Multiple Wives

[Guest shiloh357]

The disagreement comes over a fine point over whether God ever ordained and blessed someone in polygamy.

No it is not. I have already acknowledged that God blessed people who were polygamists. The question is whether or not polygamy was blessed, and so far NO evidence has been brought forth where God has directly blessed, ordained, or honored THE ACT of polygamy.

It is really hard to carry on an intelligent debate with someone who cannot even frame the arguments correctly. You need to start responding to the posts we write and what we are actually saying, instead of responding to what you THINK we are saying.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh was claiming that David mearly took care of the wives of Saul's household, but was not intimate with them. He also claimed that David's only wives were those from Saul's household. That is not true as is shown by Whysoblind. Again, notice that God never once even offered a slight rebuke for David's behavior in taking these wives and concubines, but he continued to bless him, and David is refered to as a man after God's own heart. The only time God ever rebuked him was for his adultery with Bathsheba.

1. I did not not claim that David's only wives were from Saul's household. Please try to at least frame my arguments correctly. I said that the only wives David was intimate with appear to be the ones he took for himself

2. The Bible is very careful about recording the geneaologies of important people such as David. It is careful to give us all of David's offspring. Saul's wife and concubine are not included in the records of David's offspring. It would be very irregular for the Bible to omit Saul's wife and concubine and any children they might have had with David if he did indeed marry them and have children with them.

The truth here is that you really don't have a grasp on the arguments you are trying to refute. You mess up our position and then try to refute things I, in particular have not said. I would appreciate it if you would at least be responsible enough to read and understand what you are refuting instead of attributing things to me that I have never once said.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh would say they were blessed in spite of polygamy, and I would say it was God's plan they be in the relationships they were. This is a point that can be argued till the Lord returns, but not proven conclusively one way or the other, though Shiloh seems to think he can prove himself right. Since the debate began, to my knowledge everyone believes how they did before it started, no change. That is strange if Shiloh "proved" his case so strongly.

to those locked up in their pride no amount of "proof" will ever suffice.

It is in fact "provable." You cannot offer ONE shred of evidence that God intended for ANYONE to be a polygamist marriage. What you do, is you read God's "blessing" into the circumstances. You have already admitted that God's marriage plan is superior to polygamy. Why would God bless an act which is inferior, and that which He did not ordain? The fact that God can bring good out of a less than desirable arrangement is not to be understood as God's blessing of the arrangement itself. God blesses us, not because we are good, but because He is good. God's blessings are ALWAYS in spite of what we do. We do not deserve God's blessings, ever. We are blessed in spite of the fact that we deserve God's contempt. So it should not be surprising to a thinking person, that God could bless someone caught up in polygamy in spite of the fact that polygamy is not His best.

It is provable to those who are willing to see it.

[redeemed098]

God actually made reference to there being no one more righteous in all the land than Job.......God called him righteous..How many wives did Job have..??

Can you show me any place in scripture where God calls Jacob, or Isaac or Abraham or David righteous..?? Im serious..I am curious to know whether God ever called them righteous. He definitely DID call Job righteous and Job only had ONE wife.

Regards,

Ben.

Also Noah who had only one wife was called righteous. Genesis 6:9 NIV

6:9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

Yes....!

As far as I am able to see in scripture there seems to be only three whom God declares to be righteous......God himself declares them as Righteous.

Ezekiel Chapter 14. It is said in the one chapter Four times...Please listen...

"Even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it (The land about to be judged by God for its wickedness) they could save only themselves by their "Righteousness" declares the Sovereign Lord."

again.....'' as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could NOT save their own sons or daughters. They ALONE would be saved, but the land would become desolate."

again...." as surely as I live declares the sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons and daughters. They alone would be saved.."

and one more time.."as surely as I live declares the sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by THEIR righteousness."

Do you see.......????? four times in the one chapter only three men have even been declared to be righteous by the Sovereign Lord himself...

Noah as evidenced by the flood.

Job as evidenced by the trials and testing of his faith by satan, only after God had asked satan..."Have you considered my servant Job..?"

and finally Daniel as evidenced by the closing of the Lions mouths in the lions den.

Though men are saved Butero, they are NOT righteous....But these three men WERE. None of them are recorded as having more than one wife.

If the Christians who were thrown to the lions had been righteous, the mouths of the lions would have been closed again..This is not a question of whether our own righteousness can save us...Clearly it cannot..That is why Jesus came in the first place. "God made him who knew NO sin to be sin for US, so that in HIM we would become the righteousness of God."

Noah, Job and Daniel were clearly unwavering in their committment to Gods Laws in every way. So much so that even the greatest test which was that of Job served only to encourage believers that even if God removes the hedge of protection and allows satan to try to destroy us, this will only bring us CLOSER to God and MORE dependent on him...Not LESS....

God would NEVER ask satan......"Have you considered my servant Job...???" If he didnt already have things in hand.

I digress....Sorry...!! If this is the measure of righteousness according to the Sovereign Lord himself, then I think you may need to rethink you viewpoint on polygamy......I know you are not for or against it, and I know that you probably dont have any hidden agenda, I simply think that the truth is right there in scripture and you havent seen it...Yet..! God is true to his word....God did not MAKE Noah righteous, but he saved him because he WAS righteous. Though there were no Laws given yet, clearly Noah lived a life that was pleasing to the Lord. As did Job, and Daniel.

Regards,

Ben.

[Guest shiloh357]

If the Christians who were thrown to the lions had been righteous, the mouths of the lions would have been closed again..

Not to hijack the thread, but this is not true. Just because someone is righteous, it does not follow that they will not be harmed by the wicked.

One cannot be a Christian and NOT be righteous. Righteousness is imputed to us by faith in Christ and his finished work upon the cross.

[angels4u]

Shiloh would say they were blessed in spite of polygamy, and I would say it was God's plan they be in the relationships they were

Amen and I'm trying to say that more that ones also, God can use ALL circumstances to make something good out of it, He sometimes even uses unbelievers for His purpuse, but that doesn't mean the unbeliever is blessed.

[redeemed098]

If the Christians who were thrown to the lions had been righteous, the mouths of the lions would have been closed again..

Not to hijack the thread, but this is not true. Just because someone is righteous, it does not follow that they will not be harmed by the wicked.

One cannot be a Christian and NOT be righteous. Righteousness is imputed to us by faith in Christ and his finished work upon the cross.

True...Job was clearly harmed....I retract what I said..I was wrong..Not only that, but Jesus himself said to Peter..."Peter, satan has asked to sift you."

A Job experience will expose who is walking by faith...Because faith cannot be manufactured...It is Christ himself who sustains the life of a Christian. Without Christ, it would be completely, totally and utterly impossible to live the life of Christian...

Regards,

Ben.

[MrsSealedEternal]

This doesn't sound good to me:

Isa 3:1 For behold, the Lord GOD of hosts is going to remove from Jerusalem and Judah Both supply and support, the whole supply of bread And the whole supply of water;

Isa 3:2 The mighty man and the warrior, The judge and the prophet, The diviner and the elder,

Isa 3:3 The captain of fifty and the honorable man, The counselor and the expert artisan, And the skillful enchanter.

Isa 3:4 And I will make mere lads their princes, And capricious children will rule over them,

Isa 3:5 And the people will be oppressed, Each one by another, and each one by his neighbor; The youth will storm against the elder And the inferior against the honorable.

Isa 3:6 When a man lays hold of his brother in his father's house, saying, "You have a cloak, you shall be our ruler, And these ruins will be under your charge,"

Isa 3:7 He will protest on that day, saying, "I will not be your healer, For in my house there is neither bread nor cloak; You should not appoint me ruler of the people."

Isa 3:8 For Jerusalem has stumbled and Judah has fallen, Because their speech and their actions are against the LORD, To rebel against His glorious presence.

Isa 3:9 The expression of their faces bears witness against them, And they display their sin like Sodom; They do not even conceal it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves.

Isa 3:10 Say to the righteous that it will go well with them, For they will eat the fruit of their actions.

Isa 3:11 Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him.

Isa 3:12 O My people! Their oppressors are children, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray And confuse the direction of your paths.

Isa 3:13 The LORD arises to contend, And stands to judge the people.

Isa 3:14 The LORD enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people, "It is you who have devoured the vineyard; The plunder of the poor is in your houses.

Isa 3:15 "What do you mean by crushing My people And grinding the face of the poor?" Declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

Isa 3:16 Moreover, the LORD said, "Because the daughters of Zion are proud And walk with heads held high and seductive eyes, And go along with mincing steps And tinkle the bangles on their feet,

Isa 3:17 Therefore the Lord will afflict the scalp of the daughters of Zion with scabs, And the LORD will make their foreheads bare."

Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of their anklets, headbands, crescent ornaments,

Isa 3:19 dangling earrings, bracelets, veils,

Isa 3:20 headdresses, ankle chains, sashes, perfume boxes, amulets,

Isa 3:21 finger rings, nose rings,

Isa 3:22 festal robes, outer tunics, cloaks, money purses,

Isa 3:23 hand mirrors, undergarments, turbans and veils.

Isa 3:24 Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction; Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp; Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.

Isa 3:25 Your men will fall by the sword And your mighty ones in battle.

Isa 3:26 And her gates will lament and mourn, And deserted she will sit on the ground.

Isa 4:1 For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!"

[firehill]

To Shiloh and Firehill. I am saying that God planned for Jacob to have 2 wives and 2 concubines. I do not believe God blessed him in spite of polygamy but planned it would be the case. That is my position. I understand full well you believe God only blessed him in spite of it. In addition, you have not proven that is not the case nor can you. You have proven it to be so in your own mind, but have not made a single convert. I have proven you wrong in my own mind, but big deal. It is not what I think I have accomplished, but the results that show my feelings correct or incorrect. Those who hold to your beliefs continue to, and those who don't, still don't. I also believe Samuel came about directly because of the polygamous relationship between Elkanah and his two wives. You also cannot prove me wrong in that. It is merely a belief, and I have read the Bible enough times through to know there is nothing in it that will prove me wrong on either count.

So you are saying that the reason why Jacob had more than one wife was because He made it so even though He ordained marriage of one man one woman?

[Guest shiloh357]

To Shiloh and Firehill. I am saying that God planned for Jacob to have 2 wives and 2 concubines. I do not believe God blessed him in spite of polygamy but planned it would be the case. That is my position.

Yes, I realize that. The problem is that you cannot provide a Scriptural reason why God would ordain marriage to be between one man and one woman, create monogamous marriage to be a picture of the love Christ has for the Church, and then turn around and cause Jacob to violate the picture.

When Moses screwed up the picture God was trying to create by striking the rock for a second time, in the wilderness, God punished Him. Why would God violate His own types and shadows??

Your position is based upon emotion not biblical evidence. When you can come up with a reason why God would work against his own purponses, then you might have something.

I also believe Samuel came about directly because of the polygamous relationship between Elkanah and his two wives. You also cannot prove me wrong in that.

The problem is that you are trying to make value judgements on issues where the Bible does not. Samuel was born into a polygamous family. So what??? Why does that mean that God blessed Elhanah's situation? God was responding to Hannah's faith. God was not up there saying, "You know what, I am going to cause Hannah to bear a prophet so that everyone will see that I think Polygamy is OK." We can see the difference between God ordaining something, and God bringing good out of a less than desirable situation.