Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Robtay7123]

Verses like Revelation 3:10 where Jesus promises to keep the faithful " from " the hour of trial ( you can only be kept from something if you are not involved in it ) and the example of Lot,  where the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah COULDN'T occur until LOT was taken to safety. 

[Diaste]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:31 PM, Robtay7123 said:

Verses like Revelation 3:10 where Jesus promises to keep the faithful " from " the hour of trial ( you can only be kept from something if you are not involved in it ) and the example of Lot,  where the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah COULDN'T occur until LOT was taken to safety. 

Rev 3:10

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth"

"keep you from"

Greek

"tereo se ek"

"Guard you within"

"tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact."

'ek'; from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards, properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it out-come oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).."

Would not have to watch or guard from the interior to an outcome if no one was in the interior. Since 'ek' is 'out of' there can be no out of if no one is there to watch, maintain or preserve. If we don't go in we can't come out from.

There won't be a pretrib rapture. 

[Robtay7123]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 3:10

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth"

"keep you from"

Greek

"tereo se ek"

"Guard you within"

"tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact."

'ek'; from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards, properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it out-come oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).."

Would not have to watch or guard from the interior to an outcome if no one was in the interior. Since 'ek' is 'out of' there can be no out of if no one is there to watch, maintain or preserve. If we don't go in we can't come out from.

There won't be a pretrib rapture. 

That's a very interesting point. But I have another that you might want to consider. The church is the bride of Christ. Christ loves his bride. Do you really think he would allow his bride to suffer, or would he completely protect his bride? Also,  the whole point of the tribulation is to judge those on the earth.  It may doesn't make sense that his faithful sheep would be in the same boat as the objects of his rage. There must be a distinction. I am curious though. Do you deny the Rapture completely,  or just a pre-trib Rapture? No judgement,  just curiosity. 

[B-B]

9 minutes ago, Robtay7123 said:

The church is the bride of Christ. Christ loves his bride. Do you really think he would allow his bride to suffer, or would he completely protect his bride?

Have you read Foxes Book of Martyrs? 😀

Edited April 24, 2022 by B-B

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, Robtay7123 said:

That's a very interesting point. But I have another that you might want to consider. The church is the bride of Christ. Christ loves his bride. Do you really think he would allow his bride to suffer, or would he completely protect his bride?

Would you consider the apostles part of the bride of Christ? Or the untold millions who died for the name of Jesus over the centuries, and even today die in His name?

The Bride of Christ is identified by name in only one book, Revelation, and it's the city. We are all guests. The oblique references to betrothal in the Epistles are similes:

Jesus said in Matt 9:15

"And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."

So we are wedding guests. 

3 minutes ago, Robtay7123 said:

Also,  the whole point of the tribulation is to judge those on the earth.  It may doesn't make sense that his faithful sheep would be in the same boat as the objects of his rage. There must be a distinction. I am curious though. Do you deny the Rapture completely,  or just a pre-trib Rapture? No judgement,  just curiosity. 

There is a distinction. GT is not wrath of God. Only part of the 70th week near the end is wrath of God. The only two examples I know speak to this idea:

Noah and Lot.

Both endured a lot of evil and were rescued immediately before the hand of God destroyed. People make the mistake of likening all of the 70th week with God's wrath. Jesus said,

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

This parallels Rev 6

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

So God's wrath only begins after the lights go out.

And no, I don't deny there's a gathering. I don't call it the rapture. Paul calls it harpazo. 

[Robtay7123]

59 minutes ago, B-B said:

Have you read Foxes Book of Martyrs? 😀

That's not the same thing. General persecution in this life is not the same thing as God's judgement in the ungodly. The tribulation is specifically a period of judgement by God himself on the world.  It goes against everything about the loving merciful character of Jesus to put his perfect sinless bride through that. It doesn't make sense. 

[B-B]

1 hour ago, Robtay7123 said:

Christ loves his bride. Do you really think he would allow his bride to suffer, or would he completely protect his bride?

Hey there 😀

I was 'answering' this question (which I've highlighted for you in bold). The Lord does indeed allow His Church to suffer. Whether pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib eschatology is the correct interpretation of Scripture, I really couldn't be certain....however I am certain that we may indeed be called to go through some great suffering, for the Lords sake, as some of our Brethren in the Middle-east and Far East are currently having to do so.

Edited April 24, 2022 by B-B

[Robtay7123]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Would you consider the apostles part of the bride of Christ? Or the untold millions who died for the name of Jesus over the centuries, and even today die in His name?

The Bride of Christ is identified by name in only one book, Revelation, and it's the city. We are all guests. The oblique references to betrothal in the Epistles are similes:

Jesus said in Matt 9:15

"And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."

So we are wedding guests. 

There is a distinction. GT is not wrath of God. Only part of the 70th week near the end is wrath of God. The only two examples I know speak to this idea:

Noah and Lot.

Both endured a lot of evil and were rescued immediately before the hand of God destroyed. People make the mistake of likening all of the 70th week with God's wrath. Jesus said,

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

This parallels Rev 6

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

So God's wrath only begins after the lights go out.

And no, I don't deny there's a gathering. I don't call it the rapture. Paul calls it harpazo. 

Of course the apostles were part of the bride. Every saved person since the Holy Spirit came to mankind is part of the bride. HOWEVER there is a big difference between the general persecution by the world on Christians, and the divine judgement on the ungodly, which is what Revelation is talking about. Also,  I would say the wrath starts with the breaking of the first seal. The judgements are all connected. You can't just say the wrath doesn't happen until you see the word. The action speaks for itself. Most commentators and scholars agree that the tribulation will be 7 years. This is based on the 70th week of Daniel and the 7 year pact with Israel. However even if the tribulation was only 3.5 years,  it wouldn't change anything. True,  Lot and Noah were both protected. God didn't let his judgement hurt them. So another possibility could exist. If God were to allow his bride to be in the world during the most intense period of judgement in history,  he would have to supernaturally protect her from harm. The bride is innocent. God CANNOT judge her. Does it make sense to you that the bride would be forced to witness the horrors brought on the world? That doesn't sound like the loving God I read about in scripture. Finally,  I'm glad you don't dismiss the rapture, even though you call it a different name. I think the word rapture has become an unnecessary stumbling block by believers who wish to nitpick and argue instead of build up and edify. Rapture is a proper word to use. It comes from the Latin and is an English translation word. But it means to " snatch up " which is what I see in the 1 Thessalonians passage. 

[Robtay7123]

16 minutes ago, B-B said:

Hey there 😀

I was 'answering' this question (which I've highlighted for you in bold). The Lord does indeed allow His Church to suffer. Whether pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib eschatology is the correct interpretation of Scripture, I really couldn't be certain....however I am certain that we may indeed be called to go through some great suffering, for the Lords sake, as some of our Brethren in the Middle-east and Far East are currently having to do so.

I think you missed my point. I WASN'T saying that the church or bride doesn't suffer. I was saying that we are not the object of God's wrath, which is what the purpose of the tribulation really is. They are clearly judgements by God himself,  not simply the normal suffering of living in a fallen world. Our judgement for sin took place at the cross. God can't judge us now that we have already been judged righteousness. The bride CANNOT go through the specific judgements God has saved for the ungodly, but yes,  we will ensure suffering caused by Satan and man until we are glorified. Hopefully that didn't sound too argumentative. It wasn't supposed to. God Bless you. 

[B-B]

4 minutes ago, Robtay7123 said:

Hopefully that didn't sound too argumentative. It wasn't supposed to.

😃 not at all! It's a discussion. Thanks for clarifying.

God bless you too.