Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FJK]

15 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

6th Bowl - The River Euphrates dries up to prepare the army of 200 Million to cross.

Would this mean that if we see the Euphrates dry up the 6th Bowl is here?  Or is it only here when that army actually arrives to cross it?

[Montana Marv]

20 minutes ago, FJK said:

Would this mean that if we see the Euphrates dry up the 6th Bowl is here?  Or is it only here when that army actually arrives to cross it?

The Euphrates drying up is the 6h Bowl, which means the 200 Million person army is about to cross it.  Ponder on this,  How large is this army?  It is approximately 220 square miles of densely packed individuals riding on horses, at about 32 sq ft per rider in a very tight formation.  Loosen it up and it could cover over 250 sq miles.  A ribbon 1/4 mile wide would stretch out for 1000 miles.  How long would it take this army from China to get to the Euphrates River?  6th Trumpet onset, to 6th Bowl at crossing;  About 3000 miles to cover.  If they covered 20 miles per day, it would take about 150 days for the journey or about 5 months, if 15 miles per day, would take 6 1/2 months.  Then how long from the Euphrates River to Armageddon, another 600 miles, or 30 to 40 more days.  This kind of gives a time line of how long the Bowl Judgments last, about 6 months.  It is very conceivable that the Seals last 2 years, the Trumpets one year, and the Bowls 6 months, or 3 1/2 years total.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[DeighAnn]

On 3/28/2023 at 12:37 PM, farouk said:

@DeighAnn There is nothing new about this sort of discussion.

In my humble impression, there is a distinction about what and who is in view in these two verses: 1) 1 Corinthians 11.26 and 2)Matthew 24.21.

1) "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

2) "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Yet here it is yet again, the same things that are always always put forth

while the same questions never answered, are not answered yet again.  

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

2nd Seal - to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other.

3rd Seal - Famine, a quart of wheat for  a day's wage, and 3 quarts of barley.

4th Seal - 1/4th of those on earth are killed by sword, famine, and plague.

6th Seal - Great earthquake, every island and mountain was removed from its place.

1st Trumpet - 1/3rd of the earth was burned up, 1/3 of the trees, all green grass burned.

2nd Trumpet - 1/3rd of the sea turned to blood, 1/3rd of sea creatures die.

3rd Trumpet - 1/3rd of the waters turned bitter.

4th Trumpet - 1/3 of sun, moon and stars struck

5th Trumpet - Locust out of the Abyss, torment for 5 months for those without the seal of God on their foreheads.

6th Trumpet - Army of 200 Million come out from the East to kill 1/3rd of mankind.  The rest of mankind did not repent and kept on worshiping demons and idols.

7th Trumpet - But in the days of the 7th trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished.

1st Bowl - Painful sores broke out on those with the MOB.

2nd Bowl - All the seas turn to blood, all sea creatures die.

3rd Bowl - 1/3rd of the rivers and springs turn to blood.

4th Bowl - And the sun was given power to scorch people, but they refused to repent.

5th Bowl - The Beast's kingdom was thrown into darkness.

6th Bowl - The River Euphrates dries up to prepare the army of 200 Million to cross.

7th Bowl - The greatest of all earthquakes; every island fled, and no more mountains, and hailstones fell.  One land mass, Jerusalem is now the top peak on earth, as it was during the Garden of Eden. Living water flows out from it.

Then when in Heaven, some of your Believing great, great, great grand parents will ask you; why did you go through all of this, what did you achieve.  They will say, we achieved everything by the time we died.

And many Post-Trib Believers will be an eye witness to all of the this calamity.  Where oh where will you escape to and not be a fatality.

One needs to ask questions:  4th Seal, where are these 1/4 killed at, location.  6th Seal, every island and mountain were moved, what is being accomplished with this event.  1st Trumpet, which 1/3 of the earth is being burned and why.  2nd Trumpet, which 1/3 of the sea is turning to blood and why.  3rd Trumpet, which 1/3 of the waters turn bitter, and why.  4th Trumpet, why is this event taking place (cause and effect).  6th Trumpet, 1/3 of mankind are killed by the 200 Million, Where, location.  2nd Bowl, all the seas turn to blood.  3rd Bowl, 1/3 of springs and rivers turn to blood, where, location, why.  6th Bowl, Euphrates river dries up, Why.  7th Bowl, Greatest of all earthquakes, no mountains, no islands. Significance

Is there purpose in these, Why in this sequence.  Are they all random?  Or is there Purpose and Order.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

In all the classic pretrib passages we never see any timing.

What we see is; the Lord descends, there is a loud voice, a trump, and then the gathering.

Beyond this singular event consisting of four parts, we see no timing in relation to other events such as: seals, bowls or trumps.

Until we look at the Gospel's account in the Olivet Discourse. Then we see the one and only Lord God Himself tell us exactly when the gathering occurs. 

I don't know about the rest of you all, but when I don't find any timing or order in 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 15, as such important timing occurs in relation to the A of D and GT, but I do find that timing in relation to the A of D and GT in the Olivet Discourse, in the words of our Lord, and in 2 Thess 2; I have to go with what's clearly written, and not some made up timing that doesn't exist in the very passages we are told timing and order exists, and it's pretrib.

I Thess 4

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words."

There is no timing here in relation to the A of D or GT. All we see is; at the coming of the Lord the gathering will happen. We don't see when that coming of the Lord takes place in the end of the age. 

I Cor 15

"51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "

Here we at least can discern the gathering happens at the last trump. When does that last trump sound? In this passage it's not said. So to say it's pretrib, post trib or some other time isn't supported by 1 Cor 15:51-52. From these two passages there simply is no way to nail down when the gathering occurs during the end of the age, or before the end of the age, or whenever.

2 Thess 2

"1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness ^a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Paul lays it out here. The man of sin and the A of D come first. Now we have the timing; after the A of D. 

Jesus says:

Matt 24

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ 

^a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

 21For then there will be great distress,

unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ ^b

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

And then all the peoples of the earth ^c will mourn when

they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,

with power and great glory. ^d 

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call,

and they will gather his elect

from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The bold above is the only order possible. No gathering of anyone is presented before the A of D, only after; 2 Thess 2 agrees with the words of Jesus in Matt 24.

So the pretrib ideology has no timing whatever for the coming of the Lord in relation to other end of the age events, seemingly satisfied somehow to rely on made up timing and events that are never spoken of throughout scripture. 

The Gathering of the Saints will only happen after the A of D and after GT. No other scenario is possible. 

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

In all the classic pretrib passages we never see any timing.

There is no timing in Scripture for when the Bridegroom takes his Bride away. All Matt 25:13 - says is to keep watch.  Nothing else.

This (Matt 25) is one of many "the kingdom of heaven is like" parables.

Now pertaining to 1 Thes 4, is this a resurrection, or is this an ascension.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The bold above is the only order possible. No gathering of anyone is presented before the A of D, only after; 2 Thess 2 agrees with the words of Jesus in Matt 24.

Matt 24 is speaking to those of Israel, not of the Church.  Those in Judea are to flee.

I Thes 4  the (Harpozo) is a retrieval, not a gathering.

And with Matt 24:31, when did these elect get to heaven to be gathered. No mention how long they have been there.  Maybe 7 years.

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

So the pretrib ideology has no timing whatever for the coming of the Lord in relation to other end of the age events, seemingly satisfied somehow to rely on made up timing and events that are never spoken of throughout scripture. 

The Gathering of the Saints will only happen after the A of D and after GT. No other scenario is possible. 

You have this right;

 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

somehow to rely on made up timing and events that are never spoken of throughout scripture

What did Jesus Christ, the Word, Since the Beginning, All Scripture say about the time the Bridegroom will snatch the Bride away?  You do not know the day or hour.

Matt 24:36 And for those who watch; No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son (who is All Scripture), but only the Father.  As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.  People were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark.

Let's look at a few things;  3rd Seal, a quart of wheat for a days wage, and 3 quarts of barley...  6th Seal, they call out for the rocks to fall on them; 5th Trumpet, in these days men will seek, death, but will no find it.  1st Bowl, ugly and painful sores broke out on those who have the MOB.  Here is your only chance to eat and drink and marry.  The 4th Bowl - and the sun scorched people with fire.  And they refused to repent.

And many say they know when the Bridegroom comes.  If One does know, then one is calling Jesus Christ the Word, who is All Scripture a Liar.  For He says that only the Father Knows.  May I call this many who know,  "God the Father".

I go by how the Ancient Wedding process took place.  The Father sends his Son to go get the Bride.  The Son will not know until this time.  And Yet You All Know.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[DeighAnn]

Since we are just repeating stuff that proves there is NOTHING ACTUALLY WRITTEN


Pre trib -  A man made doctrine that USES everything Jewish in planning their ESCAPE, grabbing with them as they go ALL the GOOD PROMISES like they REALLY DID endured to the end of something other than their life

WHILE

boastfully leaving THOSE who were blinded for salvation to go out to the world behind, to endure to the end themselves, to receive the promises.   


HOW can some one say they 'endure to the end',

WHILE at the same time saying THERE WILL BE THOSE who will be LEFT BEHIND??


It calls those who dare to call it out as THE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS it is (as it not only makes void WHAT IS WRITTEN, it places above that WHAT ISN'T, and worse yet, it CALLS INTO QUESTION EVERYTHING THAT IS)

AS THOSE WHO CAN NOT SEE, like they are the ones NOT FOLLOWING GODS COMMANDS.  



Talk about a doctrine that from beginning to end makes what is RIGHT wrong and WHAT is wrong right.  

WHAT IS 'THE OPPOSITE' OF THESE VERSES?  

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:38 KJV

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16:24 KJV

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." Mark 10:21 KJV

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2 KJV

JESUS DIED.  Short of that, have to ENDURE TO THE END.  


To DENY ONESELF, does not ALLOW one to SEEK to escape, RATHER THAN endure to the end


"Save thyself, and come down from the cross." Mark 15:30 KJV
PRE TRIB in a nutshell



"Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Matthew 13:21 KJV

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 KJV


"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:8 KJV
 

52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

HE PRAYED we NOT BE taken out of the world but delivered from evil. 

WHAT is the EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT?  


30When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

31(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them.



DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN

IF SOMEONE SAYS

YOU WILL SEE CHRIST FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER BEFORE SATAN COMES 


HOW DID JESUS SAY IT?   BELIEVE HIM NOT.  


Come out of BABYLON.  

 

[Montana Marv]

Yes, don't be deceived by anyone.  For those who project themselves as what. Pious.  One must work for their salvation, they must go through a particular test to be counted worthy. Meaning they take a stance, with no Biblical Support.  Oh, but the Scripture implies the Bridegroom will come at a particular later date.  When None Exists.  Some without understanding of who Christ is; (the Word/Scripture from before the Beginning).  Only the Father Knows - Harpozo

The only plausible choice should follow the Ancient Wedding Process.

The Father selects the Bride for His Son, Betrothal.  The Bridegroom prepares a place for her at his fathers house.  When all is ready, The Father says, go get her.  The Bridegroom retrieves his Bride and they go into the wedding chamber.  When they come out the chamber the wedding supper begins.  Sometimes a 7 day period, according to some customs.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:55 AM, Montana Marv said:

I go by how the Ancient Wedding process took place.  The Father sends his Son to go get the Bride.  The Son will not know until this time.  And Yet You All Know.

As Jesus said, there are signs of the nearness of the day. Just like we can tell when the seasons are going to change or see an approaching storm; we know it's coming, we don't know when it happens precisely.

A pretrib rebuttal use the seals and trumps to pretend one can simply count the trumps and know when the Day will arrive.

However, there is no way to know when any trump will sound; we only have the order of the sounding, not a time and date.

We know the 7th trump will sound after the 6th trump. But can we know the moment of the sounding of the 7th trump? Can we search out the day it will sound? Even if we can know that the 7th is the next to sound, we cannot know the month, week, day or  hour of that sounding.

This is perfectly in keeping with the prophecy, "No man knows the day or hour, but only our Father in heaven."

We will know the general time of Jesus arrival. We will not know the precise moment, no matter one's take on Rapture Theory.

[Diaste]

On 3/31/2023 at 9:55 AM, Montana Marv said:

Matt 24 is speaking to those of Israel, not of the Church.  Those in Judea are to flee.

I Thes 4  the (Harpozo) is a retrieval, not a gathering.

And with Matt 24:31, when did these elect get to heaven to be gathered. No mention how long they have been there.  Maybe 7 years.

Oh?

Let's look:

While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’

Here we have the first indication of who the audience is. This isn't for the Jews at all since they don't believe in Christ as person of any import. This statement signifies the beginning of the dynamic that will exist between the audience and the end of the age; the battle between those who follow Christ and the false Christs. This is not for orthodox, liturgical, ritualistic, Torah reciting Jewry.

and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The 'you' here is the same as in verse 4.It's 'you who follow Me. Not Jews. Well, Jews too, should they listen to His words.

Witnessing to All Nations
(Mark 13:9–13; Luke 21:10–19)

9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

The Jews are not going to be hated by all nations because of the name of Jesus Christ. The Jews made sure the nations know they reject Jesus Christ to this very day; what with all the talk of the Temple and the preparations and practicing Temple ritual, in full view of the whole world. Jesus isn't speaking to Jews here either; He is speaking to those who follow Him. The only ones hated by all nations for His name's sake are Christians.

 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jews do not preach the Gospel. The focus here is still on the person and message of Jesus Christ. Who spreads the Gospel to the nations? Not Jews. Christians do this exclusively.

So when it comes to whom in Judea flee, it's not just Jews. Israel is culturally, ethnically and religiously diverse as any country. For the population size some say it's the most diverse country in the world. Jesus does not say, "Let the Jews in Judea flee." He says:

"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

That can be members of any racial, ethnic, cultural or religious group; not a reference to specific group based on religion or ethnicity.

So then, Jesus is speaking to Christians, and anyone in Judea, throughout Matt 24. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Diaste