Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Nero's Fiddle]

Please don't attack, guys, I come in peace!

I just wanted to ask (in a very peaceful, open manner): How do post-tribbers deal with the idea that a post-trib rapture leaves neither a Christian nor an unbeliever in a living natural body entering the Millenium?

Who will be having children? If there are no children being born, then who are those who are mentioned as being able to die in Revelation? And, surely you don't propose that Christians in their glorified bodies, having spent a thousand years with the one who saved them while they yet dwellt in today's dark world, are those who make rebellion against the Lord and are cast into the Lake of Fire!

Again, I'm not attacking anyone. I'd just like a calm and clear explanation from someone who holds the view, or knows it well enough to explain.

(In case you hadn't guessed, I am not a post-tribber. I am a pre-tribulationist who thinks apologetics is a good thing for a Christian to engage in, when necessary.)

In His love,

and I know He's coming quickly,

NF

Edited August 12, 2004 by Nero's Fiddle

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Neros Fiddle,

I just wanted to ask (in a very peaceful, open manner): How do post-tribbers deal with the idea that a post-trib rapture leaves neither a Christian nor an unbeliever in a living natural body entering the Millenium?

Who will be having children? If there are no children being born, then who are those who are mentioned as being able to die in Revelation? And, surely you don't propose that Christians in their glorified bodies, having spent a thousand years with the one who saved them while they yet dwellt in today's dark world, are those who make rebellion against the Lord and are cast into the Lake of Fire!

An honest and acceptable question.

I don't know how familiar you are with the scriptures, but assuming you have read the Bible through a few times, then you will recognize that whenever God has poured out His "wrath", He has never destroyed EVERYONE. For His purposes whatever that may be there has always remained a "remnant" of both good and evil or believers and unbelievers. So the "wrath" poured out upon Babylon in the book of Revelation, there will remain people from all nations who escape it, or more appropriately go through it, even though they remain unbelievers.

We see Satan bound for 1,000 years. We do not see him bound right now, but only wounded. He is crippled in his fight against believers, but he remains "the Prince and Power of the Air, and goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. So we CANNOT be in that 1,000 years right now, because during it, if you will look in the OT, particularly in Zecharia, during the reign of Christ on this earth the nations will pay homage to Him and to His saints.

Then again we see evidence that at the end of that 1,000 years when Satan is loosed one more time, the "nations will once again wage war against Christ and His saints". You will find this in the last part of Revelation.

So your question is really moot, and not evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[JesusisGod2]

Please don't attack, guys, I come in peace!

I just wanted to ask (in a very peaceful, open manner): How do post-tribbers deal with the idea that a post-trib rapture leaves neither a Christian nor an unbeliever in a living natural body entering the Millenium?

Who will be having children? If there are no children being born, then who are those who are mentioned as being able to die in Revelation? And, surely you don't propose that Christians in their glorified bodies, having spent a thousand years with the one who saved them while they yet dwellt in today's dark world, are those who make rebellion against the Lord and are cast into the Lake of Fire!

Again, I'm not attacking anyone. I'd just like a calm and clear explanation from someone who holds the view, or knows it well enough to explain.

(In case you hadn't guessed, I am not a post-tribber. I am a pre-tribulationist who thinks apologetics is a good thing for a Christian to engage in, when necessary.)

In His love,

and I know He's coming quickly,

NF

Hi Nero's fiddle,

No attack from me, actually this is a very good question and a good answer from Dad-E.

The only ones who enter into the Millinium in a glorified body are those who are of Christ and of course christ Himself.

All others will be those who have been spared when God pours out His wrath and enter into the period we called the millinium period.

I would like to add further comment, but I need to get ready for work. But I just wanted to reply and add along with Dad-E that it is a very good question.

In Jesus

Kevin

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Nero,

I have a litlle more time today and I will try and answer some of your questions according to my understanding of the scriptures.

I just wanted to ask (in a very peaceful, open manner): How do post-tribbers deal with the idea that a post-trib rapture leaves neither a Christian nor an unbeliever in a living natural body entering the Millenium?

When the rapture occurs, it is the believers in Christ who are taken and not those who have rejected Christ. I believe in what many refer to as post tribulation, pre wrath rapture.

Many think or I have seen written, that the rapture and the second coming are the same event and I just dont see this as true. And perhaps because some have explained it this way to you, could be the reason you ask the question this particular way.

Lets look at Revelation 18

  Revelation 18

20  " Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

God here pronounces judgement on the unGodly on our behalf. Now this happens almost at the end of the seven years of tribulation and the church is still here.

21  Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and  will not be found any longer.

22  "And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23  and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

Notice who will not be here at this point when God pronounces His judgement and begins to pour His wrath in judgement. I believe it is at this point when the rapture happens there will not be a lamp of light (the prophets, Apostles, etc ) nor the voice of the bridegroom and bride (Christ and the church)

24  "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

Notice that there are people left though, but nothing that is good. And also notice that it is the blood of the saints and prophets, no mention of the saints or prophets being found, only their blood.

Who will be having children? If there are no children being born, then who are those who are mentioned as being able to die in Revelation?

As mentioned these are the ones who enter into the millinium, there numbers will be great as we see in Rev 20:8 their numbers are like the sand of the seashore.

During the millinium period, mankind will still sin only they will no longer be able to blame it on satan, he will be bound for 1,000 years. This will show mankind that they are inherently evil and that we are responsible for our sins. Also sin will be judged on the spot, grace is gone, God will rule in righteousness

This wont apply to the saints who will rule with Christ, those who have been born again, for we will be in our glorified bodies and no longer in the body of this sinful flesh, we will be like Him, free of sinful lust and desires, our only desire will be for Him.

And, surely you don't propose that Christians in their glorified bodies, having spent a thousand years with the one who saved them while they yet dwellt in today's dark world, are those who make rebellion against the Lord and are cast into the Lake of Fire!

I dont propose that, thats for sure, has someone said that this the case? or is this just a general question?

As mentioned the ones who will be in the rebellion are those who have rejected Christ during this period we know as the period of Grace. If someone is teaching this view, they should do a deeper study.

Once Christ returns, its too late, you will face the Great White Throne Judgement and payment will be required for the sins committed aginst God. If your name is not found written in the Book of Life, they are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second resurrection wher all who ever lived will be judged.

Save those who are in Christ for we have been judged already and have accepted the penalty of Christ death as payment. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, whose sin has been covered, Blessed are those whose sin the Lord will not take into account.

This takes place after the millinial period. Rev 20:11-15

Again, I'm not attacking anyone. I'd just like a calm and clear explanation from someone who holds the view, or knows it well enough to explain.

I think you asked your question in sincerity and in peace and appreciate it. There are some who attack this position as are those who attack the pre-trib position.

Now I dont know if I know it well enough to explain it all nor do I try, I do however try to give what I believe the scriptures are saying to me and my understanding of them.

(In case you hadn't guessed, I am not a post-tribber. I am a pre-tribulationist who thinks apologetics is a good thing for a Christian to engage in, when necessary.)

I have no problem with the views of the pre-tribbers, as a matter of fact I hope they are right, I will be ecstatic while in the air to meet the Lord, to say to my pre-trib believing brothers and sisters, you were right, praise God you were right That would be the greatest time ever that I admitted I was wrong, I mean who wants to be faced with evil times to come.

But from what I see in the scriptures we are going to be here. This is a time when an unbelieving world more that ever will need to hear of the gospel of Christ. For now not only is the time short, but the days can more or less be counted.

The tribulation is not the wrath of God, (We are experiencing tribulations all the time everyday, however this is not the time of great tribulation yet, but it is coming.) but a warning to mankind that He is about to pour out His wrath and judgement is come upon the world.

The tribulation period is a time for satan to loose his wrath with fewer constraints than God has on him at this time, particularly against the saints of God, for he knows that his time is short and he can start counting the days.

This is a desperate time and many will come to Christ, but how will they know unless they hear, and how will they hear unless it is preached, and how will they preach unless they are sent and how will they be sent if we are all in heaven?

Not everyone will recieve this mark, many will refuse and will be put to death because of their choice for Christ. But if there is no one to preach Chrsit, how will they know what is happening.

Now many of us will meet Christ during this tribulation, but not because of the rapture, but because as a testimony against the world we will be put to death. This is a glorious honor before God and a witness against the evil of the world.

Well I dont want to write a book and welcome your thoughts. I too used to believe in pretribulation rapture, but I just cant justify it anymore from what I read in the scriptures. Perhaps thers is something I am missing and would be over joyed with correction that comes from Gods word.

We are about to face some scarey times and I would like nothing better than to be taken before it happens. I look forward to your response.

In Jesus

kevin

[Trinity]

thank you... your nice thank you for explaining your view with out tashing Pretribers... lol

[other one]

Hi Nero,

I have a litlle more time today and I will try and answer some of your questions according to my understanding of the scriptures.

I just wanted to ask (in a very peaceful, open manner): How do post-tribbers deal with the idea that a post-trib rapture leaves neither a Christian nor an unbeliever in a living natural body entering the Millenium?

When the rapture occurs, it is the believers in Christ who are taken and not those who have rejected Christ. I believe in what many refer to as post tribulation, pre wrath rapture.

Many think or I have seen written, that the rapture and the second coming are the same event and I just dont see this as true. And perhaps because some have explained it this way to you, could be the reason you ask the question this particular way.

Lets look at Revelation 18

[Trinity]

Please Read it will not take long, i have always read the post tribers thing please take time to read mine! lol

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.

The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.

This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.

In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah

[Nero's Fiddle]

Dad E and Jesus is God, thanks very much!

Your responses are insightful, and I agree with much of what each of you said.

(I did not mean to propose this as an evidence for the pre-trib doctrine. I merely wanted the "Second Coming = Rapture" explanation [sorry for not defining what I meant by "post-trib". ])

Trinity, great post!

Most of the proofs you have posted have been "debunked" by adherents of other viewpoints... But then again, we have "debunked" most of theirs as well.

May God grant each of us the wisdom and discernment to rightly divide between His Word and the reasonings of men. :il:

In Him,

and I know He's coming quickly (one way or another!),

NF

Edited August 15, 2004 by Nero's Fiddle

[JesusisGod2]

Hi trinity,

First of all great post i enjoyed reading your views. I would also like to respond to a few points you have made. I as well see the rapture as a different event than the second coming, in the second coming of Christ the church is returnig with Him as you have mentioned.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)

The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

The marriage supper it appears happens right before and continues during the point when God pours out His wrath upon the world system Babylon. We see a picture of this in Revelation 19:20-24 it calls for the heavens and the saints and the prophets and apostles to rejoyce for God has pronounced judgement for us against her.

Up until this point there was still time for repentance and the church and the prophets etc are still here at this point before Gods judgement is pronounced.

Now look in Revelation 19:1

1

[ServingHim]

Hello ServingHim,

HOW do those living on earth, procreated new people come to know Christ and accept Him as their savior? Do they follow the Bible as well? At will "Christ Come Again" for them, as the bible says, or will there be a new bible? Do they also get baptized, and does the Holy Spirit live in them AS WELL AS CHRIST living on earth in whatever state He will come again in?

This is a very good question and I will answer from my understanding of the Millinial reign of Christ.

There will again be an established sacrifice for those who have not been born of the Spirit, Born again, who werent included in the first ressurection. There are many scriptures that point to the reestablishment of sacrifice and the reason for it is the period we now enjoy called the period of grace will be over.

Those who have accepted the Lord as their Savior will reign with Christ during the millinial period. These are those who accepted the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin. We will no longer have a body made up of sinful flesh, but the scriptures say that we will be like Him, Praise the Lord.

so will those people live also for 1000 years?