Beliefs on Origin of Life

[one.opinion]

6 minutes ago, watchinginawe said:

Also, if evolution is how God "creates", did He really rest the seventh day? Isn't he having to continue to labor?

I believe God transcends time, as He is eternal. Time is yet another creation of His. I suspect you probably agree. So what exactly is a "day of rest" for Him? I need to read some commentaries about this.

As for the second part, I tend to believe something along the lines of Michael Behe, that God's initial creation events set all creation into motion. Behe's analogy is a perfect billiards shot that pockets all balls from a single cue ball strike.

[watchinginawe]

1 minute ago, one.opinion said:

I believe God transcends time, as He is eternal. Time is yet another creation of His. I suspect you probably agree. So what exactly is a "day of rest" for Him? I need to read some commentaries about this.

As for the second part, I tend to believe something along the lines of Michael Behe, that God's initial creation events set all creation into motion. Behe's analogy is a perfect billiards shot that pockets all balls from a single cue ball strike.

I do not view the resting the seventh day as a day of rest and then beginning again to create, but rather God ceased creating any further after six days. God's work is now in sustaining His creation, that began on the seventh day and continues to this day. God's work of creation ceased after six days.

I'm glad you quoted this because I thought to come back and expound a bit more on whether continuing evolution is God "creating" or not. My view is that evolution occurs, but it is not an ongoing creative process that God has included into His creation. Thus, evolution is more of a sustaining feature of created life much like other sustaining features of our Earth and solar system and all the universe. I do not believe that God created just one living or type of organism which then "created" all the life we see today by natural evolutionary means. I believe the life we see today is beyond the means of natural evolution beginning from a simple form of life. So I am not in the common ancestry camp but rather the special creation camp where it comes to life.

I like Michael Behe quite a bit. However, I don't believe that Michael Behe believes that the flagellar motor evolved naturally. Behe is a Catholic and I have heard him speak to how he was raised and believed in the "perfect billiards shot" as a Catholic but came to a different view when he engaged in scientific work. He didn't believe that natural evolution could bring forth things that were "irreducibly complex". But I will look up and see if I can find a lecture on how he views this sort of thing. I am sure that he isn't a YEC, so you are correct there.

[watchinginawe]

22 minutes ago, watchinginawe said:

I'm glad you quoted this because I thought to come back and expound a bit more on whether continuing evolution is God "creating" or not. My view is that evolution occurs, but it is not an ongoing creative process that God has included into His creation. Thus, evolution is more of a sustaining feature of created life much like other sustaining features of our Earth and solar system and all the universe.

I wanted to mention and solicit input on how the fall of humanity plays into this as well. We know that God expelled Adam and Eve (humanity) from the Garden of Eden as a result of the fall. So some features of life that we see today is a result of the fall. I have heard varying opinions about things like viruses and toxic bacteria, etc. as perhaps being the result of the fall. I am not so certain about that personally, I don't believe that anything else was created but rather that expulsion from the Garden of Eden and sin brought upon humanity all that God prophesied in the judgment of Adam. 

Anyway, who wants to chime in and help with my view of the consequences of the fall on contemporary life in all of this?

Blessings,

[one.opinion]

1 hour ago, watchinginawe said:

I like Michael Behe quite a bit. However, I don't believe that Michael Behe believes that the flagellar motor evolved naturally. Behe is a Catholic and I have heard him speak to how he was raised and believed in the "perfect billiards shot" as a Catholic but came to a different view when he engaged in scientific work.

You are right about the bacterial flagellum. He has a few other examples that he believes could not have evolved, as well. This idea that he has moved past the "perfect billiards shot" does make sense based on his objections to evolution of irreducibly complex structures.

1 hour ago, watchinginawe said:

I'm glad you quoted this because I thought to come back and expound a bit more on whether continuing evolution is God "creating" or not. My view is that evolution occurs, but it is not an ongoing creative process that God has included into His creation.

I have a similar mind on this issue. Although Genesis does record a few days for creating different life forms, there are definite days for non-living things, followed by days of living things. To me, this seems to speak of creation of the physical foundations, and then bringing life from that, as is seen in the "bring forth" theme that is repeated.

1 hour ago, watchinginawe said:

I believe the life we see today is beyond the means of natural evolution beginning from a simple form of life. So I am not in the common ancestry camp but rather the special creation camp where it comes to life.

As a PhD Biologist, I believe the biggest hurdle for those that argue that could have occurred by itself is the evolution of the first cells. Based on the evidence we currently have (and I suspect it won't improve a great deal), God's direct creation of living things is more plausible than random assembly of building blocks of life becoming a living organism.

I'm glad we can find agreements as well as differences in our opinion. I believe we are all doing our best to synthesize what we know of the natural world and the Bible into our own single viewpoints. While interesting, none of this is foundational to the Christian faith, which is based on the fallen state of mankind and our need for accepting His sacrificial gift of life.

58 minutes ago, watchinginawe said:

I have heard varying opinions about things like viruses and toxic bacteria, etc. as perhaps being the result of the fall.

And T rex eating watermelon... (http://cellsinculture.blogspot.com/2008/03/t-rex-ate-giant-melons.html). I've not seen what I would describe as convincing descriptions of how pathogens or carnivores arose.

 

[enoob57]

Seeing how God was the only One present at least till the fourth day; I'm going with what He has said....

[David1701]

On 6/14/2021 at 2:14 PM, watchinginawe said:

This is not an "evolution" poll. This is to ascertain the forum's thoughts as to how life began.

I would say "naturally" means according to how Science currently views things, that life forms naturally when conditions are favorable.

I would say "supernaturally" means that life can't form naturally and was therefore created by God.

I am in the "supernatural" camp.

I believe this is truly a binary poll. Maybe there are those who just "don't know", but I would think that is very few.

Blessings,

God created life supernaturally (i.e. not by natural processes).  He created Adam straight from the ground and made Eve from one of Adam's ribs.  The different kinds of animals and plants were created within the six literal days of creation, as the Bible says, and did not evolve over millions of years.

Edited June 19, 2021 by David1701

[one.opinion]

I agree 100% that nothing would be here without the Creator.

[Slug1]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:51 AM, watchinginawe said:

Agreed. Everything after the first day of creation is a second order creation of God, thus it was "caused" or "made" by God to form from existing created matter from the first day. Thus, life also is a second order creation. Creation is referred to as a specific "work" of God that occurred during a finite period of "six days".

If God just created it all on day 1 and then let things just progress from there as He set into motion, I would not understand how it is that He "rested" from His work on the seventh day. Also, if evolution is how God "creates", did He really rest the seventh day? Isn't he having to continue to labor? I believe creation has ceased and God has rested from creating and now sustains His creation. 

Concerning your response and the underlined part in the quote, we also cannot forget that God declared creation perfect. Evolution is when something (within) is not perfect and requires improvement.

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, Slug1 said:

God declared creation perfect

Actually He declared it 'very good'. Chaos was left to roam and only Eden was perfect and that was just a small area.

[Slug1]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Actually He declared it 'very good'. Chaos was left to roam and only Eden was perfect and that was just a small area.

Hooah, the English term "perfect" can be misconstrued. It is very interesting that after each day of creating, God said it was good and only after viewing a completed work in creating mankind, was creation... very good.

There is no place for evolvement of life after all was "very" good.