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Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

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Rollinthunder, this is very interesting. I had not thought about some of this in the way that you presented it, tho I do believe the rapture will happen prior to the tribulation.

I know we go by scripture and not by dreams, but I had a dream years ago. In it I was walking in the front yard of a house on a nice day, blue sky, etc.

Then it was like I heard a voice whisper in my ear "behold he comes, go out to meet him" and instantly I KNEW it was the rapture. I looked up to the sky and it seemed like at a far distance I saw a bright light around the distant figure of a person and instantly felt that I was going---then I woke up!

The interesting thing is, I had never really thought of the Holy Spirit whispering in my ear when it was time. But now I feel pretty certain that He will!

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Guest choobaca

To All pretribbers,

Jesus in John 6 tells us more than a couple of times that He will raise up believers on the "LAST DAY".

When is the LAST DAY?

If FIRST means none before it but some after it, and LAST means some before it but none after it, then where do you place it in chronology?

It seems to me, that the rapture is sequential with the Coming and the resurrection per 1 Thess 4:13-18. We also see in 1 Cor that we are to eat of this bread and as often as we do, we celebrate the Lord's death till He comes. Therefore, there must be an end to an age that Jesus says there is a last day in. I propose to you that the last day refers to the last of Man's day which then ushers in the Day of the Lord. That is when He comes. Now if you call the great Trib the Day of the Lord, you do an injustice to the scriptures. The Great Day of God almighty is not synonomis to the Great Tribulation. The GT is still "man's day" since it will culminate in satan's minion the AC. And when this GT is shortened by Christ, then His wrath is poured out. It is not during the start of the GT, but at it's end.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thoughts, comments and rebuttal is welcome.

IHS,

choobaca

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Hi choobaca,

I like the way you lay things out, so we can see from what angle you are coming from. I think I see what you mean here, although we understand it differently. This is a very good question you bring. I'll take a shot at it when time permits. If someone wants to take a shot ahead of me, go right ahead.

Good post! :P

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Hi choobaca,

I like the way you lay things out, so we can see from what angle you are coming from. I think I see what you mean here, although we understand it differently. This is a very good question you bring. I'll take a shot at it when time permits. If someone wants to take a shot ahead of me, go right ahead.

Good post! ;)

Awaiting you to take it on! :P:D:blink::P

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Hi choobaca,

I like the way you lay things out, so we can see from what angle you are coming from.  I think I see what you mean here, although we understand it differently.  This is a very good question you bring.  I'll take a shot at it when time permits.  If someone wants to take a shot ahead of me, go right ahead. 

Good post!  ;)

Awaiting you to take it on! :P:D:blink::P

Me Too! :t3:

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To All pretribbers,

Jesus in John 6 tells us more than a couple of times that He will raise up believers on the "LAST DAY".

When is the LAST DAY?

If FIRST means none before it but some after it, and LAST means some before it but none after it, then where do you place it in chronology?

It seems to me, that the rapture is sequential with the Coming and the resurrection per 1 Thess 4:13-18. We also see in 1 Cor that we are to eat of this bread and as often as we do, we celebrate the Lord's death till He comes. Therefore, there must be an end to an age that Jesus says there is a last day in. I propose to you that the last day refers to the last of Man's day which then ushers in the Day of the Lord. That is when He comes. Now if you call the great Trib the Day of the Lord, you do an injustice to the scriptures. The Great Day of God almighty is not synonomis to the Great Tribulation. The GT is still "man's day" since it will culminate in satan's minion the AC. And when this GT is shortened by Christ, then His wrath is poured out. It is not during the start of the GT, but at it's end.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thoughts, comments and rebuttal is welcome.

IHS,

choobaca

Hi choobaca,

Thanks for your patients.

You bring up a valid point, however, there is another way of looking at this. We would probably both agree that He is talking about the resurrection here. Resurrection means to rise to life again, or to be revived. It does not mean to be caught up, like in the twinkling of an eye (rapture). When Jesus was resurrected, he walked the earth for 40 days before He ascended to heaven. Some now believe that the resurrection is the rapture, but this can not be. Lazarus was resurrected, but he wasn't raptured. Also, their are two separate resurrections, and they are 1000 years apart. The first is the resurrection of the just, the second is for the unjust. If the resurrection is the rapture as some believe, then everyone will be raptured, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, just a thousand years apart, although they won't have the same destination.

So what does He mean by last day? And why are the righteous going to be raised for this last day.

I believe the last day here, is not referring to a 24 hour day. I believe this is referring to the "Day of the Lord." The day of the Lord will last 1000 years. It's the Lord's Sabbath Day, the millennial reign. I would consider it a big rip off for believers to be raised up for just a 24 hour day. The Lord Himself promised that we would reign with Him for 1000 years. I believe the last day, and the day of the Lord are the same thing. The entire church will be raised up in that day to rule and reign with Christ.

2 Peter 3:8 - "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Psalm 90:4 - "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

The Jews were commanded to keep Sabbath day Holy much like we christians are to take communion as remembrence of Christ' death, burial and resurrection, for both were a shadow of a greater time to come. We can see a model of it in the seven days of creation. Man was to have dominion for 6 days (6000 yrs), then Christ is to receive all dominion , power and authority for the millenium, which is the 7th day. The day of the Lord will bring man's dominion to a close. It is the great and terrible day of the Lord, great for the righteous, but terrible for the unrighteous.

The Jews had believed in the resurrection long before anyone ever mentioned anything about the rapture. Below, we see Martha held this belief. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection as well, but the sadducees didn't. Jesus talks about the resurrection, but He doesn't even hint about a rapture. It wasn't taught until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected, and even then, Jesus wasn't the one who taught it.

John 11:23-26 - "Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (24)Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (25)Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (26)And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Acts 23:6 - "But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."

Acts 23:8 - "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both."

Acts 24:15 - "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

In my humble opinion, the rapture is only a part of the resurrection of the just, and as I've said before, each of us will go in his own order. So it appears we still have an unsolved mystery in regards to the rapture, just as God's word says it is. To me, it really isn't important when it is, but it is very important that we are ready when it happens, also just as God's word tells us to be ready. :laugh:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Also, I don't believe we will be counted with all of the tribes of the earth, especially when you consider the fact that everyone of these tribes are said to mourn when they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. And I would think it would be physically impossible to see Him coming in the clouds, when we are coming with Him in our glorified bodies as well, especially when we are being gathered from heaven, not earth as in (vs 31). What do ya think?

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Guest choobaca

Hi Rollin,

Finally I found a pretribber who can discuss the differences of views with a gentle spirit.

If you read 1 Thess 4 :13-18 and then continue to ch 5 without the chapter break, you will see first of all that ch 4 is a resuurection passage.....The Dead in Christ rise first, and they we which are alive and remain are caught up with them. The mode of travel is the rapture. it is a verb, and not a noun. The only way that the living can rise with the dead, is by their mortal bodiies being changed to immortal bodies as it says in 1 Co 15. The dead group, are the group in 1 Co 15 that put on incorruption for their bodies did see corruption in the grave. So as 1 have said Thess speaks of two groups and also does 1 Co 15 and they are the same two groups that go in the twinkling of an eye.

Now as you continue in ch 5, Paul now tells us that the Day of the Lord will not overtake believers as a thief, for we are looking for it and Him. They (the wicked)will be surprised for they sleep but we are awake and sober. Phil 3:20 and 21 tells us just what will happen to our vile or lowly bodies when He comes.....the same coming of 1 Thess 4, and 1 Co 15 and Mat 24. And it is called the D of the L. This day begins when Christ puts down all rule and authority and judges the nations as in Mat 25. It continues into the millenium when we rule with Him. And that happens after we are resurrected in the First one of Ch 20 of Revelation. The last day, is the rapture, resurrection, redemption, and all at the return. It is all sequential.

So when is the last day? The same one that Martha says Lazarus would be raised in. 1 John 3 1-2 also says we will be like Him when He appears. He is coming in a "moment of time", and we will be changed in that moment when the trumpet sounds.

I rushed thru this, for I have to leave for work. I hope this at least shows the postrib view of this time period.

One more text...

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Note here that the wicked are also judged at the last day. This is the judgement of Mat 25 imo. But the great white throne is not till 1000 yrs later when all the wicked dead will be judged and move from Hades (county jail) to Lake of fire (federal prison). Or Gehenna.

JMHO,

choobaca

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Finally I found a pretribber who can discuss the differences of views with a gentle spirit.

Hi choobaca,

Actually I'm not a pure pre-tribber. I don't believe that the entire church will be raptured as they do. I see many believers will still be here at the mid-point of the tribulation. I believe the Bridegroom will be coming for His bride, who is pure, not lukewarm. He'll be coming back for the five wise virgins, His true disciples who have denied self and are living sacrifices. They have already overcome the world, but many believers are still living in the flesh and chasing after their worldly desires. I believe there's more to being ready than just saying you believe (Luke 21:34-36 / Rev. 3:10-11)

Some are already pure, but some will become pure a little late and miss the wedding supper, they will give their heads, and then many of these will also fall away from the truth and take the mark. I wrote a thread about this called, "A MYSTERY : The Rapture and the Parable of the Ten Virgins."

If you're interested, here's the link :

http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.p...=11&t=2709&st=0

Back to what you were saying. It makes sense to me that those who do not rise to rule and reign with Christ 1000 yrs are condemned already. If you're not there for the "Day of the Lord," your soul will be in a heep of trouble! Nice chattin with ya choobaca!

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Guest choobaca

Hi Rollin,

Well suffice to say, I have heard it all, even the partial rapture theory. I say theory , for it can not be proven by scripture. I think all the warnings Jesus gave as to being ready, were for those that may be playing church, and have not actually settled their eternity with Him.

"He that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out"/ We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. He does not come for a piece of His Bride at a time. If one really loves Christ, and is waiting for His Coming, he or she will be watching, waiting, witnessing, worshipping and therefore "ready also".

When Paul says the "WE" that are alive and remain in 1 Thess 4, he leaves no room for the "WE" being divided into "some of you". The Ten virgin parable only has wise ones entering. Note what Jesus says to the foolish....."I never knew you" (no real personal relationship with Him).

( a side note here....How did the foolish ones even get to the door if the door was in the heavenlies via a pretrib rapture?)

Before I proceed, I would like to re-iterate, that I was pretrib for the first seven or eight years of my walk. I say this only so you understand that I gobled up everything that was spoken and written by all the pretrib gurus. There is nothing you have said or will say, that I have not heard before. Please don't take this as a proud remark, only a fact. Also I have in my 30 years in Christ heard testimony of many like myself, move from the pretrib camp to the postrib camp. But I do not recall the reverse. I am not saying it is not possible, only I have not heard of one.

There, with that out of the way......Let us deal with Mat 24.....You said that Jesus did not teach the rapture. I disagree. The gathering of Mat 24 is the same as the rapture of 1 Thess 4 and also the gathering of 2 Thess 2. That is all the rapture is. A means (miracle-defying gravity) of bringing all those dead in Christ and the living ones to the Lord in a particular point in the air and at a particular moment (grk= atmos of time) of time caled a "twinkling of an eye.

Now let us look at what Paul said....

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Note: the Word of the Lord hear is not some private revelation given to Paul, though he says elsewhere that he would have those also. He uses the preposition "WE", which means that he is in agreement with other Apostles on this word of the Lord.

So what Word or portion or portions of Jesus' words do you suppose Paul meant?

Let me suggest ......

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note here that there are really two groups that are gathered....."From the four winds" is a metaphor for the four points of the compass( hense, the whole earth) / "From one end of heaven to the other" is speaking of the dead in Christ whose spirits Jesus brings with Him when they are raised to incorruption from the grave. So the ones from the four winds are they that are "alive and remain". This I believe is one "Word of the Lord" that Paul speaks of.

Another is found in........

John 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (one resurrection of the just, and it is at the last day) (fisrt resurrection -Rev 20)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Note: the "dead in Christ" shall be made to live again. Same as Paul's group # 1.

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Note: those that are living shall never see physical death when He comes to gather them. Paul's # 2 group.

Brother, if you can see and receive this, a whole lot of other portions of text on eschatology will fall right into place.

Some times we sincerly believe something with all our heart, and we can't bear the thought that we may be wrong. But being sincere does not mean we are right. I am not saying I have the last word on these things, for we all still "see thru a glass darkly", but I am saying that postrib fits the scenario in more places than pretrib does.

Pretrib even has to say the the Day of Christis different than the Day of the Lord. Is this true? What if I quote this text, one that a pretribber would never quote, when they share.....

1 Cor 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Did you read it.....The day....What day? Of our Lord...Who is He? Jesus Christ/

All three terms are used in one verse. So to say that the day of Christ is the rapture, and that the day of the Lord is the Second Coming is imo foolishness.

A change in labels is not always a change in content.....Suppose someone wanted to play with your head.....They go to your cupboard and change the label from the peas to the corn and vise versa. When you opened the can that said corn, you find that it contains peas. The label was changed, but the content was the same.

I have alot more to share if you are interested, and if not I'll hold my peace. I am not trying to convert any, but only making a defense for what I see in the scriptures.

Someone once said....

"Opinions based on faulty presuppositions lead to wrong conclusions."

This is what I did as a pretibber. I believed because it tickled my ears...(I may never have to die). I believed, because it was the only view that was preached so much in the early seventies. (I had no contrasting view to see). I believed because "big" so called men of God were proclaiming it. But when I really studied the Bible itself and for myself, pretrib was found wanting.

And so I am what I am by the grace of God and will share with any who want to hear.

Blessings in your study of His Word,

choobaca

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Well suffice to say, I have heard it all, even the partial rapture theory. I say theory , for it can not be proven by scripture. I think all the warnings Jesus gave as to being ready, were for those that may be playing church, and have not actually settled their eternity with Him.

( a side note here....How did the foolish ones even get to the door if the door was in the heavenlies via a pretrib rapture?)

Please don't take this as a proud remark, only a fact. Also I have in my 30 years in Christ heard testimony of many like myself, move from the pretrib camp to the postrib camp. But I do not recall the reverse. I am not saying it is not possible, only I have not heard of one.

Pretrib even has to say the the Day of Christis different than the Day of the Lord. Is this true? What if I quote this text, one that a pretribber would never quote, when they share.....

1 Cor 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Did you read it.....The day....What day? Of our Lord...Who is He? Jesus Christ/

All three terms are used in one verse. So to say that the day of Christ is the rapture, and that the day of the Lord is the Second Coming is imo foolishness.

A change in labels is not always a change in content.....Suppose someone wanted to play with your head.....They go to your cupboard and change the label from the peas to the corn and vise versa. When you opened the can that said corn, you find that it contains peas. The label was changed, but the content was the same.

I have alot more to share if you are interested, and if not I'll hold my peace. I am not trying to convert any, but only making a defense for what I see in the scriptures.

Someone once said....

"Opinions based on faulty presuppositions lead to wrong conclusions."

This is what I did as a pretibber. I believed because it tickled my ears...(I may never have to die). I believed, because it was the only view that was preached so much in the early seventies. (I had no contrasting view to see). I believed because "big" so called men of God were proclaiming it. But when I really studied the Bible itself and for myself, pretrib was found wanting.

And so I am what I am by the grace of God and will share with any who want to hear.

Blessings in your study of His Word,

choobaca

Hi choobaca,

Everyones belief on the timing of the rapture is only a theory. None of these can be proven with scripture. It's just not that simple, as in reading what the scriptures say to follow the proper directions. Scriptures say that this is a profound mystery, and to suggest that any theory could be proven with scripture would be to ignore that truth.

Jesus was a profound mystery in the Old Testament. They could not just read the law and know everything they needed to know about their Messiah and when He was coming to them. If it were that simple, they would have easily recognized Him when He came. But as we all know, most of them were clueless even after He repeatedly told them who He was. Israel ultimately rejected Him, and only a small minority actually believed and received Him.

Now we are talking about the profound mystery of the New Testament, the rapture. As far as being ready goes, I believe the result will be similar with the church in the New Testament as it was with Israel in the Old Testament.

I'll agree that the (Day of Christ) is also the (Day of the Lord) and is also the (Millenium) and the (last day) and the Lord's (Sabbath Rest). No one switched the peas and corn, they are all the same in my opinion.

You appear to use "in the grave" as corruption, but I would say that it is the "flesh" that is corrupt and can not ever see heaven. Those in the grave need to be resurrected, but those alive only need to be changed or tranformed.

Also, there is an ex-post-tribber here, and I believe she posted here pretty recently, but that's not important, even though most post-tribbers try to use that as proof.

How do you explain these passages? :

Luke 21:34-36 - "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. (35)For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (36)Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Revelation 3:10-11 - "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (11)Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Isaiah 26:19-21 -

"(19)Your dead shall live;

Together with my dead body they shall arise.

Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;

For your dew is like the dew of herbs,

And the earth shall cast out the dead.

(20)Come, my people, enter your chambers,

And shut your doors behind you;

Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,

Until the indignation is past.

(21)For behold, the LORD comes out of His place

To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,

And will no more cover her slain."

Oh well, I guess we should have known that we would both interpret the scriptures differently, so we are pretty much wasting time here. But it was nice chattin with ya brother. I do respect your views, as none will be proven until it happens. I hope to see you there! :)

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