Multiple Wives

[MrsSealedEternal]

Thanks Nebula...I should of read the account again. Seems pretty clear, to me anyhow, that God had mercy and compassion on her for the fact that she was not loved as Rachel was.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bible doesn't give an all inclusive list of everyone who served in leadership, nor tell all about their personal lives. We know very little about the lives of all but a handful. That argument holds no weight. The fact is, there are 2 offices where the holder must be the husband of one wife and they are bishop and deacon period.

Back then, churches did not have any of the following modern leadership offices: Minister of youth, minister of education, minister of music, praise leaders, sunday school teachers, sunday school directors, choir directors, ushers, associate pastors, church secretaries, etc. Had there been such offices the same rules would have applied, no doubt. This is true because the leaders were to be examples in all areas of their lives, including their monogamy.

Bishop(also called "elder") and Deacon were the two primary leaders in a given congregation. There is absolultely no indication that anyone involved in polygamy were allowed in any leadershhip roles, of any kind.

[nebula]

NEBULA SAID:

Also with Jacob's polygamy, the implication in Scripture is that it was a punishment. Seriously! Jacob who won his birthright through deceit in turn was deceived, and as a result ended up with two wives rather than one. The other two wives came as a result of jealousy and bickering between the two sisters. Oh yeah, God's way.

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

This is only speculation. The Bible never says Jacob being deceived into marrying Leah was a punishment.

You sow what you reap, correct?

(So, the deceiver was deceived.)

My point is that God, being all knowing, knew how Jacob would obtain the birthright and blessing, knew he would have 2 wives and 2 concubines, and it was his plan all along that through these 4 women, he would Father the 12 heads of the future tribes of Israel. Can this be proven absolutely? No, but neither can it be disproven.

Are you saying then that the Lord's word to Rebecca that "the older would serve the younger" was meant to be fulfilled by her and Jacob deceiving Isaac then? For the way you are arguing this, one would have to draw the same conclusion.

But what if Rebecca and Jacob had trusted in the Lord to fulfill His word rather than to put matters into their own hands?

Or would you preach that it was the Lord's plan for them to sin to bring about His ends?

So with Moses and the rock. The Lord meant for Moses to speak to the rock rather than strike it. Yet Moses struck the rock. The Lord split the rock and issued water from the rock despite Moses' disobedience, yet it does not change that Moses never should have struck the rock.

But what would have happened had Moses did what the Lord told him to do and speak to the rock? What greater blessing would have come from this?

Unfortunately, we will never know.

The same with Jacob. What if he had been submissive to the Lord from the beginning. What greater blessing would he have received?

NEBULA SAID:

As for Abraham's polygamy, he was chosen by God while in a single union. Taking in Hagar was a sin that led to grief, and continues still to lead to grief. (Hint: who do Muslims claim to be the child of promise? Not Isaac. ) The other wife Abraham took came after Hagar (who had been a concubine, not a wife) was cast away and after Sarah died.

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

Nobody is speaking to the matter of Hagar. Abraham took concubines after the death of Sarah besides Hagar and had more children. He was never rebuked for doing so. That was the point.

Gen. 25: 1 - Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

This was Abraham's second wife after Sarah's death.

NEBULA SAID:

As for David, has anyone else read this in the Torah?

Deuteronomy 17

14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. . . .

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

It does say the king was not to multiply wives to himself, however that does not seem to indicate simply more than one, but a great number. David didn't get into trouble for having more than one wife. All his troubles came as the result of taking another man's wife and having the husband killed. That was a judgement from God.

So, you would say David did not multiply wives unto himself? How many concubines did he have despite wives?

And no, David did not directly get into trouble for multiplying his wives, but the troubles did spring out from this.

You really should read David's story with Amnon andAbsalom from the perspective of family psychiatry - it's quite eye-opening.

[nebula]

NEBULA SAID:

What example did David give Solomon? And what was Solomon's downfall? (Hint: wives)

Also, notice who the mother of Absalom was?

1 Chronicles 3:2 - The third, Absalom the son of Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur:

David took a foreign wife - something of which the Lord warned against the people of Israel doing (Exodus 23:32,33; 34:16 Deuteronomy 7:3,4; Joshua 23:12,13).

What was the legacy of David's polygamy? Look at what happened with Absalom. Look at what happened to Solomon.

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

The issue of foreign wives is another issue. That was forbidden and did lead to trouble, especially for Solomon.

And David was guilty of this. Absalom's mother, David's wife, was a foreigner.

NEBULA SAID:

Speaking of Solomon, do you know who his mother was? Bathsheba, the woman David had an adulterous affair with. If one wishes to argue that the Lord's blessing through polygamy are evidence that polygamy is blessed by the Lord, then can the same be said for adultery?

No! But what we see here is evidence that the Lord is merciful and turns around even our failures and sin for good. In the lives of these men who had multiple wives we see the same thing - God's mercy making good out of our messes. Polygamy is one of these (a big mess, that is).

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

It is true that God chose Solomon to be king after David and that Solomon was the son of Bathseheba, but the reason for this choice had nothing to do with the issue of adultery or polygamy. God chose the man that was best among David's sons to fill that position period. It was not an endorsement of polygamy nor a blessing for adultery. All situations are not the same.

But by your argument that the outcome was evidence of these polygamous marriages being blessed by God, the same would apply here, would it not?

(Note, I don't believe this, but your argument can very easily jump from one to the other.)

[angels4u]

Some people here just don't get it or can't see it the way it is:

Genesis 2:24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

God told man what He expect from them..but then men took themself multiple wives and cocubines, instead of leaving their parents to be one with their husband . (where does it say husbands?)

Is that maybe then when people started to do what they wanted for them self and ignored God? God allowed them to do what they wanted but in the end....

Is that maybe where all the sexual diseases started?

[nebula]

Nebula said earlier that Hagar was a concubine. This is not supported by scripture, as it plainly says she was his wife.

Hagar was a WIFE. not a concubine.

Genesis 16:3

And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

My appologies. I had alway heard of Hagar being a concubine, not a wife.

This does not eliminate the other point, though - the Lord called Abram long before he took Hagar, and even then it is clear in Scripture he should not have done that.

Abraham had OTHER concubines at the same time he was married to Keturah.

Genesis 25

1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

2And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

3And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. 6But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

I sure am glad I wasn't one of Abraham's concubines!

In fact, it is likely, though I can't prove it, Abraham had already married Keturah before Sarah died, . . . .

No, you cannot prove it. The wording given does not support this notion. I can understand your reasoning, though.

Oh my - those children's descendants were to become Israel's enemies later in time, didn't they?

[nebula]

You are right about the problems with jealousy that existed, but it is still evident God planned that Jacob would become Israel and that his 12 sons would be the head of the twelve tribes.

Was it God's plan, or the Lord using evil for good? As Matthitjah mentioned several posts ago - what we see here is the Lord extending grace to us lost, broken sinful beings and making something for His glory out of what we make messes of. Would you disagree with this?

Here is yet another thing I would add. God answered the prayer of these women in the story, though they were supposedly doing something God didn't approve of. Leah was actually part of the deception involving Jacob, yet God still blessed her with 6 sons.

Were not Leah and Rachel acting in obedience to their father with the deception? What if they had disobeyed him? Would that have been the righteous thing to do?

There is something wrong with the picture of God rewarding unrighteousness.

I would hardly consider all of that strife to be a reward.

Turning evil for good, though - absolutely. It is comforting to read through the Scriptures that the Lord takes our worst and makes something beautiful out of it.

I would hate to believe that it was the Lord's will to bring about all that strife that occured within Jacob's family.

[nebula]

Thanks Nebula...I should of read the account again. Seems pretty clear, to me anyhow, that God had mercy and compassion on her for the fact that she was not loved as Rachel was.

That is especially surprising since she knowingly became Jacob's wife by deception. This argument would mean God rewarded wrong doing because she wasn't loved.

Again, what if she and Rachel (who had to have been in on it too) had rebelled against their father. Would you have approved?

[angels4u]

he didn't condemn it. If it were wrong, why do that

I didn't say that ,God did allow it but it was not in His plan for mankind to have more then one women.

Men started to take more women...........God does not stop us from doing something against His will we either listen to the Holy Spirit or we go our own way. He gave us a free wil to choose what we want to do.

How happy do you think all those women were?

And how happy would the men have been they had all the worry and care for all those women, how can you concentrate on God if you have all those family issuess on your mind?

For the men here...how many women and children do you think you can handle and feel blessed, pretend you were Solomon.

[nebula]

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

It rains on the just and the unjust alike, correct? Also, what did Job do wrong to deserve the things that happened to him? The Bible said he was a righteous man.

It sounds to me like you are saying Jacob was without sin.

Yes, Jacob was considered a righteous man in the end, just like Abraham and David and Moses, etc - yet it is clear from Scripture all of these men wer not what we would call "perfect."

As for what Jacob did - he dishonored his father big time by lying to him about his identity. He was also a thief by stealing what was to be given to his brother.

These are the seeds that Jacob sewed.

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

These are all individual cases and the answer could be one way in one instance and another in another instance. I cannot prove God wanted Jacob to have 2 wives and 2 concubines, but it cannot be proven otherwise.

But you are claiming this was what God wanted.

Jacob didn't have the option to trust God with Rachel because he was already married to Leah.

I was speaking of trusting God with the birthright to begin with. Jacob had to run to Laban to flee from his brother for stealing his blessing. Was that God's ideal?

In reality, Leah was his wife and if polygamy was so wrong, deceived or not, he should have remained with Leah and had to forget about Rachel.

In many ways, it can be argued that this is what he should have done.

For that matter, after studying the accounts of Leah and Rachel in Scripture, I could see that Leah had much more godly character than Rachel. Or at least it can be seen that Rachel had a less than godly character. Stealing her father's idols and being deceptive when the search came, for instance. (I know, off topic, but something to consider in which course of action would have been the most beneficial.)

NEBULA SAID:

As for Abraham's polygamy, he was chosen by God while in a single union. Taking in Hagar was a sin that led to grief, and continues still to lead to grief. (Hint: who do Muslims claim to be the child of promise? Not Isaac. ) The other wife Abraham took came after Hagar (who had been a concubine, not a wife) was cast away and after Sarah died.

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

The Bible says he had children by concubines, not one concubine, meaning he had more than one at a time.

Since WSB was graciou enough to point out the Scripture that showed this, I appologized for the error.

This does not discount the other things. There is no indication that Abraham had his concubines when he was called by God to begin with.

BUTERO's RESPONSE:

All of David's troubles came as a direct result of his sin with another man's wife, and having the man killed. David was told it would happen by the prophet and it did. None of those events would have happened had he left this married woman alone.

I am not denying that. But it seems to me in your quest to prove polygamy, you are missing the bigger picture - what fruit came out of David's amassing wives?

Should David have married the daughter of a foreign king?