Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

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I can't make you believe what you do. 

That's good news.

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 Our beliefs should be based on what the scripture says. 

That's also good news. If your beliefs are based on what the scripture says, why are the 24 elders before the throne which are speaking for a multitude that has been gathered out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

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 I would ask you to read the parable of the fig tree in the synoptic gospels in a side by side fashion,  using 3 bibles if necessary.   The key point is that all these things written in the discourse will take place before the kingdom of God comes. 

I've read the parable of the fig tree many times. The key point is that the fig tree has more than one harvest. Originally, God was going to take the Jew to heaven before the Gentile. Because Israel chose to server other Gods, the Church will be caught up first in the pretribulation rapture. The twelve tribes will be caught up after the tribulation, before the wrath of God.

Hosea 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

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 I will leave it up to you to let the scriptures speak for themselves. 

Thanks brother. I'm always in favor of letting the scriptures say what they say. I believe that the salvation of the Gentile will provoke the Jew to jealously. They will turn to God because they will become jealous when they realize the Church has been become the first harvest of the fig tree.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

 

[Uriah]

On 5/6/2019 at 11:36 AM, Uriah said:

Hi PuP

Man, I like this post. I have also considered the 7 thunders. I know the thunders are sealed up but I have thought along the same lines as you on this.

Pup,

        I have been going over some of the latest posts in this thread. I guess I glossed over rather quickly your last post I read and concentrated pretty much on the 7 thunders part.However if you are saying that (in the previous sentences) that there is some (enlarged) period of time between the 7th trumpet and the rapture/kingdom. I have to disagree with that notion. The 7th trumpet is when the resurrection takes place as per the dead are judged etc. This cannot happen without the coming of Jesus in the air. He will not come before that. 2 Tim 4:1- I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Pup,

        I have been going over some of the latest posts in this thread. I guess I glossed over rather quickly your last post I read and concentrated pretty much on the 7 thunders part.However if you are saying that (in the previous sentences) that there is some (enlarged) period of time between the 7th trumpet and the rapture/kingdom. I have to disagree with that notion. The 7th trumpet is when the resurrection takes place as per the dead are judged etc. This cannot happen without the coming of Jesus in the air. He will not come before that. 2 Tim 4:1- I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Good point.  And only those judged to be Christ's are resurrected and made immortal.  The rest have to wait until after the millennium.

[The Light]

14 hours ago, Uriah said:

I have to disagree with that notion. The 7th trumpet is when the resurrection takes place as per the dead are judged etc. This cannot happen without the coming of Jesus in the air. He will not come before that. 2 Tim 4:1- I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

How do you know that he will not come before that? What about the secret pretribulation rapture?

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Good point.  And only those judged to be Christ's are resurrected and made immortal.  The rest have to wait until after the millennium.

Absolutely!

 

[Uriah]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

How do you know that he will not come before that? What about the secret pretribulation rapture?

Hi The Light

HAHAHA, right. Its so secret that it cannot be found in the scriptures!

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi The Light

HAHAHA, right. Its so secret that it cannot be found in the scriptures!

Hi Uriah,

I understand why you are having trouble finding the pretribulation rapture because it seems God tells us that we won't know when He is coming. Interestingly enough He tells us that we won't know when He is coming right after He tells us exactly when He is coming. Conclusion: In an hour that you think not, the son of Man cometh.

Here is the secret pretribulation rapture which will occur when summer is near.

 

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

¹³ The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

Edited May 9, 2019 by The Light

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Hi Uriah,

I understand why you are having trouble finding the pretribulation rapture because it seems God tells us that we won't know when He is coming. Interestingly enough He tells us that we won't know when He is coming right after He tells us exactly when He is coming. Conclusion: In an hour that you think not, the son of Man cometh.

Here is the secret pretribulation rapture which will occur when summer is near.

 

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

¹³ The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

Hello The Light

Yes, Jesus said no man knows the day or hour. And He specifically gave us signs to know when it is "even at the door"!!!! We are told to "watch" and when to "look up, etc. Paul said people already knew about the times and seasons. So I don't get the idea that we will be caught off guard as to when it is very very very close.

[Uriah]

21 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Just a quick review.   When Matthew & Mark speak of no man knowing THAT day,  I think you recognize that he is referring to the severity of that day when the KOG and the DOTL arrive in simultaneous fashion. 

 Whereas M & M say "that day", Luke says that the KOG is (only) nigh when these things takes place.   This is because Luke does not include "the gathering of the elect".  The conclusion of which is that the gathering of the elect is the arrival of the kingdom AND the King.   Now add to this that both M & M AND Luke includes Jesus coming in a cloud(s) with power and glory,  [in the things that will take place BEFORE the kingdom arrives] tells us that this coming in the clouds is a separate event to the arrival of the kingdom that takes place BEFORE.   Though it is not explicitly revealed, that is what Paul says in 2 Tim 4:1..."at his appearing(epiphaneia) AND his kingdom".    In referring to the church Paul says that WE shall receive rest from the Lord and he will recompense/ avenge us when he revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance in 2 Thess 1.  This language is paralleled in Isa 66 which parallels Rev 12 and Daniel 12, when Michael stands up and kicks Satan out of heaven.  

Verse list:    
Isa 66:15-16 KJV    For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
2Th 1:6-8 KJV    Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Dan 12:1-2 KJV    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:7 KJV    And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Rev 12:1-6 KJV    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 

*[[Rev 12:13]] KJV* And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN which brought forth the man child.

Before the woman disappears into the wilderness,  Satan (recognizes) is cast out.   This great wonder (sign) in heaven is seen just before Satan is cast out and she disappears for 1260 days, afterward.   All of this adds up to being the sign that Matthew speaks of as being the "sign of the son of man IN HEAVEN".

*[[Rev 12:14]] KJV* And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

But there is more evidence found in Daniel 7 when the kingdom of God is given to the son of man and it says that the saints shall "take the kingdom".  There is not one principal figure that rules the fourth kingdom,  but two.   This is illustrated by the death of the little horn [his body given to the burning flame]  and another that shall arise after that shall rule for time, times & dividing of time... in essence,  42 months. 

Verse list:    
Dan 7:24-27 KJV    And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise AFTER THEM; and he shall be DIVERSE from the FIRST, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a TIME and TIMES and the DIVIDING of TIME. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

In a period of 3.5 years [time, times and half a time] will always contain 43 or 44 months.   This is based on the  lunar Hebrew calendar of 29.52 days/ month.   This is what we see in Rev 13 where is speaks of the beast from the sea and the beast from the earth being allowed to continue and rule (a beast is a kingdom)  for 42 months, that starts with the healing of the wounded beast from the sea.   I think you would agree that the man of sin is one or the other of these two beasts.   The kingdom of the beast arises after Satan is cast out of heaven approximately 1-2 months later.   Now notice these words: 

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

*[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The words "is come" in

Rev 12v10 is in the aorist tense that does not convey the time of action,  but implies that it is near, in the sense of being imminent.   But in Rev 11:15,18, the wrath of God  and judgment of the saints and prophets (who are dead), is an aorist participle,  meaning that it takes place at that moment in time.   I hope this clears things up.   Remember the words of Jesus: 

*[[Mat 24:44]] KJV* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Many expect him to come at Armageddon,  but are you expecting him to come,  ON THAT DAY? The day that no man knows (of)!

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

 

 

PuP

I'm sorry my friend but it is not so complicated. Jesus is returning in such a way as to be seen by all (Rev. ch. 1). We don't know the day or hour, but ti will be quite evident that it is extremely close, according to Jesus. And your last question is what? A word play? OK, yes I am expecting Him on that day I don't know of and wasn't expecting ...that is the day I was expecting!!! That clears it up, right?

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

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Hello The Light

Yes, Jesus said no man knows the day or hour. And He specifically gave us signs to know when it is "even at the door"!!!!

Good morning Uriah,

I think the reason that people can't see the pretribulation rapture is because the details are missed. I notice you quoted "even at the door". The scriptures says, "even at the DOORS".

Matt 24

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The details say He is coming more than once.

Luke 17:22

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

 

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We are told to "watch" and when to "look up, etc. Paul said people already knew about the times and seasons. So I don't get the idea that we will be caught off guard as to when it is very very very close.

Exactly. This is the gathering that occurs prior to the Day of the Lord, the day of his wrath. That day will not take them unaware as they know the TIMES AND SEASONS. And yet we are told that the GOODMAN will not know when the thief is coming. That's because he comes more than once. When He comes before the day of the Lord, ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. When he comes before the tribulation (before the seals are opened) it will be in secret. It's all in the details.

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by The Light