Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Guest shiloh357]

23 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You're sort of correct. Christian and Jew are synonymous with the being in Christ, if they are in Christ, then they are the same.

Wrong.  "Jew" is an ethnic term.  It is never a theological term. 

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Which is all that matters. The Jew in Christ and the Gentile in Christ are equivalent in this regard, they are both in Christ. Col 3, "Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

There is a difference between saying that a saved Jew and a saved Gentile are one and equal in Christ, vs.  claiming that "Jew"  and "Christian" are equivalent, interchangeable terms.   You cannot move the goal posts and confuse the issue.   

I am talking about those who claim that they are "Jew" because of their faith in Jesus, or that the "Church" is Israel.  Those views are not correct and are not found in the Bible.  False teachers are trying to pencil those views in the Bible.

 

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Then all are the same. No difference, no segregation. But this has to be understood from the new creation perspective. It's not about ethnic divisions.

Jews and Gentile are on equal grounds when it comes to how they access the grace of God.  From a spiritual standpoint, there is no difference.   "Jew" is not a spiritual term, though.  It is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile Christians.

 

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The Jew in Christ is no longer a Jew, they are in Christ. The Gentile in Christ is no longer a Gentile but is in Christ. They are both in Christ. If A=C and B=C then A=B. This is the ultimate understanding. Those in Christ is to whom scripture is directed from beginning to end.

Being in Christ doesn't turn a Jew into something else.   Being a Gentile in Christ doesn't turn a Gentile into something else.  The Bible never says that.   

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

The point that Paul is making is that ethnic pedigree, social status and gender do not divide us.   He is not saying those divisions don't exist.  He is not saying that men and women are no longer men and women in Christ.  That is an absurd argument.
 

 

 

[n2thelight]

18 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Being in Christ doesn't turn a Jew into something else.   Being a Gentile in Christ doesn't turn a Gentile into something else.  The Bible never says that.   

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

The point that Paul is making is that ethnic pedigree, social status and gender do not divide us.   He is not saying those divisions don't exist.  He is not saying that men and women are no longer men and women in Christ.  That is an absurd argument.

Simple question,does the body of Christ,ie the Church include the Jew's?

[n2thelight]

The pre-tribber says… “The rapture can happen at any moment because Jesus said that no man knoweth the day nor the hour. The rapture could happen right now!”

Really? Where did Jesus say that? You’re not sure? Let me help you…he said it in the Olivet Discourse:

Matt 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Mark 13:32 “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

In fact, that’s the ONLY place he said it. But I thought you pre-tribbers think that the Olivet Discourse is only talking to the Jews? Didn’t you say it was not about the rapture? Is it about the rapture or not? If not, then why are you using this verse to say that no man knoweth the day nor the hour of the rapture? If it is about the rapture, then you will have to deal with these verses:

Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

[n2thelight]

The pre-tribber says… “Jesus will come in the rapture as a thief in the night!”

Really? Where does the Bible say that? Let’s look at it together:

1Thess 5:1-2 “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

But let’s keep reading…

1Thess 5:3-6 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

[n2thelight]

The pre-tribber says… “The rapture must be before the tribulation because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess 5:9). God has always delivered his people before he poured out his judgment (e.g. Noah, Lot, etc.).

God’s wrath will not be poured out until after the tribulation!

Read these scriptures:

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

So the sun and moon will be darkened after the tribulation.

Rev 6:12-17 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;” And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

God’s wrath does not come until after the tribulation. The great day of his wrath (i.e. the Day of the Lord) comes after the opening of the sixth seal. The rapture takes place the same day, just before God pours out his wrath.

Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Simple question,does the body of Christ,ie the Church include the Jew's?

There are Jewish people who get saved and are part of the Church, yes.   

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Wrong.  "Jew" is an ethnic term.  It is never a theological term. 

There is a difference between saying that a saved Jew and a saved Gentile are one and equal in Christ, vs.  claiming that "Jew"  and "Christian" are equivalent, interchangeable terms.   You cannot move the goal posts and confuse the issue.   

I am talking about those who claim that they are "Jew" because of their faith in Jesus, or that the "Church" is Israel.  Those views are not correct and are not found in the Bible.  False teachers are trying to pencil those views in the Bible.

 

Jews and Gentile are on equal grounds when it comes to how they access the grace of God.  From a spiritual standpoint, there is no difference.   "Jew" is not a spiritual term, though.  It is never spiritualized to refer to Gentile Christians.

 

Being in Christ doesn't turn a Jew into something else.   Being a Gentile in Christ doesn't turn a Gentile into something else.  The Bible never says that.   

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

The point that Paul is making is that ethnic pedigree, social status and gender do not divide us.   He is not saying those divisions don't exist.  He is not saying that men and women are no longer men and women in Christ.  That is an absurd argument.
 

It doesn't matter really. No amount of reasoning is going to change the plan of God. The only truly important thing in all this is our salvation in Jesus Christ. Are we doers and not hearers only? Do we confess His name? Do we believe on Him? If so, then when the storm comes, and it is coming, we will not be moved. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It doesn't matter really.

 

Actually it does matter.  The notion that the Church is "Israel"  seriously affects theology and is a false teaching that was born out of the anti-Semitism and hatred of the Jews by the early church fathers.  It was the source for all of the persecution of the Jews culminating with the Holocaust. 

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No amount of reasoning is going to change the plan of God.

Yes, people will continue to reject the Bible's teaching about Israel and continue to hold on to the heretical notion that the Church is Israel, but in the end that false teaching will dissipate and Israel will go on into the Millennium and fulfill their prophetic role laid out for them by God. 

 

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The only truly important thing in all this is our salvation in Jesus Christ.

It is important, but it is not the ONLY truly important things.

 

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Are we doers and not hearers only? Do we confess His name? Do we believe on Him? If so, then when the storm comes, and it is coming, we will not be moved. 

Those who have rooted their theology in false teachings like this silly notion that they are Israel, won't survive the storm.

[Diaste]

On 6/28/2018 at 2:14 AM, Sojourner414 said:

Because the Church hadn't been revealed yet; it was still a secret in God.

That said: until you, Steve Conley and Diaste stop twisting everything we say and misrepresenting the Pre-Trib Stance, we're done trying to reach out to you or even have a conversation with you on this. Every bit of evidence we present gets distorted by you folks and you have no issue with that; but let us disagree with you and it's practically sacrilege!!

And it's not just one reply, but 5-6 for every 1-2 of our comments! When it takes Steve 4-5 posts to try to answer 1-2 of mine using left-handed insults that border on violating the ToS, then we know that this isn't a discussion, but a witch hunt.

I'm fine with the answers I've provided so far, and will simply stand on those for others to read and consider. When you're ready to have a mature, intelligent discussion that doesn't consist of you three hurling accusations our way that would be more at home in a 3rd grade schoolyard, let us know. We'll be happy to talk then.

-Sojo414.

Please tell me from the major points below what has been misrepresented by me regarding the Pre-Trib position:

Matt 24 is strictly to the Jews.

The church and the Jews are distinct and separate.

The 70th week is equivalent to the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is equivalent to God's wrath.

The church is not appointed to wrath.

The Jewish people are appointed to the Day of the Lord.

 

 

[n2thelight]

24 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually it does matter.  The notion that the Church is "Israel"  seriously affects theology and is a false teaching that was born out of the anti-Semitism and hatred of the Jews by the early church fathers.  It was the source for all of the persecution of the Jews culminating with the Holocaust. 

Yet all of Israel are not Jew's you need to figure out who Israel is,hint,it's not that tiny nation over in the middle east