Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Marilyn C]

32 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

 

Romans 9 says it is 'Not as though the promises have failed" in reference to the fact that Israel had fallen in true Romans 11 fashion - but that those promises applied to the spiritual Jews of Romans 2 so that we see in Rev 21 that each of the gates of the New Jerusalem - the Holy city, the City of God - has the name of one of the tribes of Israel on it. We all will enter into one of those gates.

No texts say that the saved/elect Jews will not be raptured and taken to heaven at the rapture and 2nd coming of Matt 24 just like all the other saints, all the "elect" of God

Hi Bob,

The spiritual Jews of Romans 2 are just that, from Israel. God is comparing the Gentiles and the Jews as to  - no none are righteous. Romans 1 & 2 are like a court case with the two groups - Jews and Gentiles being shown to be guilty. The Jews thought because they had Abraham as their Father that they were righteous, however God is showing that it is a matter of the heart, even for them.

Romans 9 shows that it is children of the promise - and what is the promise? Christ is and we see that in Romans 11 that the two groups are again grafted into Him and NOT each other. They are under Christ the Holy root who nourishes both for His different purposes for them.

And we are NOT destined for the New Jerusalem. We are not promised that. It is the Old Testament saints who believed God for that city. 

`...for he waited for the city which had foundations, whose builder and maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10)

We, the Body of Christ, on the other hand have a different inheritance.

`God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

We have been promised to sit with the Lord on His throne in the third heaven, far above all. Those in the city come down out of heaven and rule from there over the earth, whereas we rule over the universe. The two great rulerships connect under Christ and bring His righteous government in every realm.

Marilyn.

[BobRyan]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Bob,

So how is God going to put His law in their minds and write it on their heart,` (Jer. 31: 33) of course only through Christ.

 

It is through Christ that we have the Gospel and the Gospel as Jesus points out in John 3 brings with it the Holy Spirit causing the new birth and enabling the saints to live Christian lives as Paul reminds us in  Romans 8. Still we can't just make stuff up because it "sounds nice" we have to stick with what the Bible actually says - and if there at those who want to add their own touch to it - fine but they need to be reminded that this is 'their word' and not the Bible... no matter how 'nice' it may sound. So they could be right or wrong - but one thing is for certain - they are not scripture.

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

God`s word clearly tells us that Israel will rule over the nations of the earth. (Isa. 66: 18 - 21,  Zech. 14: 16 - 21)

The saints rule the earth with a "rod of iron" as we see in Revelation 2.

²⁵ But hold fast what you have till I come. ²⁶ And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

²⁷ ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

============================================= So then that is how the OT promises get fulfilled.

Romans 9

my kinsmen according to the flesh, ⁴ who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, ⁵ whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

⁶ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; ⁷ nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” ⁸ That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Give me the Bible AND "the words IN the Bible"

No nations being ruled by Israel in that text -- or in this life as we can see.

[BobRyan]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Bob,

The spiritual Jews of Romans 2 are just that, from Israel. God is comparing the Gentiles and the Jews as to  - no none are righteous. Romans 1 & 2 are like a court case with the two groups - Jews and Gentiles being shown to be guilty.

 

Both Romans 1 and Romans 2 - give examples of success and of failure. Romans 2 is specific showing that both success and failure are to be found among the Jews and among the Gentiles. Romans 2:11 "God is NOT partial" to one group or the other.

Quote

The Jews thought because they had Abraham as their Father that they were righteous, however God is showing that it is a matter of the heart, even for them.

Romans 9 shows that it is children of the promise - and what is the promise? Christ is and we see that in Romans 11 that the two groups are again grafted into Him and NOT each other.

Hi Marilyn

True - in Christ they are one. In Christ and Christ alone we have "the elect". He comes to get "His elect" -- the ONE group that He has made. And we see it in Matthew 24 -there is ONE coming of Christ in the future and at the ONE coming Christ described in Matt 24 - He gets his "elect".

Quote

They are under Christ the Holy root who nourishes both for His different purposes for them.

And we are NOT destined for the New Jerusalem. We are not promised that. It is the Old Testament saints who believed God for that city. 

Until you read Hebrews 12

¹⁸ For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, ¹⁹ and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. ²⁰ For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” ²¹ And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.” ²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ²⁴ and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Give me the Bible "AND" the words IN the Bible.

Quote

`...for he waited for the city which had foundations, whose builder and maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10)

We, the Body of Christ, on the other hand have a different inheritance.

`God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

 

That text merely says that they died and are not in heaven yet - and that we too will be with them one day at the 2nd coming. - in heaven... one group.

 

In the OT Israel was promised some property in Palestine. Now it is pretty much a dessert and Israel is nothing like the nation it was under Solomon. We now wait for the 2nd coming when all of God's elect - including the saints who happen to be physical Jews will be taken to heaven - to the Hebrews 12 and Rev 21 "New Jerusalem".

In Rev 21 we get a  New Earth - AND the New Jerusalem - after the 1000 years. That is all the saints. Not some of them.. all of them.

Rev 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. ² And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them

 

I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. ⁷ He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. ⁸ But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

⁹ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ¹¹ having the glory of God.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

It is through Christ that we have the Gospel and the Gospel as Jesus points out in John 3 brings with it the Holy Spirit causing the new birth and enabling the saints to live Christian lives as Paul reminds us in  Romans 8. Still we can't just make stuff up because it "sounds nice" we have to stick with what the Bible actually says - and if there at those who want to add their own touch to it - fine but they need to be reminded that this is 'their word' and not the Bible... no matter how 'nice' it may sound. So they could be right or wrong - but one thing is for certain - they are not scripture.

 

 

Hi Bob,

Glad we agree that it is all through Christ.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

The saints rule the earth with a "rod of iron" as we see in Revelation 2.

²⁵ But hold fast what you have till I come. ²⁶ And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

²⁷ ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

 

Hi again Bob,

That as we agree has to do with the Body of Christ ruling over the nations from Christ`s seat of power & authority in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) God`s word also says that Israel will rule over the nations on the earth as per scriptures I gave. Did you read them? Micah 4 also tell us of Israel ruling over the nations.

To have a conversation we both need to read what each other is saying, and the scriptures too.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

Romans 9

my kinsmen according to the flesh, ⁴ who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, ⁵ whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

⁶ But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; ⁷ nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” ⁸ That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Give me the Bible AND "the words IN the Bible"

No nations being ruled by Israel in that text -- or in this life as we can see.

Hi Bob,

It probably would be more gracious to say `please can you give...` instead of `Give me....`

The rulership of Israel over the nations will be in the millennium. They are an earthly nation and God has appointed them to rule over the nations. They rebelled against God and are being chastised. However when the Lord comes in power & great glory He will go to the leaders of Israel and reveal Himself to them. They will have their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit & receive their Messiah. (Zech. 12: 7 - 10) The Lord will then appoint a king named David and priests to rule, teach & judge in Israel over the nations.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

Hi Marilyn

True - in Christ they are one. In Christ and Christ alone we have "the elect". He comes to get "His elect" -- the ONE group that He has made. And we see it in Matthew 24 -there is ONE coming of Christ in the future and at the ONE coming Christ described in Matt 24 - He gets his "elect".

Until you read Hebrews 12

¹⁸ For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, ¹⁹ and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. ²⁰ For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” ²¹ And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.” ²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ²⁴ and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Give me the Bible "AND" the words IN the Bible.

That text merely says that they died and are not in heaven yet - and that we too will be with them one day at the 2nd coming. - in heaven... one group.

 

Hi Bob,

Actually they, the OT saints are in heaven as God`s word says -

`...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,` (Heb. 12: 23)

There we see the spirits of the righteous made perfect. They are the OT saints. Two different groups there, bro.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

In the OT Israel was promised some property in Palestine. Now it is pretty much a dessert and Israel is nothing like the nation it was under Solomon. We now wait for the 2nd coming when all of God's elect - including the saints who happen to be physical Jews will be taken to heaven - to the Hebrews 12 and Rev 21 "New Jerusalem".

In Rev 21 we get a  New Earth - AND the New Jerusalem - after the 1000 years. That is all the saints. Not some of them.. all of them.

Rev 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. ² And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them

 

I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. ⁷ He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. ⁸ But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

⁹ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ¹¹ having the glory of God.

 

 

Hi Bob,

I really don`t think you have seen Israel over the past 50 years, it is very productive. And yes the Tabernacle of God will be among men. That is the New Jerusalem will be where God`s glory rests and shines out over the nations on the earth. A truly blessed time.

Marilyn.

[BobRyan]

On 6/19/2017 at 3:01 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Bob,

I really don`t think you have seen Israel over the past 50 years

Granted. But I have read my Bible -

You are free of course - to speculate what might happen in the future --

 

But we have the Bible on this point - which is far more reliable than that.

 

 

Both Romans 1 and Romans 2 - give examples of success and of failure. Romans 2 is specific showing that both success and failure are to be found among the Jews and among the Gentiles. Romans 2:11 "God is NOT partial" to one group or the other.

Quote

The Jews thought because they had Abraham as their Father that they were righteous, however God is showing that it is a matter of the heart, even for them.

Romans 9 shows that it is children of the promise - and what is the promise? Christ is and we see that in Romans 11 that the two groups are again grafted into Him and NOT each other.

Hi Marilyn

True - in Christ they are one. In Christ and Christ alone we have "the elect". He comes to get "His elect" -- the ONE group that He has made. And we see it in Matthew 24 -there is ONE coming of Christ in the future and at the ONE coming Christ described in Matt 24 - He gets his "elect".

Quote

They are under Christ the Holy root who nourishes both for His different purposes for them.

And we are NOT destined for the New Jerusalem. We are not promised that. It is the Old Testament saints who believed God for that city. 

Until you read Hebrews 12

¹⁸ For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, ¹⁹ and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. ²⁰ For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” ²¹ And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.” ²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ²⁴ and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Give me the Bible "AND" the words IN the Bible.

Quote

`...for he waited for the city which had foundations, whose builder and maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10)

We, the Body of Christ, on the other hand have a different inheritance.

`God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

 

That text merely says that they died and are not in heaven yet - and that we too will be with them one day at the 2nd coming. - in heaven... one group.

In the OT Israel was promised some property in Palestine. Now it is pretty much a dessert and Israel is nothing like the nation it was under Solomon. We now wait for the 2nd coming when all of God's elect - including the saints who happen to be physical Jews will be taken to heaven - to the Hebrews 12 and Rev 21 "New Jerusalem".

In Rev 21 we get a  New Earth - AND the New Jerusalem - after the 1000 years. That is all the saints. Not some of them.. all of them.

Rev 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. ² And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them

I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. ⁷ He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. ⁸ But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

⁹ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ¹¹ having the glory of God.

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

21 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Hi Marilyn

True - in Christ they are one. In Christ and Christ alone we have "the elect". He comes to get "His elect" -- the ONE group that He has made. And we see it in Matthew 24 -there is ONE coming of Christ in the future and at the ONE coming Christ described in Matt 24 - He gets his "elect".

Until you read Hebrews 12

¹⁸ For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, ¹⁹ and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. ²⁰ For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” ²¹ And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.” ²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ²⁴ and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Give me the Bible "AND" the words IN the Bible.

That text merely says that they died and are not in heaven yet - and that we too will be with them one day at the 2nd coming. - in heaven... one group.

 

Hi BobRyan,

Thank you for that great scripture in Heb. 12: 22 & 23. Note the two groups.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, <sup>23</sup> to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect..`

So here we see the Body of Christ and also the OT saints, the spirits of the righteous. The two groups have different positions of serving in God`s great kingdom, and their rulerships will be under Christ, in harmony, in unity, BUT NOT in the same spot.

`God having provided something better, (great dominion) for us, (the Body of Christ) that they (OT saints) should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

 

Marilyn.