so when a Premillenialist forum poster dissents all that has happened is they've shown they're not actually consistent with their own leaders. 

The list is not suborned by the Spirit, Diaste. 

The list was developed by regenerate, Spirit-filled believers relying on God's illumination, not their flesh and any protest to that effect only pits one believer against another, the leaders against the would-be student. So you go ahead and complain all you like but I'm only going to point you to a huge gigantic enormous mountainous pile of other Premillennialist - a large pile of your own kind - disputing your dissent. 

First let me say I meant 'subordinate' to the Spirit. My mistake. 

And I do not care what 1000 authors or teachers or learned men have to say though they pen 10,000 books of any stripe. No man or group of men is at the level of the Spirit of God when it comes to the most important aspect of the extant truth in Jesus Christ; understanding. If one is concentrating on the details and facts yet misses the concepts to which the details facts lead us nothing is gained.

I have heard all of that and used it in the past and still do in a cautious and limited way. Every single item on the list is subject to bias and I have been guilty of that. I won't rely on man made lists.

My own kind? Now that's just insulting.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:43 PM, Josheb said:

 

"Well, Josh, I am my own person and I don't follow anyone else; I make my own choices what to believe" (based on the Holy Spirit, of course ). The problem is all those other believers said the same thing and they have ALL agreed: those are the uniform basic precepts of sound Bible exegesis. You're not just choosing to disagree with me; you're choosing to disagree with ALL the other regenerate and Spirit-filled believers. 

I accept that. Christ is preeminent in all things and He said the Spirit would guide me in all truth and that does not start with the consensus of 'regenerate believers'.

You really think touting a group affiliation by label is convincing? That's an appeal to authority. Neither you nor I can know the spiritual status of another unless we witness the fruits. Since I am not a witness I care not and I will march under the banner of the One who is a proven guide.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:43 PM, Josheb said:

Now....

.....do you want me to prove this? Do a Google search of "biblical exegesis" or "basic rules of biblical exegesis" before answering because it won't take but 0.52 seconds for seven million and fifty thousand results to appear. Yes, I just checked. Take a random sample of twenty of the seven million results and compare them. A wealth of similarity will be found even though they won't all be Premil or Amil or Postmil..... 

I know it's true as I have used it in study and to a certain extent still do. It's useful in asking questions. I'm not denying the existence of the method, I reject the path required. There is a certain rigidity bent to clinical examination begging for dry analysis. No thank you.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:43 PM, Josheb said:

 

No, the list is not suborned by the Spirit but neither has the Spirit suborned the list and that should never be assumed to be the case. One of the leading formalizers of this list in the 19th century was a Premillennial Dispensationalist! Yes, I know you're not a Dispy. Good, neither am I. That doesn't change the fact all those guys agreed and if they were saved then they too were regenerate and Spirit-filled. 

Okay. Even if they are saved and spirit filled that means nothing when it comes to the truth. Two billion people claim that status. I'm not interested in appeals to status or condition. The truth of the matter is all that counts.

Have mercy on me, O God, according to Your loving devotion; according to Your great compassion, blot out my transgressions. 2Wash me clean of my iniquity

and cleanse me from my sin. 3For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. 4Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak and blameless when You judge.

God is my Judge, no one else.

Surely You desire truth in the inmost being; You teach me wisdom in the inmost place. - Psalm 51

This is the entirety of my argument. God, not man.